My Opinion of Something of This Entire Subject As a Newcomer Looking In

[Barnaby]

11 hours ago, NoOne said:

If the teacher seems to be skewed towards profit-driven marketer more so or equal to that of teacher, then I would be very cautious.

 

And in my experience, you'd be very right.

[Barnaby]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

I’d say that if a teacher spends more time trying to attract new students than on the students they already have - that’s certainly a red flag.

 

What about when the teacher apparently spends all their time trying to attract new students? 

 

This is a great discussion, it feels like we're really getting down to bedrock...

 

6 hours ago, freeform said:

The money thing, in China and with the Chinese diaspora especially, is harder to discern.

 

So, could we posit that a Western spiritual teacher necessarily exists within a specific cultural context? A context which intuits that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven...

 

And that this different way of seeing things that you allude to is something that it would be very difficult – on a really deep formative level – for a Westerner to ever truly understand? And that it could therefore never sincerely apply to a Western "spiritual teacher"?  

[Barnaby]

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

I think the discussions has been mixing up 2 types of teachers.  One type is traditional.  Students need to attend a ceremony, kneel or fall down in front of the master to be accepted as a student.   There is deep and long term relationship.  Fees and ways of payment vary greatly.  It is natural for students take into account the master's private conduct or aspirations.  Freeform and shadow_self talked about this type.

 

While the 2nd type is merely offering a course for a fixed amount.   It includes most Qigong and Neigong courses and all online teachings.  These teachers are no different from millions of any other courses.  A student should concern himself with how the transaction is conducted according to legal and proper business norms.   The personal side of the teacher is generally none of the students' concern.   Damo clearly belongs to this type.   If he is teaching in a park, would a prospective student approach him and asks  how he is spending his money? donating to any orphanage lately ?

 

Interesting post, couple of points...

 

It's not only about the teachers. It's also about the students. For the first model you mention to work, the students need to be culturally capable of adhering to it.

 

And in the second model, if the student is purchasing something from someone who presents themselves as an expert in spiritual matters, it strikes me as completely natural for the student to take that teacher's ethical conduct into account. 

[freeform]

7 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

So, could we posit that a Western spiritual teacher necessarily exists within a specific cultural context? A context which intuits that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven...

Yeah - remember that in the East, there’s rarely that feeling of unfairness or lack of virtue when someone is wealthy - whether by individual effort or by inheritance… it’s considered that their actions in previous lives have brought this fortune to them. So in a way wealth is actually a sign of virtue - (if only from a previous incarnation.)
 

This is as deeply (and subconsciously) ingrained as the ‘camel through the eye of a needle’ thing is for westerners.

 

Quote

And that this different way of seeing things that you allude to is something that it would be very difficult – on a really deep formative level – for a Westerner to ever truly understand? And that it could therefore never sincerely apply to a Western "spiritual teacher"?

Yeah - unless the person is able to drop this karmic pattern - rare but possible.

[freeform]

20 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

What about when the teacher apparently spends all their time trying to attract new students? 

To me - that’s a good a sign as any that you should avoid this teacher 😅

 

Get what is useful - then get the hell out 😬

[Master Logray]

39 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

What about when the teacher apparently spends all their time trying to attract new students? 

 

There is a movie called Ip Man, which is about a big Wing Chun Boxing master, played by Donnie Yen.  Ip Man was the teacher of Bruce Lee.   In that movie, Ip Man rented a roof to be his boxing gym.  In that period, he apparently spent all his time worrying about new students.  If a teacher is more established in his "business", I think he would not be so eager for new students, or even start to be being choosy.   

 

 

29 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

It's not only about the teachers. It's also about the students. For the first model you mention to work, the students need to be culturally capable of adhering to it.

 

And in the second model, if the student is purchasing something from someone who presents themselves as an expert in spiritual matters, it strikes me as completely natural for the student to take that teacher's ethical conduct into account. 

 

Yes, the students need to be able to follow the culture of that place or that school.  Otherwise he may not be imparted with more important skills.   Students are not treated equally. 

