Jing to Qi

[freeform]

On 14/12/2022 at 10:01 PM, Creation said:

but it does apparently make you sterile

Some teachers also report that the penis shrinks down to its pre-pubescent state over time too

 

Spoiler

Just wanna scare off most of the young men before getting into the juicy bits 😂

 

But I’m not making it up - that’s something I’ve heard at least two decent teachers say.

 

[freeform]

18 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Jing->Qi is just a model albeit a practically viable one. In reality nothing gets converted.

Yeah. I’m not a big fan of the ‘Jing to Qi to Shen’ model.

 

It doesn’t really work like that in practice (ime)… you could simplify it down to that level - but it creates a lot of confusion.

 

It’s more like ‘full’ Jing upholds the Qi generation… ‘full’ Qi upholds the Shen generation… then Ling, Yuan Shen etc.

 

But that’s not even the full process - there’s all sorts of gathering of ingredients, fusions, refinements, aging and maturation… and many other side branches that may or may not be useful (eg generating inner sight… working on the Chong mai, memory, Ming, meditative methods etc).

 

When it comes to the ‘Jing to Qi’ step, I personally prefer to think in terms of qualities rather than conversions. Sinking - rising, condensing - expanding, settling - stimulating etc etc.

 

True conversion comes much later in the alchemical process.

 

Qualities have several counterparts on various levels - both on the substantial level, the energetic level, the mental level and the spiritual level…

 

The biggest error is to think of Jing as ‘just’ a substance. The substantial aspect is just the tip of the iceberg.
 

Working on the substantial level (methods) initiates a process that then has to continue on various other levels (eg changes in lifestyle or in psychology)
 

The key quality for ‘full’ Jing is settling. You can think of settled Jing as a still lake… but then desire, fear, compulsiveness, overthinking, stress, emotions, inner turmoil and drama - these all cause ripples in the lake… and an unsettled lake will not allow for Qi production (at least not to the extent that’s required).

 

One of the reasons many teachers start out with Yang Sheng practices like Qigong and Dao yin is that they help clear out some of the ripple-causing aspects… they help to generate Qi and create some of the conditions necessary for you to be able to settle.
 

So in a way you’re generating Qi even before doing anything on the Jing level!

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by freeform

[Bindi]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

Yep. 

 

 

 

@cobie & @taoisttexts (and freeform it seems) I’d suggest if you think yuan jing > yuan qi is just a theoretical model, it’s only because you haven’t actually come across this subtle essence and it’s conversion, not that it doesn’t exist. In the words of a wise man, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

Edited December 15, 2022 by Bindi

[Wilhelm]

21 minutes ago, Bindi said:

@cobie & @taoisttexts (and freeform it seems) I’d suggest if you think yuan jing > yuan qi is just a theoretical model, it’s only because you haven’t actually come across this subtle essence and it’s conversion, not that it doesn’t exist. In the words of a wise man, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

This brought to mind an old stats quote: "All models are wrong.  Some are useful" 

 

Could you talk a bit about your experience with Yuan Jing to Yuan Qi conversion, Bindi?

[Wu Ming Jen]

Chi is energy building. Jing is energy saving and Shen awareness. 

 

Chi, the first Treasure, is the energy that creates our vitality

 

Yin and Yang change is brought into being. Qi is the activity of Yin and Yang. Movement, functioning and thought is the result of Qi. The nature of Qi is to move. 

 

Jing is the second Treasure and is translated as “Regenerative Essence,”  It is considered extremely difficult to enhance the original Jing after conception, although it is not at all difficult to deplete and weaken it, and thus to weaken and shorten one’s life.

 

 If postnatal Jing is maintained at sufficient levels, prenatal Jing is used much more slowly. 

 

Shen is the third Treasure. Shen is the Holy Spirit which directs Qi. It may also be translated as our “higher consciousness.” 

