Jing to Qi

[Wilhelm]

Hi guys,

 

I was hoping the folks who had studied or practiced the initial stage of Nei Dan could help me understand it better

 

For those with theoretical knowledge of the process - what are the necessary preconditions for Jing to convert to Qi? 

 

For those who've completed this stage - I assume that if your vitality hasn't decreased substantially from this process that it can't be said to be a 'conversion' of Jing to Qi, or else you'd be radically shortening your lifespan by converting Jing at such a rapid rate.  What do you think 'Jing to Qi' means then?  

 

For those who either trained with a group or had friends go through the process - what are some of the errors you saw people make when practicing the stage of Jing to Qi? 

 

And for the scholars - where did you find the best textual references for this stage?  Are there any classics where you saw it elucidated particularly well?

 

Thanks in advance.  I know it's a lot of questions 😬

[MetaDao]

Jing to Qi refers to the refinement of the dense(lower frequency) state of Jing to the more subtle(higher frequency) state of Qi. It is not a direct conversion in the sense that you lose the properties of the Jing. In other words, you don't lose all the aspects included within the Jing, like vitality. In fact, your overall health greatly improves.

 

Jing to Qi refinement simply means that you upgrade or refine the energy you have to a higher frequency. They are the same substance in different states. Ice and water. When an ice cube melts into water, do you lose any of the substance? No. If you refreeze that melted water under optimal conditions, it would form the same sized ice cube.

 

Again, I think its necessary to clarify whether you are referring to the post-heaven Jing to Qi Refinement. I am aware you're a fan of Damo. His system talks of  "stilling" the post-heaven jing before melting the post-heaven Jing to post-heaven Qi, changing the physiology of the body in the process. This, to me, is Neigong because it is a post-heaven internal process aimed at preparing the body for pre-heaven processes.

 

Errors. The most common error for men, and the hardest obstacle to overcome is desire. You can have the best methods in existence, but if you cannot conquer desire, the Jing to Qi refinement will not occur in the correct manner. The most common obstacle in general  is diet. After that, consistent daily practice combined with overcoming desire and eating correctly. Besides the errors in the practice itself, those are the main obstacles.

 

There may in fact be truth to the fact that alchemical sex practices exist, but they serve particular purposes in the process. You can't change the fact that desire leads to loss of Yuan Jing. Some loss is okay if there is a purpose behind it.

 

Again, all of that process I described is the refinement of post-heaven jing to post-heaven qi. The refinement of pre-heaven Jing is where you move into Neidan.

 

First off, before you do any refinement, you replenish the pre-heaven Jing. This has many purposes, but I won't list them here. Only once the Yuan Jing has reached its peak capacity does it get refined. Once you refine the Yuan Jing to Yuan Qi, your physiology changes. Certain channels are opened, and certain ones are closed, resulting in a change in our desires. There isn't a constant battle of actively suppressing desire anymore. This is because the channel responsible for sexual desire closes off. Rather than converting to post-heaven Jing, the pre-heaven Jing, for the most-part, converts to pre-heaven Qi. You still have enough post-heaven Jing, but there is no wastage.

 

Errors and obstacles are the same as they are for the Neigong process. The Neidan process is just deeper and more involved. There are many similarities between the two processes as both are dealing with the refinement of Jing to Qi. However, the conversion of Yuan Jing to Yuan Qi is a much deeper and more involved process with greater benefits.

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by MetaDao

[Wilhelm]

20 hours ago, MetaDao said:

Jing to Qi refers to the refinement of the dense(lower frequency) state of Jing to the more subtle(higher frequency) state of Qi. It is not a direct conversion in the sense that you lose the properties of the Jing. In other words, you don't lose all the aspects included within the Jing, like vitality. In fact, your overall health greatly improves.

 

Jing to Qi refinement simply means that you upgrade or refine the energy you have to a higher frequency. They are the same substance in different states. Ice and water. When an ice cube melts into water, do you lose any of the substance? No. If you refreeze that melted water under optimal conditions, it would form the same sized ice cube.

Thanks for sharing your understanding 🙏.

 

So to continue with this metaphor a practitioner first restores their supply of 'ice' (Yuan Jing) which is then gradually melted into water (Yuan Qi), which is then gradually evaporated into steam (Yuan Shen)?  And in this model would it be fair to say the pre and post heaven Jing don't have a direct relationship?

Quote

Again, I think its necessary to clarify whether you are referring to the post-heaven Jing to Qi Refinement. I am aware you're a fan of Damo. His system talks of  "stilling" the post-heaven jing before melting the post-heaven Jing to post-heaven Qi, changing the physiology of the body in the process. This, to me, is Neigong because it is a post-heaven internal process aimed at preparing the body for pre-heaven processes.

