Jing to Qi

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

If you had completed dantian development first, I don’t think you would be so dismissive of it, so right now I’m assuming you haven’t. 

Dear Bindi i absolutely do not insist that i completed anything so its all good. Your valuable post above however invites some questioning NOT directed at you personally so please feel free to disregard below.

 

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

If qigong can create and fill dantians, then it would be valuable

but every qigonger claims that it does)

https://www.google.com/search?q=+qigong+create+and+fill+dantians%2C&sxsrf=ALiCzsYs-HrMDN-FpW-okL5q596YaOtSSg%3A1671331110136&ei=Jn2eY-X4B4SHrwSeha-wCA&ved=0ahUKEwjlo_zIkYL8AhWEw4sKHZ7CC4YQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=+qigong+create+and+fill+dantians%2C&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzoICCEQwwQQoAFKBAhBGABKBAhGGABQAFimJ2DKLWgAcAF4AIABfYgBxAOSAQMxLjOYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

 

Quote

can create .....dantians,

there is a very strange notion that dantians are 'created' with some secret neidan wizardry. well good news is that they are not. DT is a very ancient concept of traditional chinese medicine first attested in 

《黃帝內經 - Huangdi Neijing》

[Warring States - Western Han (475 BC - 9)] https://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=丹田

and is inherent to everybody. How did the naive idea of creating it originated is not quite clear. Probably as a marketing point by neidan seminar sellers.

 

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

having the dantians leak-proof and filled

this one is interesting. we fill and we fill and we fill DTs one after another yet the end stage is called 'joining the emptiness'. the emptiness is the opposite of filling. Are we sure filling is the way to go?

 

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

the three dantians have been fully developed the orbit self-initiates

 

In genuine neidan 'the full development' of the top DT is the last stage (its in the books). Why would orbit be needed then?

 

3 hours ago, Bindi said:

I recall someone once saying that he had initiated the MCO

i know its a surprise for everybody but sometimes those someones on the interwebs just dont know what they are talking about. yes, it happens.

[awaken]

在丹道的世界裡面，氣感稱為水，光稱為金和木，只有到了五行合一，才稱為丹。

ＭＣＯ屬於水火的層次，是沒有丹的。

 

In the world of alchemy, the sense of qi is called water , light is called gold and wood, and only when the five elements are united is it called elixir.

MCO belongs to the level of water and fire, and there is no elixir.

 

[Cobie]

 

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

《黃帝內經 - Huangdi Neijing》

[Warring States - Western Han (475 BC - 9)] https://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=丹

 

Thank you for the quote.

The bit that follows 丹田 is also very interesting:

其疾病尪瘵者，靜躬祈福即獲祚。若不虔恪輒顛踣，故知至德之宅兆、真人之先祖也。

Google: 

Those who suffer from diseases and convulsions will be rewarded if they bow quietly and pray for blessings. If you are not pious, you will always go back and forth, so you know that the tomb of the most virtuous man is also the ancestor of the real man.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Cobie

[Bindi]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Dear Bindi i absolutely do not insist that i completed anything so its all good. Your valuable post above however invites some questioning NOT directed at you personally so please feel free to disregard below.

 

but every qigonger claims that it does)

https://www.google.com/search?q=+qigong+create+and+fill+dantians%2C&sxsrf=ALiCzsYs-HrMDN-FpW-okL5q596YaOtSSg%3A1671331110136&ei=Jn2eY-X4B4SHrwSeha-wCA&ved=0ahUKEwjlo_zIkYL8AhWEw4sKHZ7CC4YQ4dUDCA8&uact=5&oq=+qigong+create+and+fill+dantians%2C&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzoICCEQwwQQoAFKBAhBGABKBAhGGABQAFimJ2DKLWgAcAF4AIABfYgBxAOSAQMxLjOYAQCgAQHAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

 

 

I personally find it unlikely, but I am bound by my own previous quote to allow that it might be a possibility  

 

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

there is a very strange notion that dantians are 'created' with some secret neidan wizardry. well good news is that they are not. DT is a very ancient concept of traditional chinese medicine first attested in 

《黃帝內經 - Huangdi Neijing》

[Warring States - Western Han (475 BC - 9)] https://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=丹田

and is inherent to everybody. How did the naive idea of creating it originated is not quite clear. Probably as a marketing point by neidan seminar sellers.