 

Our true Spirit, which the Chinese call Shen, is the spark of divinity that resides within the heart of every human being and manifests as love, kindness, compassion, generosity, giving, tolerance, forgiveness, mercy, tenderness and the appreciation of beauty.

 

Chi = vitality, Jing = essence, Shen = Spirit.         I find this interesting because most express Jing as being vitality

 

The real interpretation of the three treasures can be understood by collecting experience through self-awareness. This does include Qi Gong, Tai Chi and Kung Fu training. 

 

There is another level of  Chi, Jing, Shen that predates our body because we are all born with these treasures. If we get buoyed by relating these energy aspects to our physical body only we get half way there. We call them three but they are one.

[Wilhelm]

18 hours ago, freeform said:

Some teachers also report that the penis shrinks down to its pre-pubescent state over time too

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Just wanna scare off most of the young men before getting into the juicy bits 😂

 

But I’m not making it up - that’s something I’ve heard at least two decent teachers say.

 

And I had just gotten my old lady on board with the idea that I might look like a peeled potato once the 'filling' process hits a certain stage 😂 

 

But if its your teachers relaying this development (and not yourself), then I think most of us wouldn't have to worry about that for quite a while.

17 hours ago, freeform said:

 

But that’s not even the full process - there’s all sorts of gathering of ingredients, fusions, refinements, aging and maturation… and many other side branches that may or may not be useful (eg generating inner sight… working on the Chong mai, memory, Ming, meditative methods etc).

Does your tradition develop these side branches on an as-needed basis, or is there some other considerations involved?

 

Quote

When it comes to the ‘Jing to Qi’ step, I personally prefer to think in terms of qualities rather than conversions. Sinking - rising, condensing - expanding, settling - stimulating etc etc.

So at this stage practitioners should primarily concern themselves with achieving and maintaining the ideal qualities of Jing, which is observable from the outcomes of those qualities (i.e. shown physically in the perineum, but also insubstantially in the psychology)

Quote

The key quality for ‘full’ Jing is settling. You can think of settled Jing as a still lake… but then desire, fear, compulsiveness, overthinking, stress, emotions, inner turmoil and drama - these all cause ripples in the lake… and an unsettled lake will not allow for Qi production (at least not to the extent that’s required).

Great advice, thank you 🙏

Quote

One of the reasons many teachers start out with Yang Sheng practices like Qigong and Dao yin is that they help clear out some of the ripple-causing aspects… they help to generate Qi and create some of the conditions necessary for you to be able to settle.
 

So in a way you’re generating Qi even before doing anything on the Jing level!

 

This reminds me of the first line from the Classic of breath and Qi consolidation 

http://lotusneigong.com/the-classics-of-breath-and-qi-consolidation/

"In order to strengthen the Jing you should consolidate your Qi,"

Edited December 16, 2022 by Wilhelm

[awaken]

煉精化氣有兩個層面，第一個，講的是有氣感，第二個，講的是精已經完全化成氣，因為沒有精了，而練到這個程度的人，男的沒有精液，女的沒有經血，入定態也已經進入虛空大定，圓月，霜飛，真人，金丹就會開始出現。

 

如果你只想知道第一個，有氣感的程度，基本上你只要加強你的火，你就可以做到有氣感了。

 

分享一段我昨天剛寫出來的文章

 

There are two levels of refining and transforming qi. The first one is talking about the feeling of qi, and the second is talking about the fact that the essence has been completely transformed into qi, because there is no essence, and people who have practiced to this level, men have no semen , the woman has no menstrual blood, and she has entered the samadhi state, and the full moon, the frost, the real person, and the golden elixir will begin to appear.

If you only want to know the first one, the degree of feeling of qi, basically you just need to strengthen your fire, and you can achieve feeling of qi.

