Siddhis in Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras - Vibhuti pada.

[dwai]

A discussion on siddhis and their value/importance in the original yoga/tantra traditions. The purpose of yoga is not in the realm of the ordinary/fluctuating mind. The objective of yoga is Self Realization. 

 

Quote

Patañjali warns - 
 

&न्ब्स्प्;ते समाधावुपसर्गा व्युत्थाने सिद्धयः ॥ ३.३७ ॥

 te samādhāvupasargā vyutthāne siddhayaḥ || 3.37 ||

(37) They (these powers) are impediments to samādhi, but are accomplishments in a normal fluctuating state of the mind.

Ancient and Modern interpretation:

[Read “Siddhis—Supernormal powers” first]

Vyāsa says,

“Powers mentioned in this chapter are hindrances to the attainment of samādhi as they cause disturbence to the engrossed mind. But they are acquisitions for normal fluctuating mind.”

 

[dwai]

That would then beg the question, why describe these siddhis at all? 
 

These are the equivalent of statutory warnings in these ancient texts. 

1. describe and demystify these epiphenomena 
2. reinforce the point that these are distractions at best and beware of falling into the trap of getting enamored by the siddhis 
3. Focus the student’s attention on the goal - samadhi/Self realization

From a daoist perspective, Master Liao in one of his lectures explains these phenomena via the following parable.

 

Quote

There was a daoist temple where an old master and his students lived and practiced. The master had many students. 
 

Some outdoor students, some inner-door students, and some disciples. 
 

The inner door students and disciples liked to compare 

 among themselves their attainments. Some would say, “I hear the most divine sound”, some others would say, “I see the most brilliant light”, while others would say, “ I can see the future,” and so on. Every evening they’d gather in the courtyard after completing their duties and practices and go on in this way. the outer door students would eagerly listen to their seniors, hoping to grasp some nuggets of wisdom and insight/advice in the process. 
 

One outer door student wouldn’t pay any attention to this. He would sweep the courtyard and sit quietly.
 

One day, a senior disciple beckoned the quiet outer door student to come and share his experiences. When asked, he said, “I see nothing, I hear nothing, I smell nothing. I must be really pathetic a student.”

 

Some students would laugh at him,  while  others would try to help him out of compassion. “Try this technique, or that one” they’d say, “and you too will start having all these experiences!” 
Many years passed by, and one day, the old master, who was doing quite poorly health wise, decided to anoint one of the students as his heir. 
 

All the inner door students, disciples etc were very excited, in anticipation of their imminent appointment. To their chagrin, the quiet outer door student was selected by the master. Angry, they questioned the master - “master, this guy is an idiot, he doesn’t have any experiences, any powers, why is it that you selected him?”

The master replied, “these phenomena arise because of impurities in the mind. A mind that is perfectly still and empty will never experience any such things. You all have to work harder to develop your mind, and empty yourselves of your pride.”

Master Liao gives the example of a flame, which when pure, shines brightly and produces heat. If you introduce impurities, notice how the flame will change color, produce smoke, etc. The appearance of such phenomena is the result of impurities in the mind. They are indicators,  not of attainments, but of how much more work is needed to be done by the student to purify the mind. 

 

 

 

[doc benway]

46 minutes ago, dwai said:

“Powers mentioned in this chapter are hindrances to the attainment of samādhi as they cause disturbence to the engrossed mind. But they are acquisitions for normal fluctuating mind.”

 

What is the meaning of "engrossed mind" in this statement?

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, steve said:

 

What is the meaning of "engrossed mind" in this statement?

Edited: Engrossed mind here means the mind that is engrossed in meditative absorption 

Edited November 25, 2022 by dwai

[doc benway]

Interesting way to put it. 

Does the yoga paradigm distinguish between the stability of mind that comes from effortful restraining vs opening and releasing? These are different stages in the meditative process in my experience ( and tradition). “Engrossed” to me suggests effort and restraint.

Although that may be my projection, of course.

[dwai]

15 minutes ago, steve said:

Interesting way to put it. 

Does the yoga paradigm distinguish between the stability of mind that comes from effortful restraining vs opening and releasing? These are different stages in the meditative process in my experience ( and tradition). “Engrossed” to me suggests effort and restraint.

Although that may be my projection, of course.

No you’re quite right. Once the with-effort absorption is learned, it becomes effortless and released. 

[Taoist Texts]

15 hours ago, dwai said:

Patañjali warns - 
 

&न्ब्स्प्;ते समाधावुपसर्गा व्युत्थाने सिद्धयः ॥ ३.३७ ॥

 te samādhāvupasargā vyutthāne siddhayaḥ || 3.37 ||

(37) They (these powers) are impediments to samādhi,

This is not an adequate transl, but lets take it at face value for now.

