My Opinion of Something of This Entire Subject As a Newcomer Looking In

[NoOne]

This is sure to go well considering I'm journeying into a group of Daoist enthusiasts and probably questioning the fundamentals of the belief system itself  

 

I've been at this for about 1.5 days, but these are my thoughts so far as someone just coming into this; although I saw the John Chan/Mo Pai footage several years ago, I became more interested this time around when I saw it again 2 days ago.

 

I can actually believe that it might be possible to cultivate and project chi as we see in his video. For example:

 

• We have the participation/observation effect in quantum mechanics
• We have scientists like Dean Radin that, assuming the studies are completely genuine, have shown beyond a statistical doubt that intention can skew randomness (such as influencing a random number generator)
• The group from metaportal seem to have the Guinness world record for most people to successfully learn telekinesis
• The construction of the pyramids and gobelki tepe, according to the likes of Graham Hancock, could suggest an alternative, lateral science (e.g. telekinesis, bio-energy, etc) from the one we find ourselves in today (modern physics)
• Clandestine US/Russia official Gov groups using telepaths aka remote viewing for information gathering
• Propaganda (false information, information diversion, information suppression) currently working very well to shape general public opinion on any matter despite being in the information age
• Science being subject to corruption the same as anything else is (e.g. as was seen in spades in the past couple years)
• We also probably really know nothing about who we are and what are purpose here is

 

Stuff like this makes one open to the possibility of entertaining that there is more than we currently have been told/understand.

 

I notice in this industry, for what is supposed to be a humble transcendental practice, is full of marketers. A mix of natives and Westerners charging high prices for courses, promising their method holds the secrets or a better way to progress than another. It feels a lot like the PUA (pick up artist/dating) industry -- an industry full of grandiose claims and reputations that melt away when actually meeting that industries equivalent of their masters.

 

Currently, I am reading "Magus of Java"; it's a fun read. Assuming this phenomena of chi/yang-yin cultivation and projection is real, it's clear this book does a disservice to the entire subject. Either John Chang or Kosta (or both) are spinning tales here.

 

The book is full of clichés, feeling like the beginning of the karate kid. Not that clichés mean it can't be true, however. Though John Chang's master Liao Sifu is basically a god. Even if Kosta's goal wasn't to convince anyone with this book, by taking a subject already extremely controversial and hard to believe, and to then fabricate stories to sell more books undermines the credibility of the entire subject itself (especially considering he was a student of the most believable and skilled practitioner of Neidang/gong, according to feats on camera that we have).

 

I can understand the Chinese myth style of storytelling from natives of Indonesia/China/The East, but this Kosta guy is a western academic and former Engineer -- he should know better. So, either the master himself is lying or its Kosta; in Kosta's case, considering the wise and masterful John allowed Kosta to train under him, which surely involved character/karma judgement to be taken on as a student, it speaks poorly of John as well. As I said, it undermines the validity of the whole subject/industry.

 

On a related note, as I look through these forums its clear that people advocate seeing a teacher; that one cannot learn proper neidan/gong from books alone.

 

First, I will say this seems like a good financial model for teachers.

 

Second, if we go back to the "Magus of Java" book, Mo Pai system, there are 72 mentioned levels. It is made clear the difference between level 0 (the uninitiated) and even level 1 represents a huge disparity. And level 1 to 4 further still. As John Chang, a genius of genetics and skill, was apparently level 4, being at level 72, as also clearly stated, would represent a massive difference in power/skill. Even if the book is heavily exaggerated, I'm sure the difference is still massive between level 0-1, 1-4, and 4-72.

 

If chi/yin-yang is indeed intrinsic to every human (to a greater or lesser extent), it seems to me there should be a lot of people that can achieve level 1, 2, 3 or equivalent spontaneously from simply meditating for many years. For example, level 1-4 is beginner territory relative to level 72; in virtually any subject of human endeavor, one can fairly easily become a beginner (e.g. assuming physics has 72 levels, it would not be really hard to reach level 2 for anyone with a book or DVD, and not requiring in person guidance).

 

Yet the claims are that for some reason despite these forces being available to every human, the process requires such meticulous implementation that one cannot do it without in-person guidance. And yet, despite this, there are several different methods/schools/styles of neidan/gong to get you there besides Mo Pai (suggesting there are overlapping fundamentals).