Share an article I just wrote yesterday

 

and  sorry that I don't know how to translate it to English

 

劉一明版的黃鶴賦

粵兮最上一乘，乃無作而亦無為。還丹七返，因有動而方有靜。上德以道全其形，是其純乾之未破；下德以術延其命，乃配坎離而方成。是以用陰陽之道，即依世法而修出世之法；效男女之生，必發天機而作泄天之機。方欲性命以雙修，須仗法財而兩用。先結同心為輔佐，次覓巨室以良圖。

然欲希世之妙道，必須密叩於玄關。擇善地，慎事之機密；置丹房，器皿之相當。安爐立鼎，配內外兩個陰陽；煉己築基，固彼我一身邦國。對景忘情，須憑銳氣之勇猛；煨爐鑄劍，全借金水之柔剛。若運用，若抽添，慮險而須當沐浴；若鼓琴，若敲竹，知雄而便宜守雌。百日功靈，曲直而即能應物；一年純熟，潛躍而無不由心。能盜彼殺中之生氣，以點我離內之陰精。玉液金液，一了性而一了命；二候四候，半在坎而半在離。始焉將無入有，龍居虎位，要知藥物之老嫩；終焉流戊就己，虎會龍宮，須辨水源之清濁。煉己待時，務要陽生於赤縣；遇機臨爐，必須癸動於神州。若觀見龍在田，須猛烹而極煉；忽聞虎嘯入窟，可倒轉而逆施。火逼金行出坤爐，故名七返；金因火煉歸乾鼎，是曰九還。還者，乾所失而復得之物；返者，我已去而又來之真。殊不知，順則生人生物，逆則成佛成仙。雖分彼我，非閨丹禦女之術；惟知一己，有鵬鳥圖南之志。坎中一點黑鉛，號曰先天，非同類而終不能得；離內七般硃砂，是名孤陰，無真種則時刻難留。是以假乾坤，立鼎爐，覓太乙所含之始氣；借陰陽，作筌蹄，求水府默蘊之玄珠。

趨遄時，補我乾之一缺。俄然間，還彼坤之六虛。到此水歸神室，位列仙班。大抵丹落黃庭，千靈胥參，上帝嘉贊，天地驚寒，抱元守一，溫養十月，神有象，虛極靜篤，坐忘九載體無形。行滿三千，斯其道術造端，似依正而除邪；功完八百，就中火候託始，如以奇而用兵。鉛與汞，無丙叟東西間隔；嬰與奼，無黃婆咫尺參差。識急緩，辨吉凶，在匠手以斟酌；明進退，知止足，豈愚昧而能為？認消息，如海之潮信；審造化，似日月之盈虧。三日出庚，乃一陽生於坤地；十五圓甲，則六爻周乎乾元。泄金竅，鑿混沌，露老莊之肺腑；明坤戶，飲刀圭，吐伯陽之心肝。

今遇學仙龍江子，夙具道骨仙豐，名在丹台玉室，遂結煙霞同志之友，願發龍虎秘藏之機。須尋火候，早餌黍珠，他日臻於閬苑玄圃，亦可歎伊骨死屍。

此賦乃祖師在黃鶴樓題書，示龍江子之文，其文已遍流於世，惜其未見刻本。數十年所見者，皆抄錄之文，其中字句錯訛者甚多。求其刻本，終不可得。餘恐其久而愈錯愈訛，揀其錯訛稍少者，刊刻普傳，不過暫存於板，非便以此為成案。若有見刻本者，更望校正更換，刊梓傳世，庶不枉祖師當年啟後之婆心矣！

棲雲山素樸散人劉一明述刊 後進學人夏複恆重梓

－－－－－－－－－

 

趨遄時，補我乾之一缺。俄然間，還彼坤之六虛。

 

趨：趨向，趨勢

遄：快速

我乾之一缺：離火

 

俄然：片刻，突然

彼坤：坎水

六虛：變動不居，周流六虛（易經繫辭）

 

