Jing to Qi

[Wu Ming Jen]

Ting Jin 听劲 Listening Strength is one of several types of internal strength or internal workmanship. The name literally means “listening.” If I were having a conversation with someone and didn’t quite hear what they said, I might say ‘ting bu jian’ meaning ‘I’m listening and didn’t hear you.’ But listening strength is not only listening with our ears. It’s listening with the whole body, to everything in the immediate area. It requires concentration and the ability to connect with and become part of your environment.

 

The communication between body and mind is feeling not word form. listening and understanding (Jin) skills must be developed to enter the gate of nei dan. These are the the non verbal communication that we must develop to a high skill (Gong) 

[ChiDragon]

6 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Ting Jin 听劲 Listening Strength is one of several types of internal strength or internal workmanship

This is the term that Taiji practitioners uses for feeling the strength of the counterpart by the sense of touch. The two practitioners must be in contact with each other. Normally, the hands are in contact to feel the amount of force was exerted by one or the other. As soon a force was sensed, it was time to take the countermeasure to neutralize the aggressive force.

[awaken]

https://ctext.org/library.pl?if=gb&file=4145&page=127

 

有找到清朝的四庫全書，裡面有原文

但是有一個問題，務成子是春秋戰國時代的人，而這裡面的註解文並非是春秋戰國時代的語法，而是非常接近現代的語法，故務成子註解應該是託名，也就是假借務成子的名義來寫的，這個版本最早的是來自於雲笈七籤，宋朝

而梁秋子則是唐朝人

 

I have found the Siku Quanshu of the Qing Dynasty, which contains the original text

But there is a problem. Wu Chengzi was born in the Spring and Autumn and Warring States Periods, and the annotation text here is not the grammar of the Spring and Autumn and Warring States Periods, but very close to modern grammar. Therefore, Wu Chengzi’s annotations should be a name, that is, under the guise of Wu Chengzi It was written in the name of , and the earliest version of this version comes from the Seven Signs of Yunji, Song Dynasty

And Liang Qiuzi was from the Tang Dynasty

 

https://zh.daoinfo.org/index.php?title=黃庭內景玉經注（梁丘子）&variant=zh-hant

 

因此根據版本的先後順序，應是梁秋子早於務成子版，可信度較高

 

Therefore, according to the sequence of editions, Liang Qiuzi should be earlier than Wuchengzi edition
Liang Qiuzi's version is more reliable

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by awaken

[Bindi]

11 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

no;) that particular word means 'undivided' but that is not the point. the point is that phrase absolutely does not mean 

 

instead the phrase describes an initial practce of concentrating on the Heavenly Gate, entering an undivided trance state in which he imibibes various cosmic energies as related in the next few sentences, very much staying on the physical plane both in body and spirit

Thanks for your translation TT. To be honest, whether it’s a good idea or not, I would only take my personal experience as valid anyway, all end points are suspect until I myself arrive at the end point. 

[Apech]

13 hours ago, Bindi said:

Thanks for your translation TT. To be honest, whether it’s a good idea or not, I would only take my personal experience as valid anyway, all end points are suspect until I myself arrive at the end point. 

 

Is the end point a Rhino horn? or a cornucopia?

 

 

[Apech]

 

Going back to the original topic, I think that the jing-qi-shen model is an effective and useful one because it reflects well the nature of our beings. We have, for instance, threefold body structures (as does much if not all of nature) that is abdomen – thorax – head. Even a tree say, has roots, trunk and crown. At a subtle body level this could be understood as three spheres of differing activity – and when applied to the processes of neidan, the three dan tiens.

 

At a deeper level or more primal level, we could be said to be bi-polar (like a magnet not a mental condition!) and beyond that even unitary. But in a practical sense we relate to the universe in a three-fold way, which could be summed up in a simple way as energy/will, feeling and thought/awareness.

 

The conception of our being arises because of the coming together of two. Physically sperm and egg, but energetically that which comes from the male parent and that which comes from the female. The subtle energies form a kind cucoon in which the physical body develops. But there is only development if the polar energies remain in relation – and the dynamic of that relationship induces the third (middle sphere) between the two.

 

So while jing-qi-shen may be a mental construct, or a pattern of understanding we present to ourselves, it is a useful and applicable one – given our real-world existence.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Apech

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

But there is only development if the polar energies remain in relation – and the dynamic of that relationship induces the third (middle sphere) between the two.

Could you talk about this a little more?  Is this something that arises in all of us spontaneously or do the polarities have to be cultivated to some degree to relate enough first?

[Wu Ming Jen]

On 12/19/2022 at 11:03 AM, ChiDragon said:

This is the term that Taiji practitioners uses for feeling the strength of the counterpart by the sense of touch. The two practitioners must be in contact with each other. Normally, the hands are in contact to feel the amount of force was exerted by one or the other. As soon a force was sensed, it was time to take the countermeasure to neutralize the aggressive force.