 

As I see it, there is only one way to truly be in a meditative state: to quiet the inner chatter long enough to enter the void state (the state of no perception). And there can only be so many ways to manipulate the breath/chi (and surely it can be explained ((for the most part)) in a book). And, there are only so many ways one can visualize the flow of chi/yin-yang internally in the body; especially considering everyone will visualize a process slightly differently, this suggests to me that intention is probably the primary mechanism here (the driving force really behind the visualization aspect of the practice).

 

All of this suggests to me that it shouldn't be so damn hard to learn. If the feats of John Chang are real, they should be able to be taught from a book. Otherwise, it seems to me that something is fishy here, and I'm thinking we might just have concepts and stories that are playing to our imaginations as well as offering an evergreen financial niche for the teachers.

 

As I said at the beginning, I have 1.5 days of experience in neidan/gong but not in the greater subject (parapsychological/paranormal phenomena at large). This makes me less attached to it and able to see the flaws, but can also make me ignorant.

 

I would welcome anyone who can refute my rationale here and elucidate me on what I might be missing. I am interested in neidan/gong for health reasons, meaning, and purpose, and would very much like there to be more benefits and feats to it beyond those simply achieved from a disciplined mind and a general meditative practice.

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by NoOne

[awaken]

you are smart and wise
It is true that there are many lies hidden in the qigong and religious circles
The number of real practitioners is very small
Unless you have the heart of a practitioner yourself, it is very difficult for you to find out who is a real practitioner

[freeform]

4 hours ago, NoOne said:

the process requires such meticulous implementation that one cannot do it without in-person guidance

Could you learn to play the violin from a book?

[Barnaby]

Whoa! Cool to see a newcomer asking the big questions right up front

 

I have no knowledge of Mo Pai, so I can't talk about that. Also, there are people here with much more experience of these practices than me. But I do have some years' experience myself, so here goes...

 

4 hours ago, NoOne said:

I notice in this industry, for what is supposed to be a humble transcendental practice, is full of marketers. A mix of natives and Westerners charging high prices for courses, promising their method holds the secrets or a better way to progress than another.

 

This is absolutely true. There are people out there using dubious credentials to extract large sums of money from the credulous. Otherwise sensible people do seem surprisingly capable of putting their critical faculties on hold in this field. I have direct experience of this. But I also have a second cousin who gave away all her money, savings, house etc. to a happy-clappy Christian group and left her kids with nothing. So it's not something that's limited to the Asian arts.

 

My recommendation would be to be dubious of anyone who's selling the dream. These arts are like the martial arts or learning a musical instrument. The key to progress is diligent daily practice over an extended period. The investment you make in time and commitment has a much bigger impact on your progress than the up-front financial one.

 

But for me, the specificity of the Daoist arts is that they are body-based arts. You talk about meditation, and that's cool with me (I'm into it ). But in my experience, it's not the cornerstone of the Daoist practices. They're much more concerned with energy, and thus the body.

 

Now when it comes to meditation, I actually think you probably could learn it from a book. Purely in terms of techniques. But the thing about meditation is that if you commit to the practice, there are necessarily going to be times when you find yourself confronting stuff in your mind that you have spent a lot of your life trying to avoid. And at those times, it is valuable to be accompanied by someone who has been down that road before you.

 

But like I say, the strictly Daoist stuff involves the body, and that makes it different. It's like, do you think you could learn the guitar properly off the internet? I mean, you could try, but you might end up with bad finger positioning or crappy timing. When there are really simple exercises that could have fixed that straightaway, if you'd had a teacher who could see how you were progressing and what stuff you needed to work on.

 

So I suppose what I'm trying to say is that the fact you're right about the first part doesn't mean you don't need a teacher. Because technique is important.

 

It's like with your dating stuff. If you wanted to devote your life to approaching women, I'm sure there are more and less effective ways of doing that. But I'm not suggesting you need a teacher to work out what they are...    

 

 

[NoOne]

44 minutes ago, freeform said:

Could you learn to play the violin from a book?

 

I think you could from a video.

