Siddhis in Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras - Vibhuti pada.

[Bindi]

25 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

In the Upanishads (given as revealed teachings from Self realized Rishi's) there are not a multitude of different versions of "Self",  there is just one Self in all...evolution of soul is the great purpose of life but such evolution does not apply to the Self. (and if it did then the Self would be subject to the forces of evolution, change and possible devolution)  There is a "coming and going" spoken of in various religions - which is not yet a final merger or return which is also spoken of.  (thus a point of no going back)  Heaven is great but if it can be attained then it can also be lost whereas the Self already is and can not be lost, only veiled.  My take anyway.

In your view what is the benefit of soul evolution? 

[EFreethought]

4 hours ago, Lairg said:

 

While meditating I am quite often out in the galaxy - where I always meet other entities.  I do not look for human souls out there.

 

A couple of galactic guys like to upgrade the photonic devices that I bought online.  The measurable fields (not inverse square) increased each time.

 

Could you explain what sort of meditation you do that brings out out into the galaxy?

 

And is this what is meant by "astral travel"?

[Lairg]

Normally I rise up the planes and then go looking for familiar entities including outside the solar system

 

It is not astral travel.  That is a much lower plane

 

 

[EFreethought]

2 hours ago, Lairg said:

Normally I rise up the planes and then go looking for familiar entities including outside the solar system

 

It is not astral travel.  That is a much lower plane

 

Any chance you could point me to some instructors/tutorials?

 

The meditations that I have done have not taken me to other planes, or meeting entities outside the solar system.

 

[Lairg]

After about 5 years of regular meditation, one week there was a daily intervention to show me how to do such things.    Perhaps the same may happen for you.

 

I am very careful about teaching such methods - to avoid my accruing karma from their misuse

 

 

[EFreethought]

24 minutes ago, Lairg said:

After about 5 years of regular meditation, one week there was a daily intervention to show me how to do such things.    Perhaps the same may happen for you.

 

I am very careful about teaching such methods - to avoid my accruing karma from their misuse

 

So are you saying that one day a spirit (or something) just came to you while meditating out of the blue?

[Lairg]

After more than 10 years of its communication in my mind I eventually identified him - a former human, well known in some circles

 

It was not out of the blue.   These days I think he was my father in Atlantean times. 

 

There was a woman I knew well and he told me that he was her father too long ago.  When I said that to her, she said she had already been told that by him in her meditation 3 months earlier but had not liked to tell me

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 27, 2022 by Lairg

[old3bob]

5 hours ago, Bindi said:

In your view what is the benefit of soul evolution? 

 

what is the potential or real benefit of any evolution...and what limitations can be overcome?

[Lairg]

20 minutes ago, old3bob said:

 

what is the potential or real benefit of any evolution..

 

The in-breath of the Creator/Logos draws all intelligences to progressively more refined levels of Existence - until the Mahapralaya when all manifestation ceases

 

 

[Jadespear]

Siddhis = side effects of being in tune with oneself and the external world to such a degree that ones intent can become manifest through the laws under which it operates.  In other words, these "Siddhis" are basically nothing more than events that occur when one is in a certain state of mind and is also influencing oneself or the external world through thought/intention/emotion.  Thats why Patanjali says they are accomplishments of the fluctuating mind.  Because they literally are just and only that.  These things naturally occur spontaneously only when the circumstances are correct for them to occur.  They are not "powers" that people possess, they are just extensions of ones true nature manifested in existence.  In a way they are a type of "spiritual experience" in that they occur for reasons invisible to the naked eye and are not able to be understood through common human reasoning.  It's actually quite important for them to occur for anyone who is honestly on the spiritual path, because they are proof of what happens, which presents evidence of reason to continue further in one's goals.  If they don't happen at all, what reason would anyone have to move forward?  How would anyone know that they have encountered a new connection of sorts between themselves and the external world?  They wouldn't.  They would just be a devout, believer with no knowledge or experience beyond belief.  A very dangerous proposition indeed...believers without knowledge.  