Definitely a Tai Chi skill. I mention it only because with my immortality training these skills lit up for me. I use Ting Jin on a daily bases not just for fighting. No touching required.

[Apech]

18 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Could you talk about this a little more?  Is this something that arises in all of us spontaneously or do the polarities have to be cultivated to some degree to relate enough first?

 

Part of the natural development not to do with cultivation.

 

 

[Bindi]

12 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Part of the natural development not to do with cultivation.

 

 

Interestingly I’ve been cultivating the polarities for decades  

[ChiDragon]

2 hours ago, Bindi said:

Interestingly I’ve been cultivating the polarities for decades  

 Would someone please explain what polarities are. Sometimes, the English translated term do throw me off completely. Perhaps that is why we are having a conflict here.

[Bindi]

1 hour ago, ChiDragon said:

 Would someone please explain what polarities are. Sometimes, the English translated term do throw me off completely. Perhaps that is why we are having a conflict here.

Defining terms is so important. What I mean by polarities is subtle internal Yin/ Yang energies, it makes me wonder what Apech actually meant. 

[awaken]

前面我有說過，丹道裡面提到兩個陰陽，一個是水火，一個是金木。

 

As I said earlier, in the Tao of Alchemy there are two polarities of yin and yang, one is water and fire, and the other is metal and wood.

 

水就是氣
火就是神

 

木就是烏肝
金就是兔髓
都是光

 

能練的，主要是土

土也有分成陰陽
陽土就是流動不斷的念頭
陰土就是背後的思想和信念

通常講的[煉己]就是陰土

 

water is Qi
fire is Shen

 

wood is black liver (WuGan)
gold is rabbit marrow
both are light

 

What can be practiced is mainly soil(or earth)

Soil is also divided into yin and yang
Yang Earth is the flow of thoughts
Yin Earth is the thought and belief behind it

Generally speaking, "refining oneself" is the yin earth

 

 

 

安爐立鼎，配內外兩個陰陽；煉己築基，固彼我一身邦國。

這四句話是呂洞賓的黃鶴賦

講的就是兩個陰陽

 

Set up a furnace and set up a tripod, matching the two yin and yang inside and outside; refining oneself to build a foundation, and solidifying the state of the other and me.

These four sentences are Lu Dongbin's Yellow Crane Fu

It's about two yin and yang

 

外面的陰陽就是水和火

裡面的陰陽就是金和木

 

Yin and Yang outside are water and fire

The yin and yang inside are gold and wood

 

煉己就是性功
築基就是命功

 

Self-improvement is Xing gong
Foundation building is Ming gong

 

 

Xing gong and Ming gong must be practiced at the same time in order to enter the evolution of the two yin and yang

 

If there is only Qi refining, it is equivalent to only practicing Ming gong, and it is impossible to enter the second yin and yang

 

性功和命功必須同時煉，才能進入兩個陰陽的演化

如果只有煉氣，就等於只有煉命功，是無法進入第二個陰陽的

第二個陰陽就是烏肝和兔髓，烏肝為陽，兔髓為陰

特別是兔髓，必須有非常深度的性功才難產生

 

The second yin and yang are black liver and rabbit marrow, black liver is yang, and rabbit marrow is yin

Especially rabbit marrow, it must have very deep Xing gong to be difficult to produce

 

兔髓就是在你入定的時候，你的眼前會浮現白色圓形的光，類似圓月

 

Rabbit marrow means that when you enter Samadhi, a white circular light will appear in front of you, similar to a full moon

 

這個白色圓形的光，是完全不動的，跟你的入定一樣，完全不動

 

This white circular light is completely motionless, just like your Samadhi, it is completely motionless

 

如同星球極光的烏肝會和如同圓月的兔髓在入定中交替出現，這是第二個陰陽

 

The black liver like the aurora of the planet and the rabbit marrow like the full moon will alternately appear in Samadhi, which is the second yin and yang

 

第一個陰陽就是水火，很容易出現

第二個陰陽就是金和木，就很不容易出現了，除非性命雙修

 

The first yin and yang are water and fire, which can easily appear

The second yin and yang are gold and wood, so it is not easy to appear, unless both Xing gong and Ming Gong are cultivated

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by awaken

[Apech]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

Defining terms is so important. What I mean by polarities is subtle internal Yin/ Yang energies, it makes me wonder what Apech actually meant. 

 

I too am wondering what I meant.

[Wilhelm]

8 hours ago, Bindi said:

Defining terms is so important. What I mean by polarities is subtle internal Yin/ Yang energies, it makes me wonder what Apech actually meant. 