[Barnaby]

1 minute ago, NoOne said:

I think you could from a video.

 

Nope, no way.

[NoOne]

2 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

Nope, no way.

 

You could acquire some level of competency with video courses for violin, surely. For example, I learned to play the piano from an app and according to someone who was classically trained, I made great progress for the time I had been playing, and was an absolute beginner prior.

 

Conversely, with neidan/gong it seems that video courses amount to nothing practically, based on what I'm seeing here.

Edited December 20, 2022 by NoOne

[Barnaby]

2 minutes ago, NoOne said:

You could acquire some level of competency with video courses for violin, surely.

 

To my mind:

 

Competency? Err... Maaaybe... 

 

Expertise? No

 

[NoOne]

2 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

To my mind:

 

Competency? Err... Maaaybe... 

 

Expertise? No

 

 

Right, I am hoping for something to build competency in neidan/gong, not expertise. Unless you're extremely skilled, it would be very difficult without a teacher.

 

But it seems that people here are suggesting that you pretty much cannot get anywhere without a teacher.

 

So let me ask this way: What might you recommend to achieve competency in neidan/gong in terms of books and/or readily available video?

[Barnaby]

6 minutes ago, NoOne said:

So let me ask this way: What might you recommend to achieve competency in neidan/gong in terms of books and/or readily available video?

 

Sorry, but I can't recommend anything. That's not the path I took.

[freeform]

1 hour ago, NoOne said:

But it seems that people here are suggesting that you pretty much cannot get anywhere without a teacher.

No - you can certainly make headway… you’re just bringing up people like John Chang who’d be like the First Chair violinist for a top orchestra… vs the awful screeching you’d manage from a book or even video (violin is very different to piano! Which is why I made that specific comparison.)

 

This internal stuff takes decades of hard work… if you’re doing it to burn newspapers or zap people, you’ll quit way before acquiring any skill. 

 

It takes time, discipline and sacrifice (of both money and a ‘normal’ life). 2 to 6hrs a day, every day for decades on end… and beyond the very basics, it’s really difficult, uncomfortable work. Not fun, not relaxing, unpleasant and not respected by 99.9% of the world.

 

If it’s not a deep calling inside of you - then it’s far better to get into a sport you enjoy, and use your efforts on helping others in some way.

But if you still want to have a go - then you should  

 

In terms of recommendations, I tend to recommend Damo, because his training was most similar to mine - and coz he’s a decent person. He has lots of free stuff on YouTube - anchoring the breath, sinking the qi and the kidney and spleen practices are good if you want to dip your toes.

 

There are other recommendations all over the forum though  

[Shadow_self]

7 hours ago, NoOne said:

This is sure to go well considering I'm journeying into a group of Daoist enthusiasts and probably questioning the fundamentals of the belief system itself  

 

I've been at this for about 1.5 days, but these are my thoughts so far as someone just coming into this; although I saw the John Chan/Mo Pai footage several years ago, I became more interested this time around when I saw it again 2 days ago.

 

I can actually believe that it might be possible to cultivate and project chi as we see in his video. For example:

 

• We have the participation/observation effect in quantum mechanics
• We have scientists like Dean Radin that, assuming the studies are completely genuine, have shown beyond a statistical doubt that intention can skew randomness (such as influencing a random number generator)
• The group from metaportal seem to have the Guinness world record for most people to successfully learn telekinesis
• The construction of the pyramids and gobelki tepe, according to the likes of Graham Hancock, could suggest an alternative, lateral science (e.g. telekinesis, bio-energy, etc) from the one we find ourselves in today (modern physics)
• Clandestine US/Russia official Gov groups using telepaths aka remote viewing for information gathering
• Propaganda (false information, information diversion, information suppression) currently working very well to shape general public opinion on any matter despite being in the information age
• Science being subject to corruption the same as anything else is (e.g. as was seen in spades in the past couple years)
• We also probably really know nothing about who we are and what are purpose here is

 

Stuff like this makes one open to the possibility of entertaining that there is more than we currently have been told/understand.

 

I notice in this industry, for what is supposed to be a humble transcendental practice, is full of marketers. A mix of natives and Westerners charging high prices for courses, promising their method holds the secrets or a better way to progress than another. It feels a lot like the PUA (pick up artist/dating) industry -- an industry full of grandiose claims and reputations that melt away when actually meeting that industries equivalent of their masters.