 

A question: do 'these powers' manifest after attaining samadhi or before attaining samadhi?

[Bindi]

15 hours ago, dwai said:

A discussion on siddhis and their value/importance in the original yoga/tantra traditions. The purpose of yoga is not in the realm of the ordinary/fluctuating mind. The objective of yoga is Self Realization. 

 

 

Patañjali warns - 
 

&न्ब्स्प्;ते समाधावुपसर्गा व्युत्थाने सिद्धयः ॥ ३.३७ ॥

 te samādhāvupasargā vyutthāne siddhayaḥ || 3.37 ||

(37) They (these powers) are impediments to samādhi, but are accomplishments in a normal fluctuating state of the mind.

Ancient and Modern interpretation:

[Read “Siddhis—Supernormal powers” first]

Vyāsa says,

“Powers mentioned in this chapter are hindrances to the attainment of samādhi as they cause disturbence to the engrossed mind. But they are acquisitions for normal fluctuating mind.”

 

The difference is that Samadhi is not the aim of neidan, creating an immortal subtle energy body is the aim of neidan. Two different paths, two different attitudes to siddhis and never the twain shall meet. 

[old3bob]

any basic or advanced power of the mind is a tool, and a tool properly used (per dharma) is fine or normal so to speak. Thus such could be a blessing or a curse depending on said usage by Spirit or by ego.  Btw. the Self is not created nor limited to or by any astral or casual body, bodies which still have relative length of existence; which relates to why even Lord Brahma, known as creator, exists for the incredibly long cosmic "lifetime".   (but still "returns")  

 

Some say, "who are you, who-who are you, I really want to know..."

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by old3bob

[dwai]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

This is not an adequate transl, but lets take it at face value for now.

 

A question: do 'these powers' manifest after attaining samadhi or before attaining samadhi?

Pray do share your translation  

There are different siddhis. The side ones appear before samadhi.

 

Those that matter are the different samadhis that are the outcome of yoga. 

Edited November 26, 2022 by dwai

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

There are different siddhis. The side ones appear before samadhi.

 

Those that matter are the different samadhis that are the outcome of yoga. 

ah all righty then. This makes our previous dispute totally moot so thank you.

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Pray do share your translation

of course. Like i said the conventional opinion on all traditional matters is completely, 180 degrees opposite to the truth...it is fascinating actually how it always works that way

 

 te these are samādhāvupasargā from samadhi  vyutthāne derived siddhayaḥ siddhis

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

ah all righty then. This makes our previous dispute totally moot so thank you.

I think you misunderstand. What is considered siddhis by the monkey-mind are what are considered to be inconsequential.  We are not in agreement and the point is not “totally moot”.  
 

According  to the sage, the only siddhis worthy of consideration are the states of samadhi. 

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

of course. Like i said the conventional opinion on all traditional matters is completely, 180 degrees opposite to the truth...it is fascinating actually how it always works that way

 

 te these are samādhāvupasargā from samadhi  vyutthāne derived siddhayaḥ siddhis

 

That’s utter nonsense  

Te Samadhav upasarga vyutthane siddhayah.

Te = they; Samadhau = in Samadhi; Upasarga = obstacles; Vyutthane = in the state of out-turned-ness; siddhayah = powers.

They are obstacles in the way of Samadhi and power when the mind is outward-turned.

 

or in other words, these siddhis are obstacles to entering samadhi. 

Edited November 26, 2022 by dwai

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

 We are not in agreement and the point is not “totally moot”.

i did not say we are. The point is made moot by you first saying one thing and then saying the opposite of it.  First you said that siddhis are not relevant or are impediment  then you say some are some are not.

 

Quote

 

moot:having little or no practical relevance, typically because the subject is too uncertain to allow a decision.

"the whole matter is becoming increasingly moot"

 

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

or in other words, these siddhis are obstacles to entering samadhi. 

did not you just said that there are siddhis that matters? You said:

Quote

Those that matter are the different samadhis that are the outcome of yoga. 

i think you typed samadhi instead of siddhi. sorry you sound confused. Please look at this. this is from the link that you provided as a proof of your claims:

Quote

In sūtra II.45, samādhi itself is called as siddhi.

 

i am sorry again but this link that you provided as an authoritative proof sounds very confused as well. How can a siddhi which is samadhi be an impediment to samadhi?

 

 

[dwai]

58 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i did not say we are. The point is made moot by you first saying one thing and then saying the opposite of it.  First you said that siddhis are not relevant or are impediment  then you say some are some are not.

I did no such thing, but I can see how someone who doesn’t understand/know the subject can get confused. 

