My Opinion of Something of This Entire Subject As a Newcomer Looking In

[mcoolio]

6 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

36 minutes ago, mcoolio said:

Neigong, qigong, meditation, magick, astrology, feng shui, alchemy, healing arts

 

This kind of stuff.

your pizza is all over the place;)

 

Is it? I would say that these ingredients complement each other pretty nicely.

 

Well done BTW, as always, whenever somebody asks you a serious question, you always manage to divert the conversation to something else.

[freeform]

7 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

38 minutes ago, mcoolio said:

Neigong, qigong, meditation, magick, astrology, feng shui, alchemy, healing arts

 

This kind of stuff.

your pizza is all over the place;)

 

I think @mcoolio is wanting to read some menus and yelp reviews before settling on his choice… I’m sure he’s not expecting all that in one meal

 

[mcoolio]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

I also find secrecy a little stifling… but some of it really is warranted - especially when it comes to ‘experimenting’.

I once got a small part of one practice wrong - and hey presto I started bleeding out of all the orifices in my head  

 

Heart attacks on the cushion are not uncommon.

 

Liver cancer (and various others) are not uncommon.

 

At a certain point you’re creating a mini reactor inside yourself. It’s no joke… not something to play with.

 

It’s all fine saying ‘bla bla bla - we’re not 10yrs old’… but would you be prepared to say that to a grieving mother after a failed daobums ‘experiment’ kills her baby? How would organising this experiment affect your soul journey?

 

A sacrifice for the sake of progress towards a more open spiritual arts community 

 

 

No but, it's like you say. Some of it is certainly warranted. But some of it perhaps not?

 

I think the same holds true for all the daoist metaphysics studies stuff BTW. Astrology, fengshui, qi men, yijing. Yes, you can find many books and stuff, but when it comes to open exchange online, you can just feel that there is some holding back going on. And there you don't have this issue of it being super dangerous to test out things. At some point, these methods do still become powerful of course.

Edited December 21, 2022 by mcoolio

[mcoolio]

5 minutes ago, freeform said:

16 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

47 minutes ago, mcoolio said:

Neigong, qigong, meditation, magick, astrology, feng shui, alchemy, healing arts

 

This kind of stuff.

your pizza is all over the place;)

 

I think @mcoolio is wanting to read some menus and yelp reviews before settling on his choice… I’m sure he’s not expecting all that in one meal

 

If I could get my hands on such a pizza. I would go for it. No matter if I choke or not  

[freeform]

1 minute ago, mcoolio said:

I think the same holds true for all the daoist metaphysics studies stuff BTW. Astrology, fengshui, qi men, yijing. Yes, you can find many books and stuff, but when it comes to open exchange online, you can just feel that there is some holding back going on. And there you don't have this issue of it being super dangerous to test out things. At some point of, these methods do still become powerful of course.

Indeed - when it comes to using will to affect the manifest world - there’s a lot of money at stake!

 

Feng shui masters can charge hundreds of thousands for consultations! People pay it coz they expect to benefit materially in turn.

 

But it’s the same with healing arts too.

 

Tens of thousands for introductions to Faqi masters is not uncommon!

 

Anything to do with affecting the manifest realm for benefit falls into this protectionism mentality.

[Barnaby]

Oh dang, my day without long post resolution goes out the window...

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

It just takes effort… and doing stuff most people simply don’t want to do. It’s really as simple as that.

 

Another thing is this. //

 

In my opinion, people get attached to the mystery because it diverts attention from the fact that these arts are above all practices: i.e. things you actually have to do yourself.

 

"Why aren't I progressing the way I expected? Because I didn't get the true transmission, damn it... "

 

But once you know what to do, you actually teach yourself this stuff. A lot of it is about letting go of your own preconceptions.

 

The practices that I have learned are all pretty simple. That's not to say there aren't more complex ones, I just don't know them. But just by putting in the hours every day, over the years, those simple practices have made a profound difference to my physical, mental and – yeah, why not? – spiritual wellbeing. I'm not boasting in any way, just trying to say that in my experience, a lot of this stuff isn't actually very complicated. You just have to do it. Every day. For more than 10 minutes 

 

The yijing has been mentioned. When I started working with it, all the subtleties of interpretation seemed impossibly complicated. But you just go on, putting the time in, establishing a relationship with it, and everything slowly slots into place.