 

Currently, I am reading "Magus of Java"; it's a fun read. Assuming this phenomena of chi/yang-yin cultivation and projection is real, it's clear this book does a disservice to the entire subject. Either John Chang or Kosta (or both) are spinning tales here.

 

The book is full of clichés, feeling like the beginning of the karate kid. Not that clichés mean it can't be true, however. Though John Chang's master Liao Sifu is basically a god. Even if Kosta's goal wasn't to convince anyone with this book, by taking a subject already extremely controversial and hard to believe, and to then fabricate stories to sell more books undermines the credibility of the entire subject itself (especially considering he was a student of the most believable and skilled practitioner of Neidang/gong, according to feats on camera that we have).

 

I can understand the Chinese myth style of storytelling from natives of Indonesia/China/The East, but this Kosta guy is a western academic and former Engineer -- he should know better. So, either the master himself is lying or its Kosta; in Kosta's case, considering the wise and masterful John allowed Kosta to train under him, which surely involved character/karma judgement to be taken on as a student, it speaks poorly of John as well. As I said, it undermines the validity of the whole subject/industry.

 

On a related note, as I look through these forums its clear that people advocate seeing a teacher; that one cannot learn proper neidan/gong from books alone.

 

First, I will say this seems like a good financial model for teachers.

 

Second, if we go back to the "Magus of Java" book, Mo Pai system, there are 72 mentioned levels. It is made clear the difference between level 0 (the uninitiated) and even level 1 represents a huge disparity. And level 1 to 4 further still. As John Chang, a genius of genetics and skill, was apparently level 4, being at level 72, as also clearly stated, would represent a massive difference in power/skill. Even if the book is heavily exaggerated, I'm sure the difference is still massive between level 0-1, 1-4, and 4-72.

 

If chi/yin-yang is indeed intrinsic to every human (to a greater or lesser extent), it seems to me there should be a lot of people that can achieve level 1, 2, 3 or equivalent spontaneously from simply meditating for many years. For example, level 1-4 is beginner territory relative to level 72; in virtually any subject of human endeavor, one can fairly easily become a beginner (e.g. assuming physics has 72 levels, it would not be really hard to reach level 2 for anyone with a book or DVD, and not requiring in person guidance).

 

Yet the claims are that for some reason despite these forces being available to every human, the process requires such meticulous implementation that one cannot do it without in-person guidance. And yet, despite this, there are several different methods/schools/styles of neidan/gong to get you there besides Mo Pai (suggesting there are overlapping fundamentals).

 

As I see it, there is only one way to truly be in a meditative state: to quiet the inner chatter long enough to enter the void state (the state of no perception). And there can only be so many ways to manipulate the breath/chi (and surely it can be explained ((for the most part)) in a book). And, there are only so many ways one can visualize the flow of chi/yin-yang internally in the body; especially considering everyone will visualize a process slightly differently, this suggests to me that intention is probably the primary mechanism here (the driving force really behind the visualization aspect of the practice).

 

All of this suggests to me that it shouldn't be so damn hard to learn. If the feats of John Chang are real, they should be able to be taught from a book. Otherwise, it seems to me that something is fishy here, and I'm thinking we might just have concepts and stories that are playing to our imaginations as well as offering an evergreen financial niche for the teachers.

 

As I said at the beginning, I have 1.5 days of experience in neidan/gong but not in the greater subject (parapsychological/paranormal phenomena at large). This makes me less attached to it and able to see the flaws, but can also make me ignorant.

 

I would welcome anyone who can refute my rationale here and elucidate me on what I might be missing. I am interested in neidan/gong for health reasons, meaning, and purpose, and would very much like there to be more benefits and feats to it beyond those simply achieved from a disciplined mind and a general meditative practice.

 

 

 

(If you want to reply/discuss, please don't do it here as I wont be entering into a discussion on the main boards. However, feel free to reply in that thread if you want to talk a bit more) 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Shadow_self

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

10 hours ago, NoOne said:

All of this suggests to me that it shouldn't be so damn hard to learn. If the feats of John Chang are real, they should be able to be taught from a book. Otherwise, it seems to me that something is fishy here, and I'm thinking we might just have concepts and stories that are playing to our imaginations as well as offering an evergreen financial niche for the teachers.