 

 

Good point TT. With just a moments thought I must agree, the dantians are there, but I would insist that they are in a state of disrepair, cracked, unsealed, silted up, unflowing etc. 

 

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

this one is interesting. we fill and we fill and we fill DTs one after another yet the end stage is called 'joining the emptiness'. the emptiness is the opposite of filling. Are we sure filling is the way to go?
 

 

I’m very sure filling is the way to go as long as we’re talking about yuan jing, yuan qi and yuan Shen. As for “joining the emptiness”, I don’t think we can assume what that might mean until we experience it, because 99.999% sure our assumption will be wrong.

 

My first question would be are you sure that “joining the emptiness” isn’t a Buddhist add-on?  

 

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

In genuine neidan 'the full development' of the top DT is the last stage (its in the books). Why would orbit be needed then?

 

 

Is 'the full development' of the top DT the last stage, or is joining the emptiness the last stage? Is it the MCO that fills the dantians? What if the MCO is a way of cycling the Yuan energies through the system from top to bottom, like the water cycle of rain > evaporation > cloud etc. A static system might not be dynamic, and if nothing else a functioning subtle body must surely be dynamic. 

 

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

i know its a surprise for everybody but sometimes those someones on the interwebs just dont know what they are talking about. yes, it happens.

 

[freeform]

Creating the cauldron (building the LDT) is required in several traditions I’ve been part of.

 

There are ones that don’t do this… some consider the perineum to be the LDT… some only work on the upper dantien and the various energetic structures there. Some assume that there is already a Dantien and nothing needs to be built.
 

I’ve trained with teachers of each of these methods… and I’ve always found them problematic… either they had no qi or gong or any internal growth/transformation… or they had some very weird and questionable moral development… or all their students (that actually did the training) went mad…

 

The ones that do build the Dantien - also a mixed bag… but they all at least had gong and genuine qi.

 

Filling the LDT is very far from the end result… it’s simply the preparation of one of the required ingredients… it’s just that it takes around a decade to fill. In a way it’s an earlier stage than ‘Neidan proper’.

 

You don’t really fill the upper or middle dantiens… not if you don’t want a heart attack or an aneurism! 

[freeform]

13 hours ago, MetaDao said:

It is harsh to say, but I am convinced many of the people on this forum have no fate for Neidan. Just blind leading the blind.

I don’t think it’s a problem to not have what it takes for Neidan (I certainly sometimes wonder if I do!)

 

The problem is in the ‘blind leading the blind’ bit.

 

If you have little experience, you shouldn’t be leading anyone in anything. Talking with great conviction about stuff you’ve only looked up the dictionary definition of is problematic.

 

If your ophthalmologist became one by just reading the dictionary definition of ‘ophthalmology’ - would you trust him with your eyes?

 

Of course it’s fine not to know, not to have experience in… it’s even fine to discuss stuff you can’t do and don’t really understand. But it becomes problematic when you overvalue your inexperienced opinion and start to spread it to others as the truth. 

[Taoist Texts]

6 hours ago, Cobie said:

Thank you for the quote.

The bit that follows 丹田 is also very interesting:

其疾病尪瘵者，靜躬祈福即獲祚。若不虔恪輒顛踣，故知至德之宅兆、真人之先祖也。

anytime. The bit basically says that there are locations where prayers for health are answered  while impious men are brought down. it means there is a grave of a virtuous man or a grave of an ancestor of a true man in that spot.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Taoist Texts

[Barnaby]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

or all their students (that actually did the training) went mad…

 

Way to go! 

[mcoolio]

Interestingly, these 3 neidan "stages", jing->qi qi->shen shen->emptiness are also sometimes called 3 "barriers".

 

But when referring to the 3 "barriers" it can also refer to the 3 points/regions in the back which are difficult for the qi to overcome in the small circulation.

 

For me personally I can say that it does indeed seem as if there is some region around the sacrum which is especially difficult to loosen.