 

To go back to the musical instrument metaphor, it would be great if there was some amazing magic bullet teaching that could transform you into a virtuoso in a week. Indeed, there are people on the internet peddling that mirage. But it just doesn't work like that. In my opinion, you attain mastery above all by doing the simple stuff over and over and over again.

 

And not many people are really prepared to do that.

 

 

[MetaDao]

35 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

And not many people are really prepared to do that.

More than you think are.

[MetaDao]

So, basically many people on here agree that secrecy is a major issue in the Daoist arts. Maybe for differing reasons. But, I’m glad we have acknowledged the elephant in the room here.

 

The Neidan I practice is pretty simple. You commit the hours. You eat correctly. You steadily improve over a number of years. As a result, your overall health and fate greatly improve.  Finding the practice is almost a harder task than actually practicing. Hence, the problem.

 

I cannot share more information because they forbid you from doing so. Something that I respect because maybe there is actually a good reason for it that my teacher can explain. Or, maybe it’s just the fear that I won’t be able to learn it that holds me back. It would be pointless to say anything more as I haven’t mastered them myself 

[MetaDao]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

You can get all that from freely available material.

Can’t get the elixir from freely available material. Not even close

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, mcoolio said:

Well done BTW, as always, whenever somebody asks you a serious question

of course i owe you a serious answer. I promised that the moment you tell me what do 'these arts' do, i will explain you why there is a secrecy.

1 hour ago, mcoolio said:

Neigong, qigong, meditation, magick, astrology, feng shui, alchemy, healing arts

Now request a master of this to achieve something  real with those - aint gonna happen. The masters of these arts are secretive because they hide the facts of their arts being delusions.  https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/a_magician_never_reveals_his_secrets

what they are going to be open about? smoke and mirrors? a shell game? These arts are just vanity and entertainment.  So there is that. As  to your deciding its time to grow up or not - thats up to you.

[Barnaby]

19 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

More than you think are.

 

If you say so 

[MetaDao]

15 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

If you say so 

To think otherwise is to think you are special. That is the beginning of entitlement.
 

There are millions of people capable of doing your practice the same way you do it with a healthy lifestyle. You aren’t special

[Barnaby]

4 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

You aren’t special

 

Tell me about it 

[Master Logray]

I agree there is a lack of discussion on the actual methods in this forum as @mcoolio says.  There are secrets that we cannot disclose on a forum or even in private message, due to many reasons.   But many of the Qigong, Neigong are not that secretive.   They are open to everybody who buy or borrow a book, or pay a small fee to join a class.   Those Zhan Zhuang, Eight silk brocades, YiJinJing are quite available.   Naturally there are many specific questions to be asked.  But no one is asking. 

[Cobie]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… the end goal and the purpose of my art is immortality. 

 

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

what exactly a concept means can be rationally discussed and specified …

@Taoist Texts What is “immortality” according to you?

[Bluesky]

I had this philosophical debate with my brother, who doesn't believe in anything esoteric. He thinks it's all a sham money making industry, and pointed to teachers making money through teaching as proof. 

"If they really care about serving people and making the world a better place, then why are they charging money???" 

 

One possible reason - because they have bills to pay too! 

I don't go to my acupuncturist expecting free service. She is giving me her time and full attention, and she lives in this world like I do so she has car payments, a mortgage, etc.

 

But then my brother pointed out that there are free services that exist for spiritual growth - for example, the Goenka 10 day Vipassana retreats.

Well, I went on one such retreat and ended up with a qi deviation that took months to fix with the help of a skilled acupuncturist/Qigong practitioner. The teachers at the Vipassana retreat had no clue what I was experiencing, so I turned to someone I had to pay to fix it. The acupuncturist spent many hours working on it.. so why would I expect that for free?

 

And if a total n00b like me could get a qi deviation at the outset of building a meaningful practice, I can't imagine how dangerous these practices get at the higher levels working with real energy. 

 

So much of these arts are about subtle differences that must be felt and discussed.. I could not imagine learning this through books alone. 

 

So if someone is going to spend their time to teach me, check my progress, oversee my growth.. I'm not going to question them for requiring compensation for their time and effort. It's totally fair. Why not? Seems like a silly thing to get hung up on.

 

As to why so much of this is held in secrecy / gate kept.. because the powerful stuff is dangerous if done incorrectly. I wouldn't wish my qi deviation on anyone, and that's just from working with a tiny sliver of yang qi.

