any ken wilber fans here?

[Todd]

I'm glad that you are ambivalent or multivalent toward my post. I am ambivalent toward it myself. It was inspired by genuine experience, but it had the effect of obscuring that experience in me.

 

I'll try to be a little clear.

 

The experience is of exploration beyond words, ideas, identification, desires. All of those things arise within what is exploring, and are an expression of it. The quality of this exploration is such that there is no ground on which to stand. I cannot rest on any thought, even though thoughts arise with tremendous energy at times. It is the origin.

 

I am familiar with this origin as something that I visit from time to time, but what I have been exploring more recently is a shift of identity from the thing that goes in and out of this origin, to the origin itself. As this shift occurs, the origin is no longer an origin, but merely everything, and obvious. It has always been this way, only my attention has been focused on thoughts, identity, desires...

 

All of this likely sounds familiar to you. The key, though, is going from moving in and out of the origin, and using that experience to inform our day to day lives, to simply being the origin, with the movement in and out occurring as an aspect of the origin.

 

I freely admit that this makes no sense. If it makes sense, then you aren't looking at it closely enough. There is always an assumption being made, as you alluded to saying that words are cumbersome, which is my point exactly. The words do play a role, but to make the shift to which I am referring, words need to be left behind. Perhaps you have left them behind, and you are just having fun with philosophy and ideas, trying to increase the clarity of your expression. But if that isn't the case, how is it that we manage to hide our true nature, which we have experienced, from ourselves?

 

It isn't useful to take an experience of true nature and to make a philosophy out of it. It just becomes a huge distraction from what is happening right now. If the experience isn't vibrant and present, then we are hiding it from ourselves. Philosophy becomes a substitute.

 

This is why the most precise expressions of truth are so vague. They are as close as we can get to truth, taking something about which nothing true can be said, and connecting it to our experience. They are like a mirror for the ways in which we fracture ourselves. If we can catch ourselves at it, there is the opportunity to pause, and then wholeness is apparent. It has always been here.

 

The expressions' vagueness is even too concrete, however, and truth, though obvious, can never be held, or described, or really pointed toward. We can only point in the vicinity, as you alluded to by saying, "vaguely."

 

I guess I am just offering vague counterpoint to thoughts of precise expression. I understand the allure, and when we combine raw brain power with the source of originality, it can seem very vital. In your experience does translation into words tend to reveal more of the original aliveness, or does the aliveness fade at some point as you refer more and more to words?

 

All that said, if you feel like doing anything, including having fun with philosophy, then have at it! I'm not judging. I'm not sure what I am doing.

[Sahaj Nath]

Beautiful, Todd.

 

simply beautiful.

 

 

i can't help but wonder how could you possibly know that this dialog is exactly what i need at this current transitional period i'm in?

 

thank you.

 

i really have no words to offer at this moment, other than 'Thank You.'

 

 

Thank You.

[de_paradise]

I think we will see more of Ken Wilbur's type more and more, which is marrying Western sociology and psychological models with Eastern experiential direct knowing facilitated by meditation. This experiential knowlege is where the west has been sorely lacking.

 

The Clare Graves/Spiral dynamics model has appealed to me since I heard of it, even though I know its just another sociological model, not the gospel--I use this model in life to understand the values and ethics of people I meet here and there, and I find it quite robust. Without an explanitory model, its easy for people to misinterpret the push towards spirituality not as an evolution rather a retrogression to religion and mysticism. This is a point I like to make really clear to people as I explain why I'm "into" spirituality and meditation, instead of social climbing and making loads of money.

 

Wilbur seems to be an articulate cobbler of ideas. Its probably not important how enlightened he really is or isnt; or who he took his ideas from, its the direction that intuitively appeals to me.

[Todd]

I didn't know. I was following a feeling.

 

I'm glad that it worked for you.

 

Anything that you got from it came from you.

Edited May 12, 2008 by Todd

[gendao]

there's good stuff in the magazine from time to time. it's made me rethink some assumptions. but for the most part i'm not a big fan of WIE. i don't lay that at ken's feet, though. that's andrew cohen's deal.

Yea, Ken takes a very scholarly, academic, verbose approach to expressing far simpler concepts...but I generally still like the points he ultimately makes.

 

Whereas for Andrew Cohen & WIE - I think it's just plain misleading advertising. And ultimately, I think, even corruptive...as the last thing we need IMO is Communist-Taoism, Freudian-Yoga or neoconservative-Buddhism.

 

To me, it's like Taoism vs. Confucianism. I am Taoist because I love the pure & powerful simplicity of it...as opposed to the sociological, worldy focus of Confucianism.

Edited May 12, 2008 by vortex

[rain]

"I'm glad that you are ambivalent or multivalent toward my post.

