Is Damo's Neigong Program for Me?

[MetaDao]

19 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

From what little I know about your system, would it be fair to say the nature of the pre-heaven treasures are one of the main points of disagreement between your teacher and Damo?

 

I.e. while Damo requires stillness-based practices to work with the Yuan Jing your teacher prefers (correct me if I'm wrong) a moving method?

Well, to understand this, you must understand the nature of stillness and movement.

 

I believe it is written in Damo’s book that the nature of pre-heaven is stillness, so we must still the mind and still the post-natal Jing to increase our chances of contacting the pre-heaven.

 

However, the divine law of containment of Yin/Yang should be understood here.

 

Yin is contained within Yang and vice-versa.

 

This implies that stillness is contained within movement and vice versa. It is indeed possible to work with the pre-heaven through movement. 
 

The point of disagreement is that you don’t really need to do qigong and Neigong prior to Neidan. You can move straight into Neidan. It still takes a number of years, and the goals are different. Your physiology will forever be changed when Yuan Jing replenishes and melts. It’s a pre-heaven firing process 

Edited November 23, 2022 by MetaDao

[Wilhelm]

10 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Well, to understand this, you must understand the nature of stillness and movement.

 

I believe it is written in Damo’s book that the nature of pre-heaven is stillness, so we must still the mind and still the post-natal Jing to increase our chances of contacting the pre-heaven.

 

However, the divine law of containment of Yin/Yang should be understood here.

 

Yin is contained within Yang and vice-versa.

 

This implies that stillness is contained within movement and vice versa. It is indeed possible to work with the pre-heaven through movement. 

That's all good

 

 

My only point was that were probably gonna get confused when mixing models (i.e. you probably remember Damo splits moving work into Qigong and Dao Yin based on whether the body's internal structures are being mobilized, and I imagine your teacher splits them into Nei Dan/not Nei Dan based on whether the pre-heaven treasures are being worked with).

 

I don't think it's a big deal to say these two models are in conflict - so long as there's a teacher with a development track the practitioner will be able to realize for themself whether they're stagnating. 

 

And maybe one system disagrees with the other but since we're all at the first couple stages of the process that's just theory anyways imo.

[forestofclarity]

I would recommend checking some of his free stuff out first. Some of his public stuff is straight form the academy, so you can get a taste of it right away. There is a foundations set of videos he has posted.

 

My main issue was with the sheer number of practices and the time involved. Also, there is a lot of moving stuff that I personally don't think you can really do without in-person feedback and adjustments. 

 

For example: 

 

[Master Logray]

Why Damo and other teachers provide courses on Neigong, Qigong, Inner martial arts and theories, but not Neidan, nor go directly to Neidan?  It has not nothing to do with pre-heaven something, dantian and so on.  It is a money problem.  If Damo offers a direct Neidan course, the technicalities can be covered in a few hours.  Then the students can go meditating day and night, going back to him for questions in weeks or months.  When they are ready, then they can have a deeper lesson.  This process can take years or decades. 

 

The problem is how to charge?  a big lump sum payment on day 1?  a fee for the initial course?  a small monthly subscription?   Bearing in mind the teacher has nothing much to do in the whole process.   I don't see how it is commercially viable.  It may work in a temple or monastery or religious organization context when the teacher's survival don't depend on it.

 

So we see the teachers are teaching mostly movements.  Taichi and long Qigong like Big Swan are the most ideal choices.

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

That's all good

 

 

My only point was that were probably gonna get confused when mixing models (i.e. you probably remember Damo splits moving work into Qigong and Dao Yin based on whether the body's internal structures are being mobilized, and I imagine your teacher splits them into Nei Dan/not Nei Dan based on whether the pre-heaven treasures are being worked with).

 

I don't think it's a big deal to say these two models are in conflict - so long as there's a teacher with a development track the practitioner will be able to realize for themself whether they're stagnating. 

 

And maybe one system disagrees with the other but since we're all at the first couple stages of the process that's just theory anyways imo.

Agreed on most points 
 

I still believe it’s a fact that the system Damo teaches isn’t really the most streamlined for Neidan.

 

3 years in the lineage I am within with 2-3hrs of practice a day, following it as you should, I think you get further towards the destination of Neidan, taking two equal beginners.