Ok, so say you decide to learn from books and you practice incorrectly which results in something that messes up your body or mind. Who do you go to for help after that? Do you message the author of the book (if you can find their personal details) and hope for a response? Do you come here and ask complete strangers who may or may not even have done those specific practices? Do you go to a doctor who will have zero idea of what you did or how to fix it?

 

A teacher is not just for you to learn the correct methods, but to help you when things go wrong. These methods can be dangerous when practiced incorrectly, or even correctly but done for too long in one session. From my personal experience before I found teachers I was trying out all sorts of different meditations and downloading free PDFs of books and practices. Then after doing one exercise from one of Wang Liping’s books the vision in my left eye turned red and stayed like that all night. Lucky it went away in the morning but at least I learned not to fuck around and learn the proper way. There’s a reason it’s been taught this way for thousands of years, why change it because people nowadays are too impatient to wait and too cheap or selfish to pay or support a teacher who has mindblowing knowledge and experience that you can only dream about?

PS: I also started off by reading Magus of Java, just keep an open mind, keep researching and you will eventually find the teachers who are right for you.

 

PPS: I can confirm that the electric qi emission that Pak John does in his videos is 100% real having experienced the treatment myself. Many people on this site have also met someone who can do it, or can even do it themselves.

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Pak_Satrio

[mcoolio]

 

4 hours ago, Barnaby said:

4 hours ago, NoOne said:

I think you could from a video.

 

Nope, no way.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/violinist/comments/nws62k/hi_im_a_selftaught_violinist_i_started_with_the/

https://www.reddit.com/r/violinist/comments/yqhp3n/hello_i_am_self_taught_violinst_2_yrs_playing_i/

 

So these guys seem to have gotten somewhere with only 2-3 years of self study (assuming they did actually study by themselves). That's still beginner level of course but perhaps in 5-10 years time we can find a few self taught violin players with reasonably high level on the internet.

 

Also interesting if you explore that forum, is how almost everybody there seems to be saying how it cannot be done. It's always like this, everybody saying it cannot be done ... Until you have one guy who is crazy and obsessed enough to get really really far. And suddenly you have all sorts of people reaching that level.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, mcoolio said:

 

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/violinist/comments/nws62k/hi_im_a_selftaught_violinist_i_started_with_the/

https://www.reddit.com/r/violinist/comments/yqhp3n/hello_i_am_self_taught_violinst_2_yrs_playing_i/

 

So these guys seem to have gotten somewhere with only 2-3 years of self study (assuming they did actually study by themselves). That's still beginner level of course but perhaps in 5-10 years time we can find a few self taught violin players with reasonably high level on the internet.

 

Also interesting if you explore that forum, is how almost everybody there seems to be saying how it cannot be done. It's always like this, everybody saying it cannot be done ... Until you have one guy who is crazy and obsessed enough to get really really far. And suddenly you have all sorts of people reaching that level.

With all due respect, playing the violin and cultivation are completely different things. You can’t hurt yourself (maybe your ears) playing the violin incorrectly, but you could seriously damage yourself with cultivation. 
 

Let’s not forget how many Mo Pai practitioners developed prostate cancer.

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

PPS: I can confirm that the electric qi emission that Pak John does in his videos is 100% real

 

I feel it is quite important to +1 this. Actually its very important. Reasons why are below

 

12 hours ago, NoOne said:

I can actually believe that it might be possible to cultivate and project chi as we see in his video. For example:

 

• We have the participation/observation effect in quantum mechanics
• We have scientists like Dean Radin that, assuming the studies are completely genuine, have shown beyond a statistical doubt that intention can skew randomness (such as influencing a random number generator)
• The group from metaportal seem to have the Guinness world record for most people to successfully learn telekinesis
• The construction of the pyramids and gobelki tepe, according to the likes of Graham Hancock, could suggest an alternative, lateral science (e.g. telekinesis, bio-energy, etc) from the one we find ourselves in today (modern physics)
• Clandestine US/Russia official Gov groups using telepaths aka remote viewing for information gathering
• Propaganda (false information, information diversion, information suppression) currently working very well to shape general public opinion on any matter despite being in the information age
• Science being subject to corruption the same as anything else is (e.g. as was seen in spades in the past couple years)
• We also probably really know nothing about who we are and what are purpose here is

 

Stuff like this makes one open to the possibility of entertaining that there is more than we currently have been told/understand.