Yes thanks for the pre/post heaven distinction.  As a sidebar did you get that model from White Moon on the Mountain Peak?  🤔 It's not what he's teaching right now but I know in the past he's simplified some of the models for books.

Quote

Errors

Thanks for including these too 🙏

Edited December 14, 2022 by Wilhelm

[Creation]

On 12/13/2022 at 1:54 PM, Wilhelm said:

For those who've completed this stage - I assume that if your vitality hasn't decreased substantially from this process that it can't be said to be a 'conversion' of Jing to Qi, or else you'd be radically shortening your lifespan by converting Jing at such a rapid rate.  What do you think 'Jing to Qi' means then? 

Of course, it's not like the process makes you jing deficient in CM terms, but it does apparently make you sterile (per Damo's Nepal lecture), so some function within the body is indeed being rerouted to something else.  Maybe this is the reason for the use of the term converted. Just speculation, I'm not the type of experience practitioner you requested to answer.

[MetaDao]

2 hours ago, Creation said:

Of course, it's not like the process makes you jing deficient in CM terms, but it does apparently make you sterile (per Damo's Nepal lecture), so some function within the body is indeed being rerouted to something else.  Maybe this is the reason for the use of the term converted. Just speculation, I'm not the type of experience practitioner you requested to answer.

There is a rerouting that takes place, but in my understanding, you are not sterile. 
 

Your body still produces post-heaven Jing when it needs to. This then gets converted to semen, which contains the potential for life. So, not sure if that’s a direct quote but that’s an error if it is.

Edited December 15, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

3 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

So to continue with this metaphor a practitioner first restores their supply of 'ice' (Yuan Jing) which is then gradually melted into water (Yuan Qi), which is then gradually evaporated into steam (Yuan Shen)? 

In a way yes, but that model is highly simplified. Steam can also can be refined. The refined steam(whatever that may be) then has to fuse with the water. Otherwise known as the mixing of Kan and Li

[MetaDao]

3 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

As a sidebar did you get that model from White Moon on the Mountain Peak?  🤔 It's not what he's teaching right now but I know in the past he's simplified some of the models for books.

I did. Can you explain what he’s teaching now?

[MetaDao]

3 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

And in this model would it be fair to say the pre and post heaven Jing don't have a direct relationship?

They pre-heaven always has a direct relationship with the post-heaven. Any work with the pre-heaven is simultaneously affecting the post-heaven. 
 

It doesn’t work the other way around though. If you affect the post-heaven, there is no direct affect on the pre-heaven.

[Creation]

11 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

There is a rerouting that takes place, but in my understanding, you are not sterile. 
 

Your body still produces post-heaven Jing when it needs to. This then gets converted to semen, which contains the potential for life. So, not sure if that’s a direct quote but that’s an error if it is.

I misremembered, it was Bhutan, not Nepal, he mentions it at the end of this talk. Another neidan practitioner in this forum's history, whose name I can't recall at the moment, mentioned this same thing many years ago, so it's not just Damo saying this.

[Creation]

It can be hard to remember what Damo has said in publically available material, but I'm fairly certain he has mentioned the jing hua in a YouTube video addressing misconceptions regarding sexual practices.  Jing hua is the yang line in the middle of the kan trigram, which is what the firing process is extracting from the jing, and this is the energy within the jing that is used to create life. I don't think that was mentioned in White Moon.

Edited December 15, 2022 by Creation

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, Creation said:

I misremembered, it was Bhutan, not Nepal, he mentions it at the end of this talk. Another neidan practitioner in this forum's history, whose name I can't recall at the moment, mentioned this same thing many years ago, so it's not just Damo saying this.

Lol, well I’m listening to it rn.

 

First off, he says “that brings you to the next step after alchemy, then you work with the channel system.” Not sure how that is after alchemy. That process he’s starting to describe is still alchemy.

 

Also, a few of his sentences towards the very end are wrong as well. Says something about fueling meditation and other things. I guess in his view those are a middle pillar and couldn’t be fully explained as he was rushed. 
 

I am off to practice. I will listen to more of it later to see exactly what he says. 
 

Ah, I see. He’s talking of extracting the Yang spark of the Jing. Yes, that just means that the Yang spark is not present within your system, so it is not contained within the sperm when it is produced. So, essentially, when you ejaculate, you do not lose the Yang spark and Yuan Jing wastage is minimized to simply the mental desire. Like he mentions in the video, the process can be reversed. 

 

If you’re replenishing Yuan Jing, the Yang spark will come back. You can most certainly still have children. You just have to wait for your system to contain the Yang spark again without extracting it. Then, your semen will contain the potential for life, and boom babies are possible!

Edited December 15, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, Creation said:

It can be hard to remember what Damo has said in publically available material, but I'm fairly certain he has mentioned the jing hua in a YouTube video addressing misconceptions regarding sexual practices, which is the yang line in the middle of the kan trigram, which is what the firing process is extracting from the jing, and this is the energy within the jing that is used to create life. I don't think that was mentioned in White Moon.