 

I think there’s such a thing as just a better designed system of practice.

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by MetaDao

[Wilhelm]

17 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Agreed on most points 
 

I still believe it’s a fact that the system Damo teaches isn’t really the most streamlined for Neidan.

 

3 years in the lineage I am within with 2-3hrs of practice, following it as you should, I think you get further towards the destination of Neidan, taking two equal beginners

Could be!  Those sorts of nuances are beyond me, as I expect they'll be till I get a handle on a single system first.

Edited November 23, 2022 by Wilhelm

[Wilhelm]

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Why Damo and other teachers provide courses on Neigong, Qigong, Inner martial arts and theories, but not Neidan, nor go directly to Neidan?  It has not nothing to do with pre-heaven something, dantian and so on.  It is a money problem.  If Damo offers a direct Neidan course, the technicalities can be covered in a few hours.  Then the students can go meditating day and night, going back to him for questions in weeks or months.  When they are ready, then they can have a deeper lesson.  This process can take years or decades. 

 

The problem is how to charge?  a big lump sum payment on day 1?  a fee for the initial course?  a small monthly subscription?   Bearing in mind the teacher has nothing much to do in the whole process.   I don't see how it is commercially viable.  It may work in a temple or monastery or religious organization context when the teacher's survival don't depend on it.

 

So we see the teachers are teaching mostly movements.  Taichi and long Qigong like Big Swan are the most ideal choices.

Did you read his alchemy book?  I think that'd be the cheapest way I know of.  From there you've got weekend workshops, the online academy, in-person training at the new school etc. in ascending order of expense.

[Bogge]

Ok, cool!

Now I got another contender - authenticneigong.com

I am up for more choices for online courses!

Thanks.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

4 minutes ago, Bogge said:

Ok, cool!

Now I got another contender - authenticneigong.com

I am up for more choices for online courses!

Thanks.

 

Check out the videos of the masters he learned from and see if it interests you

 

 

[Bogge]

10 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

 

Check out the videos of the masters he learned from and see if it interests you

 

 

It's really not that important for me to develop powers, healing abilities would be cool though...

I have read alot of Sivanandas stuff, a yogi. So kinda believe in liberation of the soul. Escaping the reincarnation cycle.

But for some reason Qigong has done more for me than Yogic programs. So I want to keep going in that direction.

Cheers.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

7 hours ago, Bogge said:

It's really not that important for me to develop powers, healing abilities would be cool though...

I have read alot of Sivanandas stuff, a yogi. So kinda believe in liberation of the soul. Escaping the reincarnation cycle.

But for some reason Qigong has done more for me than Yogic programs. So I want to keep going in that direction.

Cheers.

The abilities are just a side effect, but the main point is to show that the practice actually works. In this lineage it’s seen as a marker that you have developed enough to be able to do it. It just coincidentally happens to be a useful skill!

[Taoist Texts]

15 hours ago, Master Logray said:

It is a money problem.  If Damo offers a direct Neidan course, the technicalities can be covered in a few hours.  Then the students can go meditating day and night, going back to him for questions in weeks or months.  When they are ready, then they can have a deeper lesson.  This process can take years or decades. 

 

The problem is how to charge?  a big lump sum payment on day 1?  a fee for the initial course?  a small monthly subscription?   Bearing in mind the teacher has nothing much to do in the whole process.   I don't see how it is commercially viable. 

This is how it is done now:

Quote

 

http://www.ptbarnum.org/egress.html

Barnum's American Museum was so popular that people would spend the entire day there. This cut into profits, as the museum would be too full to squeeze another person in. In classic Barnum style, old P.T. put up signs that said "This Way to the Egress." Many customers followed the signs, not realizing that Egress was a fancy word for "Exit." They kept on looking for this strange new attraction, the "Egress". Many patrons followed the signs right out the door! Once they had exited the building, the door would lock behind them, and if they wanted to get back in, they had to pay another admission charge!

 

 

 

Quote

If Damo offers a direct Neidan course, the technicalities can be covered in a few hours.  Then the students can go meditating day and night, going back to him for questions in weeks or months.  When they are ready, then they can have a deeper lesson.  This process can take years or decades. 