趨向快速時，說的就是動功，動功才會變快。我乾之一缺，就是離火，火為乾，為我，前面說過丹道有兩個陰陽，水火vs.金木，水（坤）為彼，火（乾）為我，金（坤）為我，木（乾）為彼，所以「我乾」就是離火，離火一缺，離就是一個缺，一缺就是一個形容，我乾本身就是離火了，離火的六爻就是一缺，一缺等於多出來的形容詞，為了對應後面的六虛。

 

這一句的意思就是，動功時補火，也就是動功時用武火，武火就是要額外補火，才能變成武火。

 

片刻間，就能造成彼坤之六虛，知道我乾是火，那彼坤就是水。六虛就是取易經繫辭之意，變動不居，周流六虛。說的就是氣變動周流六虛，六虛就是六個方位，到處之意。

 

整段就是動功時武火，就能造成氣周流全身。

 

這段我看了很久，看不懂，找了網路資料，也找不到有人看得懂，直到看到「我乾」「彼坤」才悟出到底在說什麼。

 

剛開始把一和六，解釋為水，但是狗屁不通，後來從我彼下手，才看懂一缺講的是離的一缺，六虛講的是易經繫辭的六虛

 

「天地設位，而易行乎其中。天地者，乾坤之象也；設位者，列陰陽配合之位也；易謂坎離者，乾坤二用。二用無爻位，周流行六虛，往來既不定，上下亦無常，幽潛淪匿，變化於中，包囊萬物，為道紀綱，以無制有，器用者空，故推消息，坎離沒亡。」

講的應該就是參同契這段

 

 

 

Share a beautiful song I am listening

 

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by awaken

[MetaDao]

16 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

I appreciate your concerns, but this is a discussion forum 😂 if I stop listening to everyone who thought different from me then id be guilty of the sort of dogmatism you rightly warned about earlier.

 

I was grateful to learn your own understanding of the process as well, but what fun is it to shut down anyone who's understanding differs?  

 

For goodness sake, you've only been training with him for about a year, right?  Nobody could expect you to have all the answers so quickly...

You misunderstand what I’m saying. Basically everyone on here besides @freeform do not understand much of the alchemical process at all.

 

To ask for answers on here is folly. Likewise, you don’t really need to listen to anybody about alchemy except for your direct teachers. Then, practice leads you to your own answers and conclusions. 

 

 

[Wilhelm]

2 hours ago, MetaDao said:

 

I understand your point.  We see things differently, which is fine 🤷

Edited December 16, 2022 by Wilhelm

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, awaken said:

There are two levels of refining and transforming qi. The first one is talking about the feeling of qi, and the second is talking about the fact that the essence has been completely transformed into qi, 

Thanks Awaken! 

 

There seems to be quite a gap between the two stages, as many report a Qi sensation very quickly into their practice.  Have you or any of your teachers/students completed the second stage?  It sounds like an advanced accomplishment.

[ChiDragon]

21 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

This brought to mind an old stats quote: "All models are wrong.  Some are useful" 

 

Could you talk a bit about your experience with Yuan Jing to Yuan Qi conversion, Bindi?

By definition:
Yuan Jing (元精): is the innate jing already existed in the body.
Yuan Qi (元氣): is the innate Qi in the body.

These two elements must be maintained by the later 精 and 氣 to recycle.

One must understand what they meant before go any further to pursuit the study of Neidan.

PS
Please note that Jing (精) is not semen as the later Taoists thought it was. People are misinterpreted from 精子(semen)

Edited December 16, 2022 by ChiDragon

[Wilhelm]

15 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Please note that Jing (精) is not semen as the later Taoists thought it was. 

Well noted! 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Wilhelm

[Wu Ming Jen]

24 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

PS
Please note that Jing (精) is not semen as the later Taoists thought it was. People are misinterpreted from 精子(semen)

Yes my understanding as well.

 

The modern notion that jing is sexual energy is so missing the point. It is like using mis direction to set a course that misses the target completely.