 

What is the benefit of evolution?  That's kind of a moot question, as evolution isn't something that benefits anything in a certain respect, because it influences everything, it's not something to be used, and can't really be controlled.  Evolution in the natural sense has to occur so that forms of life survive through the changes they experience in their environments, as they are always in flux more or less.  Evolution in the "spiritual" sense is different.  Theoretically speaking, that term "spiritual evolution" is rather confusing I think.  There is a part of us that doesn't experience change - what is called our true nature, etc.  And then there is all the rest of us that does experience change.  What is confusing is that nearly every "mystical or esoteric" pathway leads to the same result through what is called "evolution".  But thats where it breaks down, because evolution in the physical world takes form as different appearances, changes in biology etc.  The end of the natural evolution is just more or less defined by changes that facilitate an organism surviving.  "Spiritual evolution" is different.  We don't just change to survive.  We learn to grow.  Thats why I think it's more like learning and acquiring knowledge rather than evolving.  Through the learning and knowledge gained, one will of course develop some sort of new perspective, so in a sense they "evolved" or "changed" or "grew".  But, the force behind that change or growth is usually mere curiosity, wonder, or yearning to learn; not a need to survive.  Thats why I don't see it as a evolution really, more like a linear advancement along a self directed path where the things learned are the same for everyone, just learned differently and at different times.  "Development" is a better word to describe it to me.   

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Jadespear said:

What is the benefit of evolution?  That's kind of a moot question, as evolution isn't something that benefits anything in a certain respect, because it influences everything, it's not something to be used, and can't really be controlled.

The assumption is that there IS evolution. True Nature is perfect, always present and never absent. It is not produced as a result of any practice, it cannot be induced . So no, there is no spiritual evolution in reality.
 

Evolution is only apparent, in the monkey mind. That’s why Siddhis are neither considered necessary,  nor important by yogis. The way to know whether you have “got there”, is when you realize there IS nowhere to get. You have always been that which you seek.  
 

PS. WRT development, there is no development either. There is only the path of reduction, of uncovering, and letting go of acquired layers of mind, and personality.

Edited November 27, 2022 by dwai

[old3bob]

Btw ..."Prana springs from the Self"  (and all the rest) Chandogya Upanishad,  thus there is no disconnect or illusion per se only incorrect perception.  Regardless of what some yogi's may say Sat Guru has some siddhis used as  tools to do their work, including transmission/synchronization which is important.

[Lairg]

10 hours ago, dwai said:

The way to know whether you have “got there”, is when you realize there IS nowhere to get. You have always been that which you seek

 

I rather hope that having discovered what I am, there is some purpose to my existence.  

[Mithras]

14 hours ago, dwai said:

The assumption is that there IS evolution. True Nature is perfect, always present and never absent.

There is evidence of psychic evolution but it is not present here. A psychic frog in a well has no need for intelligence or actions that measure it’s cause, nor does it disturb the wealth of a lunatic.

A psionic is closer to human reason, but they would only consider that every other human is a psionic. Their function is then not really limited by access to nature. As human limitation is not really a principle in safe communication extremes, their concern would be thought control (why couldn’t I think of this). I would consider psionics a theory of communication.

A patch to software does not actually indicate any route towards safety, it just changes how humans receive. The machine does not actually adapt towards new needs or cruelty.

 

Knowing all this, is there actually a way to cultivate? To receive Qi from the environment, rather than having to look for it. A cultivation manual is an interesting disguise for a wise man, but for an ignorant person it is wealth without reason.
 

Wuxia from ego’s perspective seems to suggest something far odder than just fictional patterns/novel ideas. These things are safe in their own reason of contaminations. It might be possible to navigate in more extreme manners if I do not know safer routes. Whereas even a psychic would probably  justify that you just need more and more noise to prove anything/keep assumption of privacy covered. 

 

TLDR: There is no evidence psychic powers are real, a psychic would find this quite easy to avoid. The evolution of a psychic extremity would not stop by another standard.

Edited November 28, 2022 by Mithras

[Jadespear]

18 hours ago, dwai said:

The assumption is that there IS evolution. True Nature is perfect, always present and never absent. It is not produced as a result of any practice, it cannot be induced . So no, there is no spiritual evolution in reality.
 