 

There are plenty of free meditation / Qi gong available on the internet today. And many retreats that offer free (donation based) services. And for the average householders who doesn't want to commit 4+ hours a day to cultivation, those are more than sufficient.

 

So what's the problem?

Edited December 21, 2022 by Bluesky

[Wilhelm]

47 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

So, basically many people on here agree that secrecy is a major issue in the Daoist arts. Maybe for differing reasons. But, I’m glad we have acknowledged the elephant in the room here.

 

The Neidan I practice is pretty simple. You commit the hours. You eat correctly. You steadily improve over a number of years. As a result, your overall health and fate greatly improve.  Finding the practice is almost a harder task than actually practicing. Hence, the problem.

 

I cannot share more information because they forbid you from doing so. Something that I respect because maybe there is actually a good reason for it that my teacher can explain. Or, maybe it’s just the fear that I won’t be able to learn it that holds me back. It would be pointless to say anything more as I haven’t mastered them myself 

???

 

Secrecy in the arts is this big a deal for you, but you haven't asked your teacher why he prefers it that way? 

 

Just last week you were saying you thought questions should go by your teacher first.  What gives?

[MetaDao]

10 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

???

 

Secrecy in the arts is this big a deal for you, but you haven't asked your teacher why he prefers it that way? 

 

Just last week you were saying you thought questions should go by your teacher first.  What gives?

Because I like to have my own opinions. I’ve heard his answer before and didn’t find it satisfactory.

Just by disagreeing with Damo, I was kicked out of his academy. I don’t want to get kicked out and give up my chance of giving these arts to more.

 

He said, it’s like handing “nuclear codes to children.” And that those with the fate for the arts will find them naturally. Neidan is for the elite. Something I would label as bullshit in my mind.
 

I can see the whole danger argument, but I do not fully agree. Under the direct supervision of a teacher, the danger is negligible or much reduced. I believe there are ways that will come about to keep the practices safe and widespread. Simply put, I respectfully disagree but do not want to start conflict. And I believe it is the same for many in the scene. 
 

I do not care if he looks on this forum and connects the dots seeing that it is me. If he decides to kick me out for simply sharing information and opinion, I’ll just go live a normal life and be unburdened.

I’ve also already found other teachers just in case that I could go visit. You see, fear is a large part of maintaining secrecy. Damo’s community is dictatorship where he is free to revoke access to anyone he sees fit. I can freely call him on his bullshit here. But in his community, he has all the power.

Edited December 21, 2022 by MetaDao

[Wilhelm]

9 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

Because I like to have my own opinions. I’ve heard his answer before and didn’t find it satisfactory.

 

Well I appreciate that you're being consistent in your approach.

 

I was worried that you were demanding transparency from others but not your own teacher, but it looks like you tried to ask him and chose not to push further so you could avoid what happened with Damo (I remember some of your interactions with him btw.  I don't remember them way you do but appreciate that you might view them differently than me). 

 

9 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I can see the whole danger argument, but I do not fully agree. Under the direct supervision of a teacher, the danger is negligible or much reduced. I believe there are ways that will come about to keep the practices safe and widespread. Simply put, I respectfully disagree but do not want to start conflict. And I believe it is the same for many in the scene. 

I think that's a fair opinion.  I've heard of both advanced students and teachers causing themselves serious injury or death, so I might disagree on that level but maybe it's dependent on which methods are shared (I would disagree that all methods are safe even if a teacher is supervising).

9 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I can freely call him on his bullshit

Fair enough.  But can you appreciate why this attitude might be distasteful to even a well-meaning teacher?

[MetaDao]

1 minute ago, Wilhelm said:

But can you appreciate why this attitude might be distasteful to even a well-meaning teacher?

Sure. Doesn’t mean it’s not bullshit. I’d love for others to call me on my bullshit.
 

Would I be slightly angry at them? For a bit. But, it would make me reconsider a great deal of things, and I would actually admire them for it.

 

I am simply being myself and if that’s not good enough, so be it 🤷‍♂️

[MetaDao]

20 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

(I remember some of your interactions with him btw.  I don't remember them way you do but appreciate that you might view them differently than me). 

I greatly admire and respect Damo and thought we had many great interactions in his community, but I slowly grew to realize that he’s just a man. A flawed man just like the rest of us. With a passion for helping spread authentic teachings. 