Hmm so is it a few hours or decades?

[Trunk]

On 11/22/2022 at 4:08 PM, Bogge said:

I am after spiritual practice, the martial arts stuff doesnt really interest me.

I had to do a google search for the definition of Neigong. And mostly martial arts came up.

 

Similarly, the martial part of all this does not interest me, either, however …

 

You’ll find that in many internal arts traditions there is:

- a medical~health aspect (hinduism: ayurvedic medicine, Daoism: Chinese medicine, etc)

- body-wisdom-discipline (yoga, martial arts)

- spiritual (meditation, etc)

 

In the Daoist internal arts, often all three (martial, health~medical, spiritual) of the above are embodied in their ‘martial’ arts, specifically:

- tai chi

- xing yi

- bagua

 

Personally, I really have no interest in the martial aspects of any of those, but I’ve found the practice of them for other purposes to be very very rich.  I think that’s a pretty common interest and experience of them, these days.

 

So, when you look up neigong, that’s why you’ll find it very interwoven with the Daoist martial arts but - probably most of the time - people are learning & teaching those arts for the body-changing and conscious integration that is part of the spiritual path.

 

cheers,

Trunk

 

[Barnaby]

14 minutes ago, Trunk said:

So, when you look up neigong, that’s why you’ll find it very interwoven with the Daoist martial arts

 

Very true.

 

In fact, it was only hanging around here that I ever came across Nei Gong being used to refer to a spiritual development practice.

 

Before I'd only ever seen it used to describe the specific "energy" practices of different Chinese martial styles.

 

[Barnaby]

47 minutes ago, Trunk said:

So, when you look up neigong, that’s why you’ll find it very interwoven with the Daoist martial arts

 

And not just Daoist, incidentally. I believe there are Shaolin Nei Gong systems too.

[Trunk]

1 hour ago, Barnaby said:

In fact, it was only hanging around here that I ever came across Nei Gong being used to refer to a spiritual development practice.

 

Before I'd only ever seen it used to describe the specific "energy" practices of different Chinese martial styles.

Oh, *yikes*.

My personal pt of view has always been the opposite: nei gong = fundamentally a spiritual development, that is incidentally used in the asian martial arts.

 

43 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

And not just Daoist, incidentally. I believe there are Shaolin Nei Gong systems too.

 

I'm not super clear on which schools are Daoist, and which aren't, but ...

Just sort of this cultural linguistic stream: anywhere you see the term "nei gong" it's likely that an integral martial art is somewhere in that system.  That does NOT mean that nei gong is inherently martial, and you can (and most modern people *do*) practice these (xing yi, bagua, tai chi) without martial emphasis, often with no martial application at all... maybe push-hands among friends, if you're lucky.

 

THIS:

There is really specific, effective body-changing in the daoist internal martial arts that is *very* helpful towards integrating transpersonal energies & awareness (spiritual stuff).  A lot of consciousness junkies (meant in a good way, with a wink) get into this area for this reason exclusively.

 

Trunk

[freeform]

‘Neigong’ is internal skill… so martial arts will use that term to mean exercises that develop the internal (rather than the more normal external) mechanics…

 

Non-martial schools often use the Neigong label for methods that can be considered ‘more advanced than qigong’. This comes mostly from the fact that qigong usually involves movement to create internal change… whereas ‘Neigong’ in this case is generally more static, and change is created internally without using external mechanics.

 

Damo uses the Neigong term a little differently still. As far as I understand what he calls Neigong is the process of inner transformation (it’s the process not necessarily the methods or exercises themselves).

 

In reality, it doesn’t really matter as long as you understand it in your own context.

[Barnaby]

36 minutes ago, Trunk said:

There is really specific, effective body-changing in the daoist internal martial arts that is *very* helpful towards integrating transpersonal energies & awareness (spiritual stuff). 

 

Agreed 100% 

[MetaDao]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

As far as I understand what he calls Neigong is the process of inner transformation

Facts.

 

The point I am trying to make is that Neigong is not a prerequisite process. It can be a parallel process with Neidan.
 

Neidan is alchemy involving the pre-heaven substances for spiritual growth.
 

The internal process and side methods involved to help this along are Neigong in the context I work within.