 

The experience is of exploration beyond words, ideas, identification, desires. The quality of this exploration is such that there is no ground on which to stand.

I am familiar with this origin as something that I visit from time to time, but what I have been exploring more recently is a shift of identity from the thing that goes in and out of this origin, to the origin itself. As this shift occurs, the origin is no longer an origin, but merely everything, and obvious. It has always been this way, only my attention has been focused on thoughts, identity, desires...

 

Perhaps you have left them behind, and you are just having fun with philosophy and ideas, trying to increase the clarity of your expression. But if that isn't the case, how is it that we manage to hide our true nature,

I guess I am just offering vague counterpoint to thoughts of precise expression. "

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Todd

I read your words this morning. And it was - fresh and felt healing.

You are on to something I can only aspire to handle.. I am grateful for your words.

I think you are very brave.

Edited May 12, 2008 by rain

[Todd]

Hi Rain,

 

I'm not brave. I just do what comes natural.

 

I find out what comes natural by being quiet.

[Sunya]

for those that read Wilber, what books do you recommend? i want to dig deep into his writings, i have the Essential Ken Wilber but thats just a primer.

 

is his modern model different than his older books written in the 80s ? should i stick to his new writings?

 

for anyone what wants Wilber's ILP - Integral Life Practice DVD,

here is the torrent

 

http://thepiratebay.org/tor/4274998/Ken_Wilber_-_ILP_DVDs

 

of course, only download if you legally own a copy DUH! heheh

[Sunya]

after scouring the net I found that the best introductions to wilber's work are these

 

http://www.amazon.com/Brief-History-Everyt...f=cm_lmf_tit_10 book

 

http://www.amazon.com/Wheres-Wilber-At-Int...3839&sr=1-3 book

 

http://www.amazon.com/Kosmic-Consciousness...3857&sr=1-1 Audio CDs (found a torrent for this one)

Edited July 26, 2008 by mikaelz

[Seth Ananda]

Im a bit of a Wilbur fan as well. the funny thing is i have not read a single book of his. I just keep reading quotes and excerpts from him in other peoples stuff. The counseling course I'm doing draws heavily on him in areas.

Have you read any of A.H. Almass? i love his diamond approach stuff. I think his levels of realization and his intergration of East/West stuff go further than Wilbur. Wilbur has quoted him quite a bit in places. Just my perspective. Thanks.

Seth.

Sat Chit Anand!

[SFJane]

I like his work. Apparently he's a total egomaniac who slays anyone who dares confront his person. I've only read "Up From Eden" which I enjoyed a great deal. I love the whole evolution of consciousness thing.

 

 

I have not read any of his stuff except select pieces. I know several people on the intarwebs that totally adore the guy. Frankly I am hot for bald guys. I thought he looked like Lex Luthor mmmmm.

 

 

But that said. I found this which unsettled me.

 

That and when I got to reading his little soundbites about meditation I got the impression of a narcissist that did not know what real meditation was.

 

Maybe I am wrong,

 

Deconstructing Ken Wilbur

Edited August 10, 2008 by SFJane

[Sahaj Nath]

I have not read any of his stuff except select pieces. I know several people on the intarwebs that totally adore the guy. Frankly I am hot for bald guys. I thought he looked like Lex Luthor mmmmm.

But that said. I found this which unsettled me.

 

That and when I got to reading his little soundbites about meditation I got the impression of a narcissist that did not know what real meditation was.

 

Maybe I am wrong,

 

Deconstructing Ken Wilbur

 

 

as always, much appreciated.

 

 

i was just talking about this with one of my guys yesterday. i think it was on page 14 of the pdf book you linked. he tends to be, as i put it, 'fast & loose' with some of his analysis and facts, like punctuated evolution and the whole "a half wing won't do" argument. it seems to be a fairly consistent type of flaw in his work, and as such it doesn't tend to bother me, so long as i can see him coming. i know weak logic and unsubstantiated claims when i see them. but his brilliance in the areas that matter to my personal development is no less beautiful.

 

 

i'll read the entire book sometime this week and then comment on it. the arguments that are laid out look as if they may be more credible than a lot of the detractors i've read.

 

i'm sucker for a good debate. guess old habits die hard.

[rain]

yes.

 

 

quote hundun

"but his brilliance in the areas that matter to my personal development is no less beautiful. "

yes doesnt it make you grateful that some minds make tools for everyone? after reading,

it is like standing on the shoulders of...your parents...if your lucky. it is awesome they actually

help you to have a mind to loose.

 

do so agree about A.H. Almaas. read his book twice. then lost my mind. must reread.

dead solid.

Edited August 10, 2008 by rain