 

Now for the turtle going back in the shell ( Penis) and cutting of the red dragon (menstrual cycle) this is the natural course. When you have this kind longevity and in that situation it can not be argued. Being premature in the process can be a horrible mistake. 

[awaken]

11 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Thanks Awaken! 

 

There seems to be quite a gap between the two stages, as many report a Qi sensation very quickly into their practice.  Have you or any of your teachers/students completed the second stage?  It sounds like an advanced accomplishment.

 

你很有眼光

兩個現象的確差異很大

第二個現象，我曾經達到，時間大約有半年的時間

 

you're so sight

The two phenomena are indeed very different

The second phenomenon, I have achieved it for about half a year

 

 

除了前面說過的那些內景現象，最明顯的差異是那段時間的睡眠。

當我睡著時，我的裡面是醒著的。

當我醒來時，我是從另外一種醒，轉換成日常生活的醒。

 

Apart from the interior phenomena mentioned above, the most obvious difference is the sleep during that period.

When I was asleep, the inside of me is awake.

When I wake up, I switch from another kind of waking to the waking of everyday life.

 

當然身體上的經血也是那段時間很大的變化，那段時間，我是沒有經血的。

 

Of course, the menstrual blood on the body also changed a lot during that time. During that time, I did not have menstrual blood.

 

我想你的問題應該是練精化氣。我前面所轉貼的中文，就是呂洞賓的詩。

我解釋的那段，就是呂洞賓講關於煉精化氣的部分。

I think your problem should be about refining qi. The Chinese I reposted earlier are Lu Dongbin's poems.

The part I explained was the part Lu Dongbin talked about refining and transforming qi.

 

最重要的部分就是武火。武火就是增加火。

你的注意力如同雷射光一樣，集中在哪裡，哪裡就能產生氣。

當你把你的注意力高度集中，並且加強，就稱為武火。

 

 

The most important part is the martial fire（Wuhuo）. Wuhuo is to increase fire.

Your attention is like laser light, wherever you focus, you can generate qi.

When you concentrate and strengthen your attention, it is called Wuhuo.

 

當你開始練的時候，你加強你的火，這稱為武火。

你的武火將會讓氣產生，並且周流全身。

 

When you start practicing, you strengthen your fire, which is called Wuhuo.

 

Your martial fire will generate qi and circulate it throughout your body.

 

你不需要任何技巧，你的武火只要被動地跟著氣。

剛開始你的氣會集中在某些地區，例如手掌，頭頂。

當你運用武火之後，氣就會開始在身體流動。

這就是呂洞賓這兩句話的意思。

 

You don't need any skills, your Wuhuo just passively follow Qi.

At first your qi will be concentrated in certain areas, such as the palms, the top of the head.

When you use Wuhuo, Qi will start to flow in the body.

This is the meaning of these two sentences of Lu Dongbin.

 

趨遄時，補我乾之一缺。俄然間，還彼坤之六虛。

 

When it gets faster, start replenishing my yang. After a while, my yin will circulate all over my body.

My yang is fire. My yin is water. When Dan Dao mentioned water, it meant Qi.

Edited December 17, 2022 by awaken

[Bindi]

On 16/12/2022 at 8:12 AM, Wilhelm said:

This brought to mind an old stats quote: "All models are wrong.  Some are useful" 

 

 

Say there’s a model of the blood vessels and lymph vessels, or any of the organs, can you really call these models wrong? Or a model of something invisible like a virus, why would this model be wrong? To all intents and purposes it correctly represents the actual thing it’s modelling, I believe the same is possible of the subtle energy body, a functional model is possible though it might be two steps away from the reality of it instead of one, as the subtle energy body model will be in a more metaphorical language. 

 

On 16/12/2022 at 8:12 AM, Wilhelm said:

 

Could you talk a bit about your experience with Yuan Jing to Yuan Qi conversion, Bindi?