Evolution is only apparent, in the monkey mind. That’s why Siddhis are neither considered necessary,  nor important by yogis. The way to know whether you have “got there”, is when you realize there IS nowhere to get. You have always been that which you seek.  
 

PS. WRT development, there is no development either. There is only the path of reduction, of uncovering, and letting go of acquired layers of mind, and personality.

 

Ok, so evolution of the phenomenal world exists obviously - proven by years of science.  

 

Evolution of one's true nature - does not exist.  It's changeless. 

 

Development - totally exists.  Development as an energetic spiritual being that is.  Without development of ones astral and mental bodies... you'll be rendered pretty useless as a being.  It's just like being a physical person in a sense.  When you are young you learn how to operate yourself physically, mentally, and emotionally to function in the physical world we inhabit.  Without basic necessary skills you wouldn't survive.  The same is true for spirituality.  Yes, while you may revel in your blissful self and cherish it as the one and only basic truth of your existence, without anything more - that realization doesn't get you anywhere because it's just intellectual knowledge.  It may provide you with peace of mind, but life is not only about having peace of mind all the time.  Life isn't about one thing all the time.  Its about many things throughout time.  To be functional in an effective way as a spiritual being one must develop and know how to function as one.  That's why development is a good term to describe that and is important to do.  Knowing the intellectual basics are good foundations. 

 

I suppose if you really wanted to sit and meditate your entire life, you could.  But, you'd miss out on a lot that life has to offer.  Asserting that there is nowhere to go is plain stupid to me.  There are tons of places to go!  Thats why you develop - so you can go to all the great places.  Why else do people meditate at all, or try to do any of this whatsoever?  It's not just to know what they basically are, it's to learn and experience more of existence.  It's just like when you are a kid, sure you can have a great time being content with yourself and not driving anywhere, but that doesn't mean that when you are old enough you shouldn't drive around in a car to see more of the world.  If you don't explore, you'll be just that more ignorant of those experiences.  Without the vehicle you can't get to those places fast enough, without development you can't get anywhere or do anything correctly in an intelligible way.  

 

It's actually every being's destiny to develop themselves.  It's really simple why.  If you don't control nature, you are dominated by it.  Once you reach a certain level in your own state being and realize how connected everything is, you can't look away.  You either choose to live under the influences of forces you don't understand, or you choose to embrace those forces as tools to shape your own life as a free self-realized being.  Without development, you'll always be under the former - dominated by the oppression of nature.   

[Jadespear]

5 hours ago, Mithras said:

There is evidence of psychic evolution but it is not present here. A psychic frog in a well has no need for intelligence or actions that measure it’s cause, nor does it disturb the wealth of a lunatic.

A psionic is closer to human reason, but they would only consider that every other human is a psionic. Their function is then not really limited by access to nature. As human limitation is not really a principle in safe communication extremes, their concern would be thought control (why couldn’t I think of this). I would consider psionics a theory of communication.

A patch to software does not actually indicate any route towards safety, it just changes how humans receive. The machine does not actually adapt towards new needs or cruelty.

 

Knowing all this, is there actually a way to cultivate? To receive Qi from the environment, rather than having to look for it. A cultivation manual is an interesting disguise for a wise man, but for an ignorant person it is wealth without reason.
 

Wuxia from ego’s perspective seems to suggest something far odder than just fictional patterns/novel ideas. These things are safe in their own reason of contaminations. It might be possible to navigate in more extreme manners if I do not know safer routes. Whereas even a psychic would probably  justify that you just need more and more noise to prove anything/keep assumption of privacy covered. 

 

TLDR: There is no evidence psychic powers are real, a psychic would find this quite easy to avoid. The evolution of a psychic extremity would not stop by another standard.

 

There is evidence psychic powers are real.  You're wrong.  I've participated in them.  Open your mind.  

[Mithras]

You should open your mind for me. The lazy man is quite bored of principality, it is thankful to offer both burdens but not to receive them

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Jadespear said:

 

Ok, so evolution of the phenomenal world exists obviously - proven by years of science.  