58 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

 

did not you just said that there are siddhis that matters? You said:

i think you typed samadhi instead of siddhi. sorry you sound confused. Please look at this. this is from the link that you provided as a proof of your claims:

I meant that samadhi is the only siddhis that matter in yoga  

58 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

i am sorry again but this link that you provided as an authoritative proof sounds very confused as well. How can a siddhi which is samadhi be an impediment to samadhi?

 

 

The link is of a transliteration of Patanjali’s yoga sutras. Your confusion is entirely your own doing. Though if you wanted to sincerely learn, I’ll be happy to explain it to you. 

[Taoist Texts]

14 minutes ago, dwai said:

Though if you wanted to sincerely learn, I’ll be happy to explain it to you. 

Dear Dwai i keep pointing to the conflicts in you position but you do not respond to my questions. I will try one more time.

 

Your translation says:

Quote

 

Patañjali warns - 
 

&न्ब्स्प्;ते समाधावुपसर्गा व्युत्थाने सिद्धयः ॥ ३.३७ ॥

 te samādhāvupasargā vyutthāne siddhayaḥ || 3.37 ||

(37) They (these powers) are impediments to samādhi,

 

the link right above that you provided

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/samadhi#yoga

says

In sūtra II.45, samādhi itself is called as siddhi. 

https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/yoga-sutras-study/d/doc628779.html

 

Could you please explain how Patanjali both says how siddhi are impediments to samadhi AND that samadhi is siddhi. Surely those are conflicting statements? 

 

Thanks;)

 

 

[dwai]

6 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Dear Dwai i keep pointing to the conflicts in you position but you do not respond to my questions. I will try one more time.

 

Your translation says:

the link right above that you provided

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/samadhi#yoga

says

In sūtra II.45, samādhi itself is called as siddhi. 

https://www.wisdomlib.org/hinduism/book/yoga-sutras-study/d/doc628779.html

 

Could you please explain how Patanjali both says how siddhi are impediments to samadhi AND that samadhi is siddhi. Surely those are conflicting statements? 

 

Thanks;)

 

 

Siddhi literally means accomplishment/attainment in Sanskrit. 
 

Edit: Since the sadhya (purpose) of yoga is Self-realization, samadhi will be the “siddhi” the sadhaka (practitioner) is interested in. The practice of yoga is called sadhana. 
 

I see how you could be confused - I had assumed you knew the language, given how you claimed to really know the yoga sutras. 

Edited November 26, 2022 by dwai

[Taoist Texts]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

I see how you could be confused

Dear Dwai, you adamantly chose not to answer my direct questions. Please allow me to thank you kindly  for this conversation while bowing out of it;) Namaste!

[dwai]

1 minute ago, Taoist Texts said:

Dear Dwai, you adamantly chose not to answer my direct questions. Please allow me to thank you kindly  for this conversation while bowing out of it;) Namaste!

I did answer you directly many times over. But let me re-explain.

 

In Sanskrit, siddhi literally means attainment. In the yoga sutras, the vibhuti pada outlines several types of attainments. Of which, samadhi is considered the only siddhi that is worthy of a yogi’s pursuit.
 

So, all the other types of siddhi, which are outlined in the vibhuti pada, are considered as distractions that should be avoided by the yogi. 
Thus Patanjali’s statutory warning to all seekers - beware of all accomplishments other than samadhi. 
 

Spoiler

1) Purely Physical accomplishments^[6]

[Read sūtra 3.21 here]

[Read sūtra 3.25 here]

[Read sūtra 3.30-31 here]

[Read sūtra 3.46 here]

2) Mastery through prāṇas and elements and senses^[7]

[Read sūtra 3.39 here]

[Read sūtra 3.40 here]

[Read sūtra 3.42 here]

[Read sūtra 3.44 here]

[Read sūtra 3.45 here]

[Read sūtra 3.47 here]

3) Different categories of knowledge such as tangible, intangible, through cakras^[8] etc.

[Read sūtra 3.16-18 here]

[Read sūtra 3.22 here]

[Read sūtra 3.26-28 here]

[Read sūtra 3.33-34 here]

[Read sūtra 3.49 here]

[Read sūtra 3.52 here]

[Read sūtra 3.54 here]

4) Incorporating more than one personality / mind^[9]

[Read sūtra 3.19 here]

[Read sūtra 3.39 here]

[Read sūtra 4.4 here]—

“Artificially created minds (proceed) from egoism alone”

5) Siddhis through ethics or emotions

Sūtras of strengths achived through yama–niyamas—

[Read sūtra 2.35-44 here]

Cittaprasādana and its effects in—

[Read sūtra 1.33 and sūtra 3.23 here]

6) Celestial and subtle body experiences and mastery

[Read sūtra 1.35-36 here]

[Read sūtra 3.42 here]—

“By saṃyama on the relationship between ākāśa and the power of hearing, divine sense of hearing is gained.”