 

Qigong is exclusively post-heaven.

 

Neigong is a combination of both pre and post-heaven. But it does not include replenishment or refinement of pre-heaven.

 

Neidan is entirely pre-heaven. Includes replenishment, refinement, and fusion.

 

So, Neidan lineages include the Neigong process to help things along and speed it up. It can be parallel.

 

If a system has Neigong without parallel Neidan practice, it is, by my definition, more inefficient 

Edited November 25, 2022 by MetaDao

[Master Logray]

For those who are confused by all these foreign terms Neixxxx.   Actually they can be distinguished outwardly.

 

External Martial Arts (Wai Gong) - those kicking, punching, jumping, flipping back and forth quickly

 

Internal Martial Art - slow movement speed training process, looks soft, fight fast

 

Nei Gong ( complement the external martial arts) - standing, squatting, stances, slow and repetitive strenuous exercises

 

Nei Dan (alchemy) - sitting or lying down

 

 

i.e. from Kung Fu Panda to hibernating bear.

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by Master Logray

[MetaDao]

25 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

For those who are confused by all these foreign terms Neixxxx.   Actually they can be distinguished outwardly.

 

External Martial Arts (Wai Gong) - those kicking, punching, jumping, flipping back and forth quickly

 

Internal Martial Art - slow movement speed training process, looks soft, fight fast

 

Nei Gong ( complement the external martial arts) - standing, squatting, stances, slow and repetitive strenuous exercises

 

Nei Dan (alchemy) - sitting or lying down

 

 

i.e. from Kung Fu Panda to hibernating bear.

 

 

 

Wrong. It’s fine if those are your definitions, but those are violated by contradictions.

 

Alchemy is not done only by sitting or lying down, so that definition is wrong. You can’t define internal processes based on movements like that.

 

Not trying to be an ass or difficult. I’m just very passionate about getting these definitions correct and clear

 

But, if that’s a joke then sure it is kinda funny 😄 

Edited November 25, 2022 by MetaDao

[Master Logray]

21 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Wrong. It’s fine if those are your definitions, but those are violated by contradictions.

 

Alchemy is not done only by sitting or lying down, so that definition is wrong. You can’t define internal processes based on movements like that.

 

Not trying to be an ass or difficult. I’m just very passionate about getting these definitions correct and clear

 

But, if that’s a joke then sure it is kinda funny 😄 

 

I say distinguish them (for anyone confused by all these).  Not what they are or what they are for.  Taoist, Buddhist, Christian, Muslim clergies all wear different clothing, right?

 

 

[Master Logray]

On 11/24/2022 at 3:29 AM, Wilhelm said:

Did you read his alchemy book?  I think that'd be the cheapest way I know of.  From there you've got weekend workshops, the online academy, in-person training at the new school etc. in ascending order of expense.

 

Only his Neigong book.  The alchemy book seems to be not worth.  His Neigong is 600 pages, while his alchemy book is half the size, higher price.

[freeform]

14 hours ago, MetaDao said:

The point I am trying to make is that Neigong is not a prerequisite process.

Yeah I understand - I disagree… but I also realise that there are many ways up the mountain

 

Most of us are starting out not at the very peak of health. We have tons of baggage… we’ve been depleted, our channels have closed and our organs and internal processes are in disarray… Our emotions are easily triggered, our mind is dull and unfocused… our bodies are in a regular fight or flight mode… Our minds are completely entranced by the dramatic spectacle of the acquired self…

 

If you haven’t built the channels to a high level… if you haven’t cleared most sick qi… if your inner system is not in relative balance and harmony…

 

Then adding the incredible amounts of power generated through alchemical methods will simply fry the system.

 

Of course it depends on the methods… not every alchemical system generates or requires the same level of qi… some go for refinement and subtlety over raw power… others focus on mobilisation and flow…

 

In my opinion - you need all of them. 
 

Imagine you’re an incandescent lightbulb… you’re starting out with a filament that can handle say 30 watts…

 

With Neigong we (my teachers particular approach) want to build up the strength and thickness of that filament until it can handle 3000 watts.

 

Then we use alchemy to generate ever more power to get to that wattage… Then we refine the output… so that there’s less heat generated by the bulb and instead more light generated.