Yeah that's what I figured too - Yin/Yang dynamics naturally creating a third sort of Qi, which my teacher just calls mean Qi (mean as in average)

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Yeah that's what I figured too - Yin/Yang dynamics naturally creating a third sort of Qi, which my teacher just calls mean Qi (mean as in average)

 

Yes of course - but what occurs in cultivation is there in nature.  But in some senses the alchemical process may/will reverse normal entropic directions e.g. return to prepubescent sexual energy state (with shrinkage!).  If you see what I mean.

 

Actually I should probably not comment too much on Neidan threads because although I studied it in the past it is not my current thing - and my understanding is a kind of amalgam of various systems and influences.  Also I wasn't in my previous post talking about cultivation at all but simply pointing out that a three-fold energy picture does reflect nature and is therefore useful.

 

 

[Wilhelm]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Yes of course - but what occurs in cultivation is there in nature.  But in some senses the alchemical process may/will reverse normal entropic directions e.g. return to prepubescent sexual energy state (with shrinkage!).  If you see what I mean.

 

Actually I should probably not comment too much on Neidan threads because although I studied it in the past it is not my current thing - and my understanding is a kind of amalgam of various systems and influences.  Also I wasn't in my previous post talking about cultivation at all but simply pointing out that a three-fold energy picture does reflect nature and is therefore useful.

That's fair enough!  I'm guessing, but are you a Tummo practitioner?  If so, you've probably got your own way of describing this process in detail I'm sure.

[Bindi]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Yes of course - but what occurs in cultivation is there in nature.  But in some senses the alchemical process may/will reverse normal entropic directions

 

 

Agreed

 

6 hours ago, Apech said:

e.g. return to prepubescent sexual energy state (with shrinkage!). 
 

 

It seems very likely to me that this concept might be the brainchild of some alchemically challenged dufus  

 

6 hours ago, Apech said:

If you see what I mean.

 

Actually I should probably not comment too much on Neidan threads because although I studied it in the past it is not my current thing - and my understanding is a kind of amalgam of various systems and influences.  Also I wasn't in my previous post talking about cultivation at all but simply pointing out that a three-fold energy picture does reflect nature and is therefore useful.

 

 

 

[Apech]

4 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

That's fair enough!  I'm guessing, but are you a Tummo practitioner?  If so, you've probably got your own way of describing this process in detail I'm sure.

 

I do mainly mahamudra practices not tummo itself.  I also do energy work of various kinds.

[Apech]

3 minutes ago, Bindi said:

 

Agreed

 

 

It seems very likely to me that this concept might be the brainchild of some alchemically challenged dufus  

 

 

 

Maybe.

 

 

[Shadow_self]

On 18/12/2022 at 12:06 PM, freeform said:

The ones that do build the Dantien - also a mixed bag… but they all at least had gong and genuine qi.

 

Filling the LDT is very far from the end result… it’s simply the preparation of one of the required ingredients… it’s just that it takes around a decade to fill. In a way it’s an earlier stage than ‘Neidan proper’.

 

The fact that people are overlooking this, tells me they don't know as much as they would like to think they do  

 

19 hours ago, awaken said:

The second yin and yang are black liver and rabbit marrow, black liver is yang, and rabbit marrow is yin

 

I was hoping someday you'd come outright and mention this...

 

 

Im going to assume the sun and moon comment I made has still not become clear.

 

This image might help

 

 

Thats a rather interesting image isnt it

 

A black crow/raven in the sun

A white hare/rabbit in the moon

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Shadow_self

[awaken]

refine Qi to transform Shen
The problem is that most people only practice Qi, but not Shen

 

 

The state of black liver is Yangshen
Rabbit marrow status is Yinshen

 

陽神日魂，陰神月魄。

 

https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=209399#陰陽精氣章第十六

 

from《養性立命章第二十》

 

 

Practicing Qi is to transform into Shen 
How many people practice Qi now to transform themselves into Shen?

This kind of teachers who do not transform Qi into Shen is everywhere

Moreover, such  teachers charge fees everywhere openly.

 

 

Qi is water.

Yang Shen is wood.

Water produce wood.

 

Does this kind of teacher who trains qi without transforming Shen know what is "water-born wood"?

 

Those teachers who divide the water cycle into a thousand degrees, do they know what wood is?

 

 

Those who support that teachers who teach water cycle should charge fees should think about it, is a teacher who doesn't even know what is refining qi and transforming Shen qualified to charge fees?

 

Are those teachers who distort the yang Shen and yin Shen into brain illusions eligible to charge fees?

 

Are those teachers who don’t know that the source of ‘water-growing wood’ is from the Pure Land, entitled to charge?

 

Those teachers who teach you one hundred postures and one hundred breathing methods don't know what is refining qi and turning into Shen. Are you sure you want to continue practicing with him?

Edited December 27, 2022 by awaken