 

source: https://www.goldenelixir.com/terms/sanguan.html

Edited December 18, 2022 by mcoolio

[awaken]

丹田是產生丹的地方，所以在ＭＣＯ的狀態下，是沒有丹田的。

丹田就是玄關。

 

若觀見龍在田，須猛烹而極煉；忽聞虎嘯入窟，可倒轉而逆施。

 

這句話是呂洞賓的詩

The dantian is the place where the dan is produced, so in the state of MCO, there is no dantian.

Dantian is the entrance.

 

If you see a dragon in the field, you must cook it fiercely and refine it; if you hear a tiger roaring into the cave, you can reverse it and do it the opposite way.

 

This sentence is a poem by Lu Dongbin

 

見龍在田，其中的田，就是丹田

 

所以呂洞賓說得很清楚，只有田是出現龍的地方。

 

而龍就是烏肝光。

 

換句話說，只有出現烏肝光的時候，才有丹田。

 

在氣感狀態下是沒有丹田的，更沒有聚氣在丹田的說法。

 

換言之，我非常肯定，丹田是不需要聚氣的。

 

See the dragon in the field, the field in it is the dantian

So Lu Dongbin made it very clear that only Tian is the place where dragons appear.

And the dragon is black liver light.

In other words, only when there is a black liver light, there is a dantian.

In the state of Qi Sensing, there is no dantian, and there is no such thing as gathering Qi in the dantian.

In other words, I am very sure that the Dantian does not need to gather Qi.

 

ＭＣＯ屬於氣感的層次，也就是水和火。
因此在水和火的層次，是不需要聚氣的。
需要的是將水和火轉換成金和木。
到了金和木的層次，才會產生丹田。

 

MCO belongs to the level of Qi sense, that is, water and fire.
Therefore, at the level of water and fire, there is no need to gather Qi.
What is needed is to convert water and fire into gold and wood.
Only at the level of metal and wood can the dantian be produced.

 

水和火是產生金和木的材料。
金和木才是小藥。
五行俱全之後，才會產生大藥。

 

Water and fire are the materials that produce gold and wood.
Gold and wood are the small medicine.
After the five elements are complete, the great medicine will be produced.

 

而木就是我說過無數次的烏肝光，是一種類似地磁北極的光。

 

And wood is the black liver light that I have mentioned countless times, a light similar to the magnetic North Pole.

 

所以當一個人把注意力集中在腹部的時候，雖然腹部有非常強烈氣感，但是這並不是丹田。
這只是強烈的氣感，稱為水。

 

So when a person focuses on the abdomen, although there is a very strong sense of Qi in the abdomen, it is not the dantian.
It's just a strong sense of Ｑi called water.

 

 

 

 

 

水火的現象比較類似上述的茶壺煮開水的現象

 

The phenomenon of water and fire is similar to the above-mentioned phenomenon of boiling water in a teapot

 

 

 

 

或者說地球的水循環現象比茶壺中的水更接近事實

 

Or the Earth's water cycle is closer to the truth than the water in the teapot

 

 

金木的現象比較類似上述的北極光的現象

 

The phenomenon of gold and wood is similar to the above-mentioned phenomenon of the Northern Lights

 

 

 

 

木星的極光就跟成熟的烏肝非常接近

 

Jupiter's aurora is very close to a mature black liver

Edited December 18, 2022 by awaken

[Taoist Texts]

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

My first question would be are you sure that “joining the emptiness” isn’t a Buddhist add-on?  

it is. there is no modern mainstream neidan without buddhism.

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

Is 'the full development' of the top DT the last stage, or is joining the emptiness the last stage?

these two definitions refer to the same last stage

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

Is it the MCO that fills the dantians?

yes

7 hours ago, Bindi said:

What if the MCO is a way of cycling the Yuan energies through the system .. a functioning subtle body must surely be dynamic. 

no. as usual an amateurish guesswork is a direct  totall opposite to the truth. because the stage before last is specifically called 'stopping the orbit'

[ChiDragon]

On 12/17/2022 at 1:56 PM, masta said:

 

but the heat that comes from rubbing hands is not the chi it self , its the aftereffect on blood-flow in the area , which is all after-affect of the chi on the location..the tingling of chi movement is different  and can be thin , aroused , smooth etc..

