Path to Physical Transcendence (Tian Xian/Paramukta)

[dragonmaster]

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Edited January 5, 2023 by dragonmaster

[Taoist Texts]

53 minutes ago, dragonmaster said:

My question is whether there is a system delineated in Taoism, which explicitly has the aim of attaining the “Tian Xian” stage.

of course. all of them

56 minutes ago, dragonmaster said:

the attainment of fully transforming the physical body into a body of light is referred to as “Heaven[ly] immortality”

hmm no. Joining "the dao and the true" is. if what is heavenly is conditioned by what is physical then it is not heavenly.

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, dragonmaster said:

In Taoist literature, the attainment of fully transforming the physical body into a body of light is referred to as “Heaven[ly] immortality”. In Hinduism the same attainment is called Paramukti. 
 

My question is whether there is a system delineated in Taoism, which explicitly has the aim of attaining the “Tian Xian” stage. I am aware many such systems exist to attain the immortal fetus, yang shen and golden elixir— but per my understanding none of these practices actually immortalize the flesh and blood human body by converting it into light. 

I believe the Chinese Taoist beliefs is to have the soul to leave the body. The soul will rise to heaven and become “Tian Xian”, 天仙. Some Tian Xians are cultivated to have the souls of the Taoist priests leaving their bodies and some are just come from within, like the Jade Emperor and his court.

Edited November 29, 2022 by ChiDragon

[dragonmaster]

53 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I believe the Chinese Taoist beliefs is to have the soul to leave the body. The soul will rise to heaven and become “Tian Xian”, 天仙. Some Tian Xians are cultivated to have the souls of the Taoist priests leaving their bodies and some are just come from within, like the Jade Emperor and his court.

In this scenario would the body still die and be left behind? If that is the case then what would you say about Daytime Ascension?

[ChiDragon]

Yes, the body still die and left behind. Tian Xian can do Daytime Ascension but not ghosts.

[Cobie]

5 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

… Daytime Ascension … 

What is “daytime ascension”?

[ChiDragon]

Just now, Cobie said:

What is “daytime ascension”?

The soul rise from the body during daytime when the sun is up.

[Cobie]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

The soul rise from the body during daytime when the sun is up.

Is it in any way relevant when one lets the soul leave the body?

[dragonmaster]

38 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

The soul rise from the body during daytime when the sun is up.

 

47 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, the body still die and left behind. Tian Xian can do Daytime Ascension but not ghosts.

So just to make sure I understand your position correctly: per your view, even a perfect Tian Xian cannot permute his physical body into light, and at the time of his death will leave behind a dead corpse. Is this correct?

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, dragonmaster said:

a perfect Tian Xian

A perfect Tian Xian is no longer own a body.

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

Is it in any way relevant when one lets the soul leave the body?

Yes, one is to become an immortal as a Tian Xian.

[Cobie]

22 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, one is to become an immortal as a Tian Xian.

 

I meant to ask something else.

 

Re. daytime ascension (the soul rise from the body during daytime when the sun is up).

If I decide to let my soul leave my body, does it matter at what time of the day I decide to leave?

Does it have to be in the daytime, when the sun is up? Or can I depart just as well in the nighttime?

 

 

Edited November 29, 2022 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

I don't think it matters. One can be cultivated to be a Tian Xian and it could happen any time.

[Cobie]

21 hours ago, dragonmaster said:

… Daytime Ascension?

What, according to you, is  “Daytime Ascension”?

 

20 hours ago, ChiDragon said:

… Daytime Ascension …

What are the Chinese characters for “Daytime Ascension”?

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Cobie

[dragonmaster]

54 minutes ago, Cobie said:

What, according to you, is  “Daytime Ascension”?

 

What are the Chinese characters for “Daytime Ascension”?

 

“But the highest level some of those old masters achieved is what they called 'daytime ascending'. They could raise their energy so high that they could dissolve even their bodies into pure energy and just vanish and turn into a 'saint'. You can see this sort of event recorded in the old legends or notes of this sort of master turning up from time to time in the official records.“
~Waysun Liao, "Tao-The Way Of God"~

[dragonmaster]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

What, according to you, is  “Daytime Ascension”?

 

What are the Chinese characters for “Daytime Ascension”?

 

bairi shengtian (白日昇天, "ascending to Heaven in broad daylight").

[Cobie]

daytime ascending”

On 30/11/2022 at 6:20 PM, dragonmaster said:

… 白日 … in broad daylight").

However, 

On 30/11/2022 at 7:59 AM, ChiDragon said:

… it could happen any time.

So why mention the “daytime”?

Could 白日 (bright sun) possibly refer to the “body of light”? 
[ “they could dissolve even their bodies into pure energy and just vanish”; ”permute his physical body into light”]

 

白日昇天 - body of light ascending to heaven.

 

~~~

白 bai2 - white; bright

日 ri4 - sun 

昇 sheng1 - ascend 

天 tian1 - sky; heaven 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Cobie

[damdao]

17 hours ago, Cobie said:

“daytime ascending”

However, 

So why mention the “daytime”?
 

Because in folk religion it is believed that only 神仙 (trascendents, immortals) could stand in broad daylight (being pure yang beings), other entities are considered 鬼 (ghosts) and they, being pure yin beings, can only "manifest" themselves at night.

So, leaving your physical body in daylight means you are not a ghost but an immortal.

Simple as that.

If someone dissolves his /her body, the phrase used is something like "he leaves behind only his shoes (or fingernails, etc.)".

[Taoist Texts]

41 minutes ago, damdao said:

Because in folk religion it is believed that only 神仙 (trascendents, immortals) could stand in broad daylight (being pure yang beings), other entities are considered 鬼 (ghosts) and they, being pure yin beings, can only "manifest" themselves at night.

Classical Chinese Literature: An Anthology of Translations
John Minford, ‎Joseph S. M. Lau · 2000 · ‎Chinese literature
Even in broad daylight , people saw ghosts everywhere .

https://tinyurl.com/47y4njzn

[damdao]

31 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Classical Chinese Literature: An Anthology of Translations
John Minford, ‎Joseph S. M. Lau · 2000 · ‎Chinese literature
Even in broad daylight , people saw ghosts everywhere .

https://tinyurl.com/47y4njzn

Yes, I have heard the expression before (in chinese) with the value of something truly incredible, the height of a situation. I don't think that in the folk lore it is normal to see ghost in broad light.

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, damdao said:

Yes, I have heard the expression before (in chinese) with the value of something truly incredible, the height of a situation. I don't think that in the folk lore it is normal to see ghost in broad light.

Yes, under the Chinese myth, a ghost will dissolve into a form of liquid under broad daylight. 

[Cobie]

Obsolete now.

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

7 minutes ago, Cobie said:

There seems to be no need for 白日 to rub in the point a third time. So imo it’s more likely 白日 does not mean ‘daytime’

Yes, it does mean daytime in the language!

[Cobie]

Obsolete now. 
 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

11 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Ghosts do not ascend, they descend.

Ghost is just a spirit like a Xian. Both do ascend, the only difference is that ghost only come out a night. The Xian can appear during daytime and nighttime.