I gave my personal take earlier on this thread https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/53700-what-exactly-is-neidaninternal-alchemy/?do=findComment&comment=994095

 

[Taoist Texts]

On 12/16/2022 at 3:49 AM, Bindi said:

@taoisttexts (and freeform it seems) I’d suggest if you think yuan jing > yuan qi is just a theoretical model, it’s only because you haven’t actually come across this subtle essence and it’s conversion, not that it doesn’t exist. In the words of a wise man, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

"The earth hath bubbles, as the water has, and these are of them"

 

4 hours ago, Bindi said:

I gave my personal take earlier on this thread https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/53700-what-exactly-is-neidaninternal-alchemy/?do=findComment&comment=994095

good job! thats a nice qigong experience. not neidan. the hallmarks of neidan: 1. the orbit 2. permanent results.

[Wilhelm]

6 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

Say there’s a model of the blood vessels and lymph vessels, or any of the organs, can you really call these models wrong? Or a model of something invisible like a virus, why would this model be wrong? To all intents and purposes it correctly represents the actual thing it’s modelling, I believe the same is possible of the subtle energy body, a functional model is possible though it might be two steps away from the reality of it instead of one, as the subtle energy body model will be in a more metaphorical language. 

 

I gave my personal take earlier on this thread https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/53700-what-exactly-is-neidaninternal-alchemy/?do=findComment&comment=994095

 

Thanks for sharing.  You're clearly a practitioner who's achieved some things I'm unqualified to comment on, so please know the following is general commentary that doesn't have to do with your experience

 

I think I would say there's a difference between something that can be physically mapped and something that can be conceptually modeled, and I think problems can arise from confusing the two.

 

Asa Hershoff here talks about various models that arose for the chakra system, including the popular seven chakra one (that he traces back to Jung interestingly).  More classical models seem to contradict this one, but its so ingrained in popular Western consciousness at this point I can't imagine most would take kindly to hearing the model they had used for years might not be the be-all end-all.

 

Similarly I learned the arts through the Jing-Qi-Shen model, and its has proved a really useful way for me to 'categorize' all the reactions I feel to the practice, but I'm not sure I could definitely prove its correctness as a model.  If you feel heat/tingling/bubbling/magnetism, and then those are all physical sensations, so couldn't it be said that this is your body's way of interpreting something non-physical?

Edited December 17, 2022 by Wilhelm

[freeform]

On 16/12/2022 at 5:42 AM, Wilhelm said:

Does your tradition develop these side branches on an as-needed basis, or is there some other considerations involved?

Yes, some. My teacher considers certain Shen gong attainments necessary… and they’re not strictly ‘alchemy’ - but are part of some alchemical traditions.

[ChiDragon]

7 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Similarly I learned the arts through the Jing-Qi-Shen model, and its has proved a really useful way for me to 'categorize' all the reactions I feel to the practice, but I'm not sure I could definitely prove its correctness as a model.  If you feel heat/tingling/bubbling/magnetism, and then those are all physical sensations, so couldn't it be said that this is your body's way of interpreting something non-physical?

I looked the three treasures Jing-Qi-Shen from the Chinese explanation. Let's look at Jing(精) again. I gathered that is the substance that makes up the body. In modern science, the cell is the basic unit that makes up the body. From the correlation, may I conclude that the Jing and cell are two identical thing. The two names are differ but came from the same source. Thus there is no doubt in my mind that using the cell to explain the where the heat/tingling are coming from.

I was always wondering about the tingling sensation of my fingers. Here is what I discovered from modern science.
From the cell model, scientist had determined that the cell use the oxygen to decompose the glucose to generate heat and energy. When the blood circulates, it carries heat through the body. At the same time, the tingling is the blood pressure build up in the capillaries. The pressure may cause the capillaries to be ruptured, therefore, the capillaries will contract to prevent from happening, The tingling sensation was from the contraction of the capillaries. The Chinese called that the chi sensation(氣感).