The heat from rubbing hands is a physical act. The heat will be picked up by the blood and circulate throughout the body. The body heat doesn't rely on rubbing the whole body to produce it. Biologically, it is the body cell generates your heat constantly. Otherwise, you will become a corpse. A healthy person can generate enough body heat to resist the coldness of the outside temperature.

People place their hands above fire is to pick up the heat. The blood will pick up the heat and circulate to distribute the heat throughout to maintain a constant temperature of the body. That is why people feel warm allover after awhile when they get near fire.

Edited December 18, 2022 by ChiDragon

[Bindi]

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

it is. there is no modern mainstream neidan without buddhism.

these two definitions refer to the same last stage

 

Since I’m not following modern mainstream neidan I can fortunately ignore the Buddhist overlay which I feel has no place in inner alchemy. 

 

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes

no. as usual an amateurish guesswork is a direct  totall opposite to the truth. because the stage before last is specifically called 'stopping the orbit'

Again is this Buddhist overlay? To get to a Buddhist conclusion neidan has to be minimised to be only a path that falls away once trodden.
 

From the Yellow Court External Illumination Scripture the end stage is “Departing from the Heavenly Gate it enters into limitless space”.  “It” the immortal spirit, departing from the head, entering into limitless space. An entity within limitless space, but not disappearing into emptiness in some nondual fashion as Indian tradition would have it. 
 

And if joining the emptiness (and stopping the orbit in order to join the emptiness) can be discarded as Buddhist, then the place of the  MCO becomes something to be discovered, not quoted as a foregone conclusion from old corrupted texts. 

[ChiDragon]

14 hours ago, Bindi said:

Since I’m not following modern mainstream neidan I can fortunately ignore the Buddhist overlay which I feel has no place in inner alchemy. 

Where did you get that idea?

FYI Inner alchemy was designed for every body. It makes a sick body to be healthier. It makes a weak person to become stronger. It makes a healthy person to have immense power.

Edited December 19, 2022 by ChiDragon

[awaken]

12 hours ago, Bindi said:

 

 

From the Yellow Court External Illumination Scripture the end stage is “Departing from the Heavenly Gate it enters into limitless space”.  “It” the immortal spirit, departing from the head, entering into limitless space. An entity within limitless space, but not disappearing into emptiness in some nondual fashion as Indian tradition would have it. 
 

 

 

我找了黃庭經的四個版本，找不到你說的那句話

應該是翻譯錯誤吧

 

I searched for four editions of Huang Ting Jing, but I couldn't find the sentence you said

It must be a translation error

 

 

朝會五臟列三光，

上合天門合明堂，

通利六府調五行，

金木水火土為王，

 

The five viscera are listed in three lights at the meeting,

Upward is consistent with the gate of heaven, and also with the bright hall（forehead）,

To benefit the six Fus and adjust the five elements,

Metal, wood, water, fire, and earth are kings,

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by awaken

[awaken]

The Buddha mentioned golden elixir, but he used the term mandala

 

Alchemy mentions emptiness, but the term used is earth

[Taoist Texts]

39 minutes ago, awaken said:

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

“Departing from the Heavenly Gate it enters into limitless space”.  

 

我找了黃庭經的四個版本，找不到你說的那句話

應該是翻譯錯誤吧

 

I searched for four editions of Huang Ting Jing, but I couldn't find the sentence you said

it is this bit:

出于天门入无间

from 《下部经第三》 https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=397418&remap=gb#p3 

[awaken]

https://zh.m.wikisource.org/zh-hant/黃庭外景經

 

出於無門入無戶

 

another version

出於天門大無閒，

 

 

https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=656610

 

出於無門入無戶

 

第一，這句話是有爭議的，不同版本有不同的用語

第二，無間的意思不是無限的空間

 

First, this sentence is controversial, and different versions have different terms

Second, 無間 does not mean infinite space

 