 

 

I'm in academia and have pretty strong experience in human experimentation. The idea of scientists not knowing about this or thinking its fake loses all credibility. This is something deliberate

 

I've been involved in psychological, behavioural, psychophysical  and neurological measurements, and I've conducted experiments that run all 4 at the same time.

 

Im not even going to talk about what I did in my own time to myself! 

 

This is very much real, and more people can do it that one could would care to think. To say a bit more...it actually gets far weirder than this.

 

There is nothing fake, imagined, or made up about it when it is the real deal

 

2 important points  though

 

#1 People will always fake this. Its not hard. But there are signs. The others can elaborate on that if you wish

 

#2 There's a concerted effort via mainstream science, and the  to dismiss all this as woowoo. That's a deliberate lie, and I know this be true having worked with these people. Their philosophical position  doesn't allow for it by default, and that's only the tip of the iceberg sadly

 

You've touched on these points in your post, about your suspicions about science, or rather "scientism" shaping public opinion, and I am deliberately posting this to confirm your suspicions. This absolutely is happening, and there are reasons we could discuss, but are beyond the scope of this thread

 

if you want to figure it out...there are some nice people here who will be more than willing to direct you to someone who can show you first hand

 

I  do sincerely hope this helps you, because im breaking a promise to myself to provide that post (mostly because saying this is more important than my own somewhat distorted, unimportant feelings on participation here.)

[Barnaby]

59 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

This is very much real, and more people can do it that one could would care to think.

 

Really interesting...

 

I have known people – one guy in particular, quite "disturbed" – who would interrupt the normal functioning of electrical equipment. You thought it had gone wrong, they leave, it starts working again. In his case, I always assumed it was non-deliberate, and related to energy fields.

 

59 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I  do sincerely hope this helps you, because im breaking a promise to myself to provide that post 

 

 Fancy breaking it again?    

[Shadow_self]

18 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

Really interesting...

 

I have known people – one guy in particular, quite "disturbed" – who would interrupt the normal functioning of electrical equipment. You thought it had gone wrong, they leave, it starts working again. In his case, I always assumed it was non-deliberate, and related to energy fields.

 

It may very well be the cause

 

I recall a session of a certain practice that made the lights do some rather funny stuff at one point. Had me rather curious.

 

Now I just shrug it off if weird stuff happens .There is  a kind of habituation process where weird starts to become normal. The "awe" soon wears off, even with some of the weirder stuff in my limited experience (It may be different for others)

 

Quote

 Fancy breaking it again?    

If there's something I can provide that might be somewhat helpful to someone, sure.

 

This felt particularly important, given the ongoing descent into materialism and form that the current populous are being led towards, and seem happy to embrace in fact. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Shadow_self

[mcoolio]

1 hour ago, Pak_Satrio said:

With all due respect, playing the violin and cultivation are completely different things. You can’t hurt yourself (maybe your ears) playing the violin incorrectly, but you could seriously damage yourself with cultivation. 
 

Let’s not forget how many Mo Pai practitioners developed prostate cancer.

 

Never heard about that mo pai prostate cancer thing. Is that actually true?  I wanna believe, but I'll need more info

 

That's said, there are many hobbies, skills, occupations with which you can seriously damage yourself, with or without guidance. People do it anyway, sometimes they perform amazing feats and reach high levels of achievement. Sometimes they die ... People die all the time doing all kinds of stuff.

 

 

To me it seems as if the real problem in this subject is the secrecy attached to all of it. Notice how despite all the discussion going on here, there is almost no discussion of actual techniques here. Nobody here, shares the actual methods they got from their school/teacher. Nobody, including myself, dares sharing these methods! This secrecy is deeply rooted in the way how these old traditions - some of which probably still exist today - operate.

 

I can understand how in the past, secrecy used to be a necessity. The big question is, is it still a necessity?