Yes, you are correct. Genuine Yang contained within water. This has to mix or fuse with Genuine Yin contained within fire.

[Taoist Texts]

On 12/13/2022 at 11:54 PM, Wilhelm said:

For those with theoretical knowledge of the process - what are the necessary preconditions for Jing to convert to Qi? 

From theory point of view it is somewhat important to understand that there is no such thing as Jing.Jing->Qi is just a model albeit a practically viable one. In reality nothing gets converted. In practice it is necessary to know how to replenish Jing first. Even if ppl give a lip service to that stage they dont know how to do it. And even if they think they know, apparently ppl think they can do it with some neidan technique without changing their lifestyle and worldview (e.g stopping having sex etc). 

On 12/13/2022 at 11:54 PM, Wilhelm said:

your vitality hasn't decreased substantially from this process that it can't be said to be a 'conversion' of Jing to Qi, or else you'd be radically shortening your lifespan by converting Jing

Jing is not vitality, its a mental construct

 

On 12/13/2022 at 11:54 PM, Wilhelm said:

what are some of the errors you saw people make when practicing the stage of Jing to Qi? 

this

4 hours ago, MetaDao said:

If you affect the post-heaven, there is no direct affect on the pre-heaven.

and this

On 12/14/2022 at 4:17 AM, MetaDao said:

You still have enough post-heaven Jing,

 

On 12/13/2022 at 11:54 PM, Wilhelm said:

the best textual references for this stage?

this is by Dr. Pregadio who was once on this forum

https://www.goldenelixir.com/files/Wang_Mu_Foundations_of_Internal_Alchemy_SAMPLE.pdf

you can read the free sample only, it addresses this stage fairly well

[Barnaby]

8 hours ago, MetaDao said:

Your body still produces post-heaven Jing when it needs to. This then gets converted to semen, which contains the potential for life.

 

8 hours ago, MetaDao said:

Yes, that just means that the Yang spark is not present within your system, so it is not contained within the sperm when it is produced. So, essentially, when you ejaculate, you do not lose the Yang spark and Yuan Jing wastage is minimized to simply the mental desire. 

 

So this is a fundamentally phallocentric model, then?

 

I'm not being flippant. With all the references to semen, sperm and ejaculation, that would seem to be the case...

[MetaDao]

4 hours ago, Barnaby said:

 

 

So this is a fundamentally phallocentric model, then?

 

I'm not being flippant. With all the references to semen, sperm and ejaculation, that would seem to be the case...

I’m sorry but no lmao.

 

There is just as much organization of knowledge surrounding Jing with women as well. The process is simply different. Post-heaven Jing generates the sexual fluids within our body.

 

Desire leaks Yuan Jing for both males and females.

 

Semen is vitally important because it is created through using up the Yang spark of the jing. So, it’s a huge leak of Yuan Jing. The penis, quite frankly, doesn’t much matter. It’s the fluids that matter. And the mental arousal.

[Barnaby]

OK, the stuff about desire I can follow.

 

But talking about semen takes it somewhere far more specific.

 

Does that imply that Yuan Jing leakage is more of a problem for men than for women?

 

Or that these words are just cultural signifiers, referencing things that are more unisex?

[MetaDao]

17 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

OK, the stuff about desire I can follow.

 

But talking about semen takes it somewhere far more specific.

 

Does that imply that Yuan Jing leakage is more of a problem for men than for women?

 

Or that these words are just cultural signifiers, referencing things that are more unisex?

It is a bit harder of an obstacle for Men to overcome, yes. Puns intended.

 

We can also talk about menstrual blood if that makes you more comfortable

 

Just as Men and Women have physical differences, they also have energetic differences, resulting in differing strengths and weaknesses for stages of Neidan. In fact, lost to the ages, there were specific lineages centered around women.

 

In my opinion, lost to the ages as well, are legitimate sexual practices that actually helped both men and women in their pursuit of the elixir. It has been simplified down by modern masters to say “sex doesn’t matter for spiritual growth.” However, this statement is not entirely true.

Sex can actually help one along the path to the elixir if done in the right way. Yes, it is eliminated entirely at a certain point and you don’t even feel like having sex at all. But that doesn’t mean it’s not useful in certain aspects. This still doesn’t change the fact that sex is something that stimulates our desires and leaks Yuan Jing though. In other words, it’s a major leak of Yuan Qi and is an obstacle everyone must overcome in order to achieve the elixir.

Edited December 15, 2022 by MetaDao

[MetaDao]

A problem I’m noticing is everyone’s reliance on Damo or others like him for knowledge. Damo is not a master of Neidan and neither am I.

 

There are errors in his understanding just as there are errors in mine.