 

I don't consider Neigong or Qigong spiritual.  It is a general viewpoint they are skills only.  Anyone can teach these, atheists, scientists, down to earth people....    Neigong is especially non-spiritual.  It is an adjunct of external martial arts (Internal Kung Fu). 

 

Ethical conduct - of course it is important.   Teachers could be too eager to teach young ladies, borrow money from students,  associated with mafia, selling insurance, asking for personal favours.....  not only having keen interest in money is a problem.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[freeform]

13 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

I don't consider Neigong or Qigong spiritual.  It is a general viewpoint they are skills only.  Anyone can teach these, atheists, scientists, down to earth people....    Neigong is especially non-spiritual.  It is an adjunct of external martial arts (Internal Kung Fu). 

There’s Neigong for martial arts and there’s Neigong for internal development - very different.

 

But I agree they’re not necessarily spiritual. They can be leading to spiritual practices - but not spiritual in themselves. And it depends on the teacher - most of what you see is just for health and exercise with friends in the park.

[MetaDao]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

But I agree they’re not necessarily spiritual. They can be leading to spiritual practices - but not spiritual in themselves. And it depends on the teacher - most of what you see is just for health and exercise with friends in the park.

Quite right. Which is why these are even more dangerous to teach the public as they don’t contain the personal growth of the spiritual traditions.
 

Interesting how we have set up these online businesses centered around Neigong

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

There’s Neigong for martial arts and there’s Neigong for internal development - very different.

 

But I agree they’re not necessarily spiritual. They can be leading to spiritual practices - but not spiritual in themselves. And it depends on the teacher - most of what you see is just for health and exercise with friends in the park.

 

The term Neigong was only coined not very long time ago.  Agree things can be used for different purposes, like health, internal development, spiritual...  which eventually obscure their original purpose. 

 

Many people in the west just want to apply their spirituality world view on Taoism.  It doesn't work because this aspect is handled very differently.

 

You see if I tell people I am spiritual, the most common reactions would be,

- you are a relentless Christian

- you are from a cult

- you should be locked up in psychiatric facilities

 

Neidan, if think carefully, is anti-spiritual.  It is a system to prolong life indefinitely, thereby delaying the coming of the spiritual world for the person.  In practical terms, most of the Neidanists are older people.  They are fast becoming spirit themselves, so why the fuss to explore spirituality.

 

And Neidan don't represent Taoism.  Half of the Taoists are ZhengYi.  They deal with actual spirits everyday in communication, divination, exorcists, offerings.  When they are practically roaming the spirits world, spirituality looks pale by comparison.

 

I think those interested in spirituality should go for Buddhism.  It is a richer soil for development.

 

 

 

[awaken]

The true alchemy of Taoism, surrounded by superficial qi-sensing cultivation and transportation methods and the upright school of fake ghosts and gods, is almost disappearing.

 

But don't think that the situation of Buddhism is better. Like Taoist alchemy, Buddhism is almost disappearing. The most basic of the four dhyanas is hardly anyone who can fully understand them.

 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

On 12/21/2022 at 2:33 AM, freeform said:

 

For example - if you’re a young man and you don’t get out of your comfort zone enough to be of service to something other than yourself, you have no chance of  generating Yang Qi to any great extent… oops there goes one secret. But of course it’s a distasteful secret that won’t even make it past most people’s filters.

 

 

The inner processes of Taoist alchemy may be secret but I don't mind.  I'm still working on honesty, kindness,  and the basics of a healthy lifestyle.  I'm still working on developing the emotional maturity required to do important things like feel good about myself regardless of how many "likes" my posts get, and letting other people have the last word in an internet argument.  First things first.  After I get these prerequisites sorted, I'll train the ability to zap people with laser-like bursts of healing qi.  I trust that the universe wants me to develop spiritually. I'm where I need to be.  Even now teachers are standing by, eager to teach me when the time is right and willing to wait for the moment.