 

Evolution of one's true nature - does not exist.  It's changeless. 

 

Development - totally exists.  Development as an energetic spiritual being that is.  Without development of ones astral and mental bodies... you'll be rendered pretty useless as a being.  It's just like being a physical person in a sense.  When you are young you learn how to operate yourself physically, mentally, and emotionally to function in the physical world we inhabit.  Without basic necessary skills you wouldn't survive.  The same is true for spirituality.  Yes, while you may revel in your blissful self and cherish it as the one and only basic truth of your existence, without anything more - that realization doesn't get you anywhere because it's just intellectual knowledge.  It may provide you with peace of mind, but life is not only about having peace of mind all the time.  Life isn't about one thing all the time.  Its about many things throughout time.  To be functional in an effective way as a spiritual being one must develop and know how to function as one.  That's why development is a good term to describe that and is important to do.  Knowing the intellectual basics are good foundations. 

 

I suppose if you really wanted to sit and meditate your entire life, you could.  But, you'd miss out on a lot that life has to offer.  Asserting that there is nowhere to go is plain stupid to me.  There are tons of places to go!  Thats why you develop - so you can go to all the great places.  Why else do people meditate at all, or try to do any of this whatsoever?  It's not just to know what they basically are, it's to learn and experience more of existence.  It's just like when you are a kid, sure you can have a great time being content with yourself and not driving anywhere, but that doesn't mean that when you are old enough you shouldn't drive around in a car to see more of the world.  If you don't explore, you'll be just that more ignorant of those experiences.  Without the vehicle you can't get to those places fast enough, without development you can't get anywhere or do anything correctly in an intelligible way.  

 

It's actually every being's destiny to develop themselves.  It's really simple why.  If you don't control nature, you are dominated by it.  Once you reach a certain level in your own state being and realize how connected everything is, you can't look away.  You either choose to live under the influences of forces you don't understand, or you choose to embrace those forces as tools to shape your own life as a free self-realized being.  Without development, you'll always be under the former - dominated by the oppression of nature.   

There is a compulsive clinging to the ephemeral (phenomenal) world. That is part of the letting go/reduction that needs to happen. By not reinforcing the clinging, one can truly enjoy all the places to go to. It is like in a dream - if you are not lucid, you are subject to the dreams' ups and downs, pleasures, pains, horrors, and joys. If you are lucid, you can enjoy all of it without being affected by it. 

 

This spiel about " If you don't control nature, you are dominated by it." is a classic example of operating from a position of fear.  So long as you are controlled by fear, you will remain compulsive and reactionary. What you consider to be tools of development are tools of deconstruction. You must deconstruct your personality and identity to get to the core of your True Nature. There is no other way. 

 

You can't become free of "nature" by fighting or forcefully vanquishing it. Nature cannot be vanquished, period. Each attempt to control and vanquish nature has only resulted in progressively greater entrapment.

 

One of the stories my teacher told us about the nature of freedom is how monkeys used to be trapped. The trap would be a jar with a fruit or similar item, with a mouth wide enough to let monkeys slide their hands into it. So the monkey would see the item it desired and slide its hand into the jar. Then it would grasp the item in its fist. When it would try to withdraw its hand out, it would not be able to, as the closed fist would prevent it from doing so. But being a monkey, it would not let go of the thing it so desired and would fight, trying to "vanquish" nature, by yanking its arm out of the jar - object of desire in its closed fist. it would be so engrossed in this, it wouldn't realize that the trapper had sneaked up on it from behind, ready to bag it. Moral of the story? If monkey wants to be free, it must let go of its desire to control nature (i.e., hold on to the object it desires) - in other words, it needs to let go of its desire. 

 

Which is wiser?

• Having been given the truth and then rejecting it to wallow in the delusions of the phenomenal world?
• Or knowing and being stable in the realization of the ephemeral nature of the phenomenal world, truly enjoying it without succumbing to the compulsive clinging of the mind?

Spoiler

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by dwai

[old3bob]

"This is Śiva as the absolute Consciousness that is both immanent and transcendent—the one who becomes the universe at the same time that he exists beyond the universe." 