Edited December 17, 2022 by ChiDragon

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Edit: Nvm.  Other folks said it better. Thanks for sharing, anyways 🙏

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Wilhelm

[masta]

21 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I was always wondering about the tingling sensation of my fingers. Here is what I discovered from modern science.
From the cell model, scientist had determined that the cell use the oxygen to decompose the glucose to generate heat and energy. When the blood circulates, it carries heat through the body. At the same time, the tingling is the blood pressure build up in the capillaries. The pressure may cause the capillaries to be ruptured, therefore, the capillaries will contract to prevent from happening, The tingling sensation was from the contraction of the capillaries. The Chinese called that the chi sensation(氣感).

 

but the heat that comes from rubbing hands is not the chi it self , its the aftereffect on blood-flow in the area , which is all after-affect of the chi on the location..the tingling of chi movement is different  and can be thin , aroused , smooth etc..

[freeform]

14 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

correlation

Though it’s easy and fun, correlation is probably the worst logical tool you could use to understand anything even slightly complex.

 

Combine that with using dictionary definitions as your main source of information and that just makes it even worse… It’s like looking up the definition of ‘ophthalmology’ and thinking you now understand how eyes work.

 

And the tingling sensation has nothing to do with qi (not really anyway) - just signals from your nerves  

 

Sorry @ChiDragon - I enjoy your enthusiasm and your help with Chinese translations - but it’s worth pointing out to people unfamiliar with your ways that you’re talking with great conviction about stuff you have zero actual experience or understanding of.

[Cobie]

@ChiDragon I have great respect for your system, it was build up over 40 years of practice. Thanks for sharing it with us. 
 

 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Cobie

[MetaDao]

32 minutes ago, freeform said:

Though it’s easy and fun, correlation is probably the worst logical tool you could use to understand anything even slightly complex.

 

Combine that with using dictionary definitions as your main source of information and that just makes it even worse… It’s like looking up the definition of ‘ophthalmology’ and thinking you now understand how eyes work.

 

And the tingling sensation has nothing to do with qi (not really anyway) - just signals from your nerves  

 

Sorry @ChiDragon - I enjoy your enthusiasm and your help with Chinese translations - but it’s worth pointing out to people unfamiliar with your ways that you’re talking with great conviction about stuff you have zero actual experience or understanding of.

You are preaching to deaf ears.

 

It is harsh to say, but I am convinced many of the people on this forum have no fate for Neidan. Just blind leading the blind.

 

I will say it again: find masters of whichever spiritual path you want to follow, listen to their guidance, disregard those without a path, know that you are ignorant of many things.

 

I at least admit to myself that I am ignorant of a great many things regarding alchemy while also trying to point out the basics when I can. Many people on this forum cannot admit that. They simply believe their own delusions

Edited December 17, 2022 by MetaDao

[Bindi]

10 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

"The earth hath bubbles, as the water has, and these are of them"

 

good job! thats a nice qigong experience. not neidan. the hallmarks of neidan: 1. the orbit 2. permanent results.

If qigong can create and fill dantians, then it would be valuable. As far as I can see it, having the dantians leak-proof and filled and operating to their full potential is a fundamental requirement, upon which the “orbit” can then operate. Seeing initiating the MCO as the only valid step seems shortsighted. 
 

I recall someone once saying that he had initiated the MCO but it was empty, it felt like he was just spinning his wheels, I would take this as not having developed the dantians first, substance is missing. Developing the three dantians successfully would in itself be rare as, they are very complex systems. To refer to dantian development as ‘Just qigong’ seems unnecessarily dismissive. 
 

I can imagine that after the three dantians have been fully developed the orbit self-initiates, in the meantime more dantian development is required for me, not empty MCO’s. 
 

If you had completed dantian development first, I don’t think you would be so dismissive of it, so right now I’m assuming you haven’t.