7) Purely Spiritual accomplishments

Samādhi siddhi—

[Read sūtra 2.45 here]

Samprajñāta and asamprajñāta samādhi—

[Read sūtra 1.17-18 here]

Vivekakhyāti—

[Read sūtra 2.26 here]

 

Namaste 🙏🏾 

[old3bob]

Still the Self makes the choice, while a being can only prepare in various ways;

with the import being that no amount of preparation can bring about a forcing of the Self, which sees all there is to be seen.

Edited November 26, 2022 by old3bob

[Bindi]

10 hours ago, old3bob said:

any basic or advanced power of the mind is a tool, and a tool properly used (per dharma) is fine or normal so to speak. Thus such could be a blessing or a curse depending on said usage by Spirit or by ego.  Btw. the Self is not created nor limited to or by any astral or casual body, bodies which still have relative length of existence; which relates to why even Lord Brahma, known as creator, exists for the incredibly long cosmic "lifetime".   (but still "returns")  

 

Some say, "who are you, who-who are you, I really want to know..."

 

Yogapedia states “The causal body is also known by the Sanskrit term, karana sharira. It is composed of karma and samskara, which are, respectively, the record of the yogi's actions in all states of existence and the experiential impressions and imprints on the mind.” 
 

I agree that samskara and karma need to be cleared, I would see them as blockages in the subtle channels, more the question is what happens when all the subtle channels are cleared, up to and including the central channel, whatever this fully operational subtle energy system looks like I’m calling the immortal body. 
 

Quote

 

The tantras describe an impressive total of 72,000 fine channels, which together with the lotus centers and the three main channels form the “subtle” body of the yogi. In an “ordinary mortal” this network is blocked. The energies cannot flow freely, the chakras are “dead”, the “wheels” are motionless, the perception of spiritual phenomena limited. One also speaks of a “knotting”.

 

Now it is the first task of the yogi to untie these knots in himself or in his pupil, to free and to clean the blocked channels in all directions so as to fill the whole body with divine powers. 

 

http://www.trimondi.de/SDLE/Part-1-07.htm

Edited November 26, 2022 by Bindi

[old3bob]

when individual souls merge into an ocean of Spirit, those once apparently separate individuals can no longer be found in said ocean.

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

when individual souls merge into an ocean of Spirit, those once apparently separate individuals can no longer be found in said ocean.

Isn’t this just your belief? Or have you experienced yourself as an individual soul merged permanently into an ocean of spirit? And even if this was your reality, it doesn’t follow automatically that this is the spiritual purpose of our lives, you might have missed the point of life entirely, who knows? Some belief systems propose that an individual soul remains, I don’t think you can make an absolute statement about it either way except to say this is what you believe. If I were a Christian I could say you have to give your life to Jesus to be saved, and you will be an individual soul in heaven with God afterwards, it doesn’t make it true though. 
 

 

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

when individual souls merge into an ocean of Spirit, those once apparently separate individuals can no longer be found in said ocean.

 

While meditating I am quite often out in the galaxy - where I always meet other entities.  I do not look for human souls out there.

 

A couple of galactic guys like to upgrade the photonic devices that I bought online.  The measurable fields (not inverse square) increased each time.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Lairg

[old3bob]

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

Isn’t this just your belief? Or have you experienced yourself as an individual soul merged permanently into an ocean of spirit? And even if this was your reality, it doesn’t follow automatically that this is the spiritual purpose of our lives, you might have missed the point of life entirely, who knows? Some belief systems propose that an individual soul remains, I don’t think you can make an absolute statement about it either way except to say this is what you believe. If I were a Christian I could say you have to give your life to Jesus to be saved, and you will be an individual soul in heaven with God afterwards, it doesn’t make it true though. 
 

 

 

In the Upanishads (given as revealed teachings from Self realized Rishi's) there are not a multitude of different versions of "Self",  there is just one Self in all...evolution of soul is the great purpose of life but such evolution does not apply to the Self. (and if it did then the Self would be subject to the forces of evolution, change and possible devolution)  There is a "coming and going" spoken of in various religions - which is not yet a final merger or return which is also spoken of.  (thus a point of no going back)  Heaven is great but if it can be attained then it can also be lost whereas the Self already is and can not be lost, only veiled.  My take anyway.

[Lairg]

My very modest experience of siddhis is that mostly they come from useful entities that assist my lightbody.

 

I am very fussy about incoming entities and turf them out every few weeks to test them all again

 

Also there are occasional incoming cubes of energy patterns that provide immediate upgrades to my light body