 

Siva does not reject or imply the immanent as delusional...only incorrect perception of the immanent may get delusional... 

[dwai]

41 minutes ago, old3bob said:

"This is Śiva as the absolute Consciousness that is both immanent and transcendent—the one who becomes the universe at the same time that he exists beyond the universe." 

 

Siva does not reject or imply the immanent as delusional...only incorrect perception of the immanent may get delusional... 

Perfect! Delusion = Incorrect perception of the immanent (aka Avidya). 

 

There are five aspects to any phenomenon. The ephemeral is name and form (nama-rupa, aka jagat-rupam). The non-ephemeral are being (isness), effulgence, and love (asti-bhati-priyam, aka brahma-rupam). Those who only perceive the first 2 are in delusion. Those who can see the other three (asti-bhati-priyam) shining forth through the names and forms can perceive the immanent correctly. Once the perception of the immanent is correct, one is free to not cling to names and forms. 

[old3bob]

"...the one who becomes the universe at the same time that he exists beyond the universe.""

 

thus pointing to a "who becomes" via an evolutionary unfolding or fulfillment if you will of their consciousness.  Not unlike the Indian metaphor of the water lily rising above and from the watery  mud and unfolding itself further into the air and sunlight...

Edited November 28, 2022 by old3bob

[dwai]

47 minutes ago, old3bob said:

"...the one who becomes the universe at the same time that he exists beyond the universe.""

 

thus pointing to a "who becomes" via an evolutionary unfolding or fulfillment if you will of their consciousness.  Not unlike the Indian metaphor of the water lily rising above and from the watery  mud and unfolding itself further into the air and sunlight...

The “becoming” is what is the issue. If you start with the position of “A has to/will become B”, then you accept that A and B are ultimately different. If you say that “A will become A”, that is a logical fallacy - how can A become what it already/always is? 
 

If the jiva “is actually/has always been” shiva, there is no “becoming”, only realizing/recognizing.
 

If not, jiva and shiva are not the same. So becoming/evolving is a dualistic perspective, not a nondual one.

[old3bob]

I'd say that we don't have to accept that they are ultimately different, for one is a potential while the other is realized potential, granted that in the eye of transcendent Siva there is no differential but in the relative eye of the aspects of Siva there is a differential...not unlike there is a difference in the first and purest prana springing from the Self and the last guna of the dense earth. 

 

An oak seed must be in a dark moist covering of earth to first sprout and then grow up into a great oak reaching for the sun.  (and also producing new seeds)

 

We could also consider something along the lines of the following quote, "Dipolar theism, according to Charles Hartshorne, understands God as both absolute and relative, abstract and concrete, eternal and temporal, necessary and contingent, infinite and finite. The being of God does not exclude but rather includes the being of the world...."

Edited November 28, 2022 by old3bob

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

I'd say that we don't have to accept that they are ultimately different, for one is a potential while the other is realized potential, granted that in the eye of transcendent Siva there is no differential but in the relative eye of the aspects of Siva there is a differential...not unlike there is a difference in the first and purest prana springing from the Self and the last guna of the dense earth. 

 

An oak seed must be in a dark moist covering of earth to first sprout and then grow up into a great oak reaching for the sun.  (and also producing new seeds)

 

 

I think this would be my favourite analogy, asserting that a seed is perfect versus cultivating that seed directly to fulfill its innate potential. 

 

1 hour ago, old3bob said:

We could also consider something along the lines of the following quote, "Dipolar theism, according to Charles Hartshorne, understands God as both absolute and relative, abstract and concrete, eternal and temporal, necessary and contingent, infinite and finite. The being of God does not exclude but rather includes the being of the world...."

 

[Jadespear]

8 hours ago, Mithras said:

You should open your mind for me. The lazy man is quite bored of principality, it is thankful to offer both burdens but not to receive them

 

Um, I'm entirely open to hear whatever you want to say.  Doesn't sound like you have anything to offer though... too bad. 

 

You can't really convince me that my mind is closed, when you are the one in denial of realities that you don't even acknowledge exist.