 

And, if I were a renowned teacher, I would personally love others to call me on my bullshit, so don’t view it as some sort of spiteful revenge but as a form of respect. He is a in a position where he actually has power over the internal arts world, yet he is not doing enough. I am challenging him to do more and see the flaws of the system.

 

My teacher, he would tell me to just keep practicing and eventually I will come to my own truth and understanding on why the arts are not spread freely like I suggest. This is why I keep practicing. 
 

All the answers I’ve received regarding secrecy have been unsatisfactory, so I’m simply conveying my current views which will most certainly probably change as I progress. I’m sure many have similar views. If not, that’s fine  

 

I will be quiet now and let others discuss

Edited December 21, 2022 by MetaDao

[anshino23]

It’s funny how your experience differs completely with mine in terms of Damo. 
 

As long as one is being respectful and kind I’ve seen all questions being answered and everything not answered he says it’s more for an in-person thing which I completely respect. 
 

As for your current teacher I funnily found the opposite the case. It was just a “trust me.” with no real explanations and — as I understood it — none of the real developmental stages were similar to what I’ve confirmed with other high-level practitioners that learn from authentic neidan lineages so I quickly lost faith — lots of lofty claims was part of it. 
 

As I know and practiced with the teacher I know first-hand and not just speaking on belief. So it’s interesting to see the difference in your experience. 
 

Wish you the best in your practice however.  

[Wilhelm]

37 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I am simply being myself and if that’s not good enough, so be it 🤷‍♂️

Now we may have attended different lectures but I was under the impression that the central idea in cultivation is that being yourself isn't good enough.

31 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

And, if I were a renowned teacher, I would personally love others to call me on my bullshit

And whose word would you take more seriously - those of your trusted advisors and friends, or a hot-headed young man with no background in cultivation?  (Meaning no disrespect, that applies to me as well)

31 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

My teacher, he would tell me to just keep practicing and eventually I will come to my own truth and understanding on why the arts are not spread freely like I suggest. This is why I keep practicing. 

 

All the answers I’ve received regarding secrecy have been unsatisfactory, so I’m simply conveying my current views which will most certainly probably change as I progress. I’m sure many have similar views. If not, that’s fine 

FWIW if somebody told me 'youll know when you're older/more developed' that'd probably get my goat as well! 

 

I hope we can all look back on this as the silly whims of our lesser selves in a few years.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

2 hours ago, MetaDao said:

I cannot share more information because they forbid you from doing so. Something that I respect because maybe there is actually a good reason for it that my teacher can explain. Or, maybe it’s just the fear that I won’t be able to learn it that holds me back. It would be pointless to say anything more as I haven’t mastered them myself 

Hang on, I thought secrets were bad? Why should everyone else be expected to give away all their secrets for free but you and your master can keep yours?

[DynamicEquilibrium]

38 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I greatly admire and respect Damo and thought we had many great interactions in his community, but I slowly grew to realize that he’s just a man. A flawed man just like the rest of us. With a passion for helping spread authentic teachings. 

 

And, if I were a renowned teacher, I would personally love others to call me on my bullshit, so don’t view it as some sort of spiteful revenge but as a form of respect. He is a in a position where he actually has power over the internal arts world, yet he is not doing enough. I am challenging him to do more and see the flaws of the system.

 

My teacher, he would tell me to just keep practicing and eventually I will come to my own truth and understanding on why the arts are not spread freely like I suggest. This is why I keep practicing. 
 

All the answers I’ve received regarding secrecy have been unsatisfactory, so I’m simply conveying my current views which will most certainly probably change as I progress. I’m sure many have similar views. If not, that’s fine  

 

I will be quiet now and let others discuss

 

Thousand Li horse wouldn't stop on its way to talk with chickens and dogs, neither would it care about what they are doing or not. 

Horse has horse goals, chicken has chicken's goals and dog has dog's goals.

 

As a fish, it would be foolish to tell a bird that its ways of living are wrong and that it must live underwater, so as a monkey you can't ask a cow to climb trees. 

 

No matter fish, horse, or dog, 

live by your own nature's ways and let live others by theirs, respect and cherish human "biodiversity", but yes, everyday mouses are forcing turtles to live by the mouses way. 

 

Self-knowlege and proper ways of living by own nature isn't about mystico-gelatinous "neidan" concepts, its more about learning how to survive in this increasingly hostile, unhealthy and dangerous jungle called the world.