[MetaDao]

10 minutes ago, mcoolio said:

 

Never heard about that mo pai prostate cancer thing. Is that actually true?  I wanna believe, but I'll need more info

 

That's said, there are many hobbies, skills, occupations with which you can seriously damage yourself, with or without guidance. People do it anyway, sometimes they perform amazing feats and reach high levels of achievement. Sometimes they die ... People die all the time doing all kinds of stuff.

 

 

To me it seems as if the real problem in this subject is the secrecy attached to all of it. Notice how despite all the discussion going on here, there is almost no discussion of actual techniques here. Nobody here, shares the actual methods they got from their school/teacher. Nobody, including myself, dares sharing these methods! This secrecy is deeply rooted in the way how these old traditions - some of which probably still exist today - operate.

 

I can understand how in the past, secrecy used to be a necessity. The big question is, is it still a necessity?

That is the question isn’t it?

 

I wonder the same thing all the time. I question why the methods are secretive. It’s my belief that if they are shared in the correct manner, the risks fall on the practitioners, just as people risk their lives doing a whole multitude of other activities.

 

Why should practices aimed at spiritual growth be limited? But, I believe you can’t truly judge whether or not they should be shared until you reach the master level. Something very few achieve. When they achieve it, everyone always comes to the same conclusion on how to pass it on. So maybe there is a reason.

 

With the technology we have now a days though, you could totally record the practices with all relevant theory. I think it’s something that may change in the coming years

Edited December 20, 2022 by MetaDao

[Cobie]

13 minutes ago, mcoolio said:

… secrecy … The big question is, is it still a necessity?

Yes, indubitably so. Otherwise I can no longer sell a ‘secret. It’s all about money. 
 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Cobie

[MetaDao]

14 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Yes, indubitably so. Otherwise, you can no longer sell a ‘secret. It’s all about money. 

I think much of it is about money. That is primarily the case with internal martial arts and lesser arts like Qigong and Neigong.

 

What I wonder: why the secrecy around the most deeply transformative spiritual practices?

 

Is it a case of the world not being quite ready to handle the truth?

 

I can tell you right now based on what I practice: anyone with enough dedication and athletic ability could reach the highest levels. It’s basically a spiritual sport. Albeit, the hardest sport in the world. Yet, if given to more people, if access wasn’t so gated, I believe there would also be far more people with high attainment.

 

I played tennis my whole life and had the talent and capability to go pro. Because of this, I realized there were just as many people just as talented, just as athletic, just as dedicated, just as smart, or even better than me. There is always a higher mountain.

 

Practicing what I practice now, I know for sure, there are thousands and thousands of people, if not hundreds of thousands or millions that have the capability to reach the highest level.

 

You could say it is fate or Ming, but to be honest, that answer might just be bullshit. Because if we put the teachings out for the world to freely see, fate or Ming would be much less of an issue.

 

I can promise you, if I manage to reach the level of Earth Immortal and don’t see glaring reasons to withhold information or the practices, I will reveal them for free. I don’t think my personality will change that much over the years to not be able to fulfill that promise.

Edited December 20, 2022 by MetaDao

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

29 minutes ago, mcoolio said:

I can understand how in the past, secrecy used to be a necessity. The big question is, is it still a necessity?

Yes. Practices can be dangerous if done incorrectly. Simple as that. 

[MetaDao]

11 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Yes. Practices can be dangerous if done incorrectly. Simple as that. 

That’s a bullshit answer though. 
 

It’s like the argument for making all drugs legal vs not making them legal. If people know exactly what the risks are, they should be free to risk their health as they see fit.

 

Think about how recent the internet is. It’s only a matter of time before there’s a revolution in how spiritual practices are spread. It’s already begun

Edited December 20, 2022 by MetaDao

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

6 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

That’s a bullshit answer though. 
 

It’s like the argument for making all drugs legal vs not making them legal. If people know exactly what the risks are, they should be free to risk their health as they see fit.

 

Think about how recent the internet is. It’s only a matter of time before there’s a revolution in how spiritual practices are spread. It’s already begun

Yes and the revolution should be safe for all. Who is going to fix and take care of the people who do damage to themselves?