无间 wújiàn

(1) [very close to each other;do not keep anything from each other]∶中间没有间隙

亲密无间

(2) [continuously;without interruption]∶不间断

气象观测,日夜无间

(3) [unable to distinguish]∶不分别

无间是非

 

https://www.zdic.net/hans/無間

 

 

 

旦夕存在神明光，出於無門入無戶。恬淡無欲養華根，服食玄炁可遂生。

 

若以這個版本來看，講得很明顯是烏肝光，因為烏肝光才會隨時存在，而且出入沒有門戶。

而且是因為恬淡無欲才能產生的。

玄就是黑，代表水，玄氣代表水所產生的氣。

很明顯烏肝光是來自於水，這是符合事實的。

而且烏肝光的打開就是玄關的打開

而玄關出入確實沒有門戶

If you look at this version, it is obvious that it is Black-liver light, because Black-liver light exists at any time, and there is no door for entry and exit.

And it can only be produced because of tranquility and desirelessness.

Xuan is black, representing water, and Xuan Qi represents Qi produced by water.

It is obvious that the black liver light comes from water, which is in line with the facts.

And the opening of Black-liver light is the opening of the entrance(玄關)

And there is really no door in and out of the entrance

Edited December 19, 2022 by awaken

[Taoist Texts]

9 minutes ago, awaken said:

First, this sentence is controversial, and different versions have different terms

Second, 無間 does not mean infinite space

of course. like you correctly said, @Bindi's quote  it is a mistranslation. Not just a wrong translation but a direct opposite of what the original says. It is always the case.

[Bindi]

So the translation could be endlessness or ‘ceaselessness’ as opposed to “limitless space”? 
 

 

Adjective

無間

1. having no gaps in between physically; close; hard to separate
      合作無間{jiàn}
   to have good cooperation
2. having no gaps in between temporally; ceaseless; uninterrupted

Edited December 19, 2022 by Bindi

[ChiDragon]

9 minutes ago, Bindi said:

So the translation should be “no space” or void as opposed to “limitless space”?
 

 

 

I had learned the ancient way of interpretation translated as below.
無間: no gap; no space.　

[awaken]

https://ctext.org/library.pl?if=gb&file=153053&page=10&remap=gb

道藏輯要》尾集二蔣國祚注本

 

 

https://ctext.org/library.pl?if=gb&file=153053&page=72&remap=gb

《修真十書》梁丘子注本

 

 

I looked for an ancient book from the Chinese University of Hong Kong, but I couldn’t find that sentence at all

「出於天門入無間」

 

only see 「出於無門入無戶」

 

「出於天門入無間」This sentence may be the wrong version

Edited December 19, 2022 by awaken

[awaken]

52 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I had learned the ancient way of interpretation translated as below.
無間: no gap; no space.　

 

It is wrong to translate into no space

Because these two words are about relational intimacy, not space

 

合作無間，親密無間

 

In use, it will not extend the meaning into 'no space'

 

Obviously the wrong version, coupled with the wrong Chinese explanation, caused the wrong cognition

[awaken]

https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=702856

 

The only thing related to 「出於天門入無間」 is the book
But we can clearly see from the text
There is no original text「出於天門入無間」in it
but only an explanation

 

內息思存神明光閉目內視，存在神明見吾光。俯仰瞻之，青赤白黃，出於天門入無間出於天門見四鄰，入於無間睹太玄，太玄中有眾妙之門，恬淡無欲養華莖閑居靜處，深固靈珠。素捐世俗，推剛就深含養玉莖，色如桃華，服食玄氣可遂生外為太玄，內為大淵

 

That is to say, the source of this sentence「出於天門入無間」cannot be found in ancient books.

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

So the translation could be endlessness or ‘ceaselessness’ as opposed to “limitless space”? 

no;) that particular word means 'undivided' but that is not the point. the point is that phrase absolutely does not mean 

 

15 hours ago, Bindi said:

the end stage is “Departing from the Heavenly Gate it enters into limitless space”.  “It” the immortal spirit, departing from the head, entering into limitless space.

instead the phrase describes an initial practce of concentrating on the Heavenly Gate, entering an undivided trance state in which he imibibes various cosmic energies as related in the next few sentences, very much staying on the physical plane both in body and spirit