 

It seems like people are over glorifying him just because he has had a role in bringing some of the lesser known eastern practices to the west. Just because something is said to counter something Damo has said does not make it immediately wrong.

 

I’ve said this time and again. Find an authentic lineage, practice wholeheartedly, and you will be able to tell what is true for yourself. 
 

If you are one of Damo’s students’, why even ask on here about Jing to Qi. Just ask him. Similarly, people in the online forums of Neidan need to get it into their heads that you don’t just rely on others for truth or knowledge. Neither do you rely on texts.

 

You rely on your master’s guidance, your own practice, and stay true to your path. Then, the knowledge and truth reveals itself. There is no need to place people on pedestals.
 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by MetaDao

[Wilhelm]

18 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

A problem I’m noticing is everyone’s reliance on Damo or others like him for knowledge. Damo is not a master of Neidan and neither am I.

Respectfully, would you mind opening a separate thread to talk about Damo specifically?  I was hoping to keep this one tied to the subject in the OP.

 

I think folks who've been reading Daobums the past few months are well aware you're no fan of his, which is fair enough!  But if it keeps coming up every time we talk about Nei Dan it just seems to be more efficient for you to say what you want to say in full elsewhere, so we can stop derailing threads

[Wilhelm]

23 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

If you are one of Damo’s students’, why even ask on here about Jing to Qi. Just ask him. Similarly, people in the online forums of Neidan need to get it into their heads that you don’t just rely on others for truth or knowledge. Neither do you rely on texts.

I've got my notes from his lectures but I made this thread to hope to learn what everyone else is doing too

[Wilhelm]

13 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

From theory point of view it is somewhat important to understand that there is no such thing as Jing.Jing->Qi is just a model albeit a practically viable one. In reality nothing gets converted. In practice it is necessary to know how to replenish Jing first. Even if ppl give a lip service to that stage they dont know how to do it. And even if they think they know, apparently ppl think they can do it with some neidan technique without changing their lifestyle and worldview (e.g stopping having sex etc). 

Jing is not vitality, its a mental construct

Thanks very much!  So if you don't mind me asking - if Jing isn't a distinct substance, what is it that's being replenished?

13 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

this is by Dr. Pregadio who was once on this forum

https://www.goldenelixir.com/files/Wang_Mu_Foundations_of_Internal_Alchemy_SAMPLE.pdf

you can read the free sample only, it addresses this stage fairly well

Thanks for the recommendation!  I have a copy of this, and started reading it last night.  I appreciate how it references the classics I was having trouble pulling this information from (i.e. Awakening to Reality)

[Taoist Texts]

38 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

if Jing isn't a distinct substance, what is it that's being replenished?

good question. jing is just a mental construct and so is its being replenished. the both notions exist only in the J->Q model pretty much like there is no tangible vectors in physics or a root of negative numbers in math. in neidan we diminish something and call it the Jing replenishment in the JQ model. I know this sounds stupid and coy at first blush so i wiill better quote Daodejing 48: 

https://ctext.org/dao-de-jing

Quote

 who devotes himself to learning  a mundane art replenishes daily; who devotes himself to learning the Dao  diminishes daily

so what is being diminished? i will DM you on that soon;)

 

51 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Awakening to Reality

Did we mention that J>Q is a new model? the Awakening being an older text is a treatise on a diffent model: 'the fusion one'. There is also a mixed model of these two like  in WLP sect.

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

Thanks very much!  So if you don't mind me asking - if Jing isn't a distinct substance, what is it that's being replenished?

Thanks for the recommendation!  I have a copy of this, and started reading it last night.  I appreciate how it references the classics I was having trouble pulling this information from (i.e. Awakening to Reality)

Jing is a distinct substance. Don’t listen to Taoist Texts.

 

Look, no one on this forum can sufficiently answer your question.

I haven’t personally refined my Yuan Jing to Yuan Qi yet. When I do, l will return here with more satisfactory answers.

 

Those texts are nice references though.

Edited December 15, 2022 by MetaDao

[Wilhelm]

22 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

 

I appreciate your concerns, but this is a discussion forum 😂 if I stop listening to everyone who thought different from me then id be guilty of the sort of dogmatism you rightly warned about earlier.

 

I was grateful to learn your own understanding of the process as well, but what fun is it to shut down anyone who's understanding differs?  

 

For goodness sake, you've only been training with him for about a year, right?  Nobody could expect you to have all the answers so quickly...

[Cobie]

 

17 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… there is no such thing as Jing.Jing->Qi is just a model … Jing is not vitality, its a mental construct …

 

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… jing is just a mental construct and so is its being replenished. the both notions exist only in the J->Q model …

Yep. 

 

On 11/11/2022 at 11:23 PM, Cobie said:

… These things are all mental constructs …

 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Cobie