 

Putting 3000watts in a 30watt bulb will result in the bulb popping.

 

Thats what qi gong and Neigong (and even the martial arts to some extent) are generally used for.

 

The reality is that the distinction I made above is not really that clear… there’s a lot of overlap in the process - but this is a simplified mental model.

 

I’ve trained with teachers that don’t build up from the bottom first (thickening the filament) - and they go for the light directly. The result is a bunch of fried students… only a minority get anywhere (and they’re the ones that have trained from the bottom-up in other schools)… And even they tend to reach a level beyond which they’re not able to progress…

[MetaDao]

43 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yeah I understand - I disagree… but I also realise that there are many ways up the mountain

 

Most of us are starting out not at the very peak of health. We have tons of baggage… we’ve been depleted, our channels have closed and our organs and internal processes are in disarray… Our emotions are easily triggered, our mind is dull and unfocused… our bodies are in a regular fight or flight mode… Our minds are completely entranced by the dramatic spectacle of the acquired self…

 

If you haven’t built the channels to a high level… if you haven’t cleared most sick qi… if your inner system is not in relative balance and harmony…

 

Then adding the incredible amounts of power generated through alchemical methods will simply fry the system.

 

Of course it depends on the methods… not every alchemical system generates or requires the same level of qi… some go for refinement and subtlety over raw power… others focus on mobilisation and flow…

 

In my opinion - you need all of them. 
 

Imagine you’re an incandescent lightbulb… you’re starting out with a filament that can handle say 30 watts…

 

With Neigong we (my teachers particular approach) want to build up the strength and thickness of that filament until it can handle 3000 watts.

 

Then we use alchemy to generate ever more power to get to that wattage… Then we refine the output… so that there’s less heat generated by the bulb and instead more light generated.

 

Putting 3000watts in a 30watt bulb will result in the bulb popping.

 

Thats what qi gong and Neigong (and even the martial arts to some extent) are generally used for.

 

The reality is that the distinction I made above is not really that clear… there’s a lot of overlap in the process - but this is a simplified mental model.

 

I’ve trained with teachers that don’t build up from the bottom first (thickening the filament) - and they go for the light directly. The result is a bunch of fried students… only a minority get anywhere (and they’re the ones that have trained from the bottom-up in other schools)… And even they tend to reach a level beyond which they’re not able to progress…

I see what you’re saying, but I still disagree. The majority of the preparation process you speak of is carried out while building up power slowly. Yes, if diet is poor and instructions aren’t followed, you can become fried, but that is on the student as well as the teacher.

 

Now, can this process  be carried out safely through pre-recorded videos? No, not really. It requires the personal touch of the teacher.

I think what you say is true. It depends on the methods. The particular methods I speak of though have been carried out by many students without a glass-ceiling effect 

 

The issues you speak of, in my opinion, are issues that arise due to a poorly designed system of practice. The most optimal system works on those things in a very parallel way with the least amount of risk. For example, attaining the elixir, as explained to me, is like building an engine. Take a car manufacturing plant. If a manufacturer is developing engines for cars and 5/10 of these engines malfunction, I would say the creation process is flawed. If then 2 more out of these 10 engines were completed but never switched on, then the system of creation is definitely flawed. Only 3/10 engines that are worked on with maximum effort ever make it. That, to me, is an ineffective system of practice. It may work in certain people, but it is not optimized at all.
 

There is always risk in alchemy. I think it falls upon the students and teachers to be aware of the risks and navigate them accordingly. This is why you cannot just follow methods without the guidance of a master. It isn’t safe. My teacher has made me aware that I cannot practice more than he allows me to as it can damage the channels. He’s also made it clear that poor diet can drain you. If the risks are made clear, the student should adjust accordingly for success. In addition to this, the teacher monitors the student’s state from week to week to see if there are any issues that need to be addressed. 
 

As a general rule for the public, yes, I can see how a Neigong system is the safest entry point for Neidan. It provides a very good foundation. It’s not entirely necessary though if you come across the right system. But again, I guess this comes down to fate. Maybe students that damage themselves just have that fate 🤷‍♂️

Edited November 25, 2022 by MetaDao