Edited December 24, 2022 by liminal_luke

[Barnaby]

7 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

The inner processes of Taoist alchemy may be secret but I don't mind.  I'm still working on honesty, kindness,  and the basics of a healthy lifestyle.  I'm still working on developing the emotional maturity required to do important things like feel good about myself regardless of how many "likes" my posts get, and letting other people have the last word in an internet argument.  First things first.  After I get these prerequisites sorted, I'll train the ability to zap people with laser-like bursts of healing qi.  I trust that the universe wants me to develop spiritually. I'm where I need to be.  Even now teachers are standing by, eager to teach me when the time is right and willing to wait for the moment.

 

Sounds to me like you already got your spiritual practice together 

[MetaDao]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

inheritance… it’s considered that their actions in previous lives have brought this fortune to them. So in a way wealth is actually a sign of virtue - (if only from a previous incarnation.)

There is truth to this.

 

But, as westerners, I think we must also recognize the bullshit to it as well. The ‘rich’ and the ‘poor’ exist only because of our current societal systems.

 

Say, for example, in 10,000 years, society changed to such an extent that capitalism was extinguished and there was universal basic income. Say, the rich had net worth caps and the poor always had enough to sustain themselves in a way that would support spiritual practice. 
 

Such a notion that wealth is a form of virtue and a sign that people were elite enough to be worthy of spiritual practice would likewise be extinguished.

 

Karma and virtue exist, sure. But these laws must flow through the systems of reality that we as humans create with free-will.
 

Teachers decide what to charge and decide what their reasons are for charging.  Based on what you’ve said, you can only truly tell authenticity with great discernment and wisdom.

 

I recognize both the truth and bullshit behind the motivations of teachers. 
 

Most of the time, teachers gate practices with money maybe because of their past experiences with their own teachers. Who knows 🤷‍♂️

 

All I know is that elitism in Neidan is kind of bullshit. There is some truth to it. But, it is also bullshit as well  

Edited December 24, 2022 by MetaDao

[freeform]

13 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

The ‘rich’ and the ‘poor’ exist only because of our current societal systems.

I don’t believe that’s true… there’s degrees of equality - but never absolute equality… our experiments with making that happen that have been pretty catastrophic.

 

Pol Pot was also an enthusiastic idealist like you who disliked elitism…

 

[MetaDao]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

I don’t believe that’s true… there’s degrees of equality - but never absolute equality… our experiments with making that happen that have been pretty catastrophic.

 

Pol Pot was also an enthusiastic idealist like you who disliked elitism…

 

Well, I too, don’t believe true equality is possible or that it is a good thing. 
 

I simply think that the elites and non-elites are just as entitled to spiritual growth  

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I simply think that the elites and non-elites are just as entitled to spiritual growth  

That’s fair - and I think they have equal access… yes you might not be able to afford to train with a certain teacher - but there’s certainly another one that you could afford.

 

Plenty of donation-based teachers around. You can read any book you want for free at a local library…

 

We have it pretty good!

[MetaDao]

5 minutes ago, freeform said:

That’s fair - and I think they have equal access… yes you might not be able to afford to train with a certain teacher - but there’s certainly another one that you could afford.

 

Plenty of donation-based teachers around. You can read any book you want for free at a local library…

 

We have it pretty good!

Pretty good yes! But, there is room for improvement.

 

My point is that I would rather teach an extremely poor person than a rich politician like Donald Trump. 
 

Are we to believe that Donald Trump is more entitled to spiritual growth than the poor people across the world with much greater virtue in this lifetime?

 

This is unnecessary elitism that is also nonfunctional.

Edited December 24, 2022 by MetaDao

[freeform]

1 minute ago, MetaDao said:

My point is that I would rather teach an extremely poor person than a rich politician like Donald Trump. 

That’s great!

 

But how would you force another teacher to do the same?

[MetaDao]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

That’s great!

 

But how would you force another teacher to do the same?

I wouldn’t as they have free will.

 

However, I’d work to persuade them that their current solution might be flawed. 
 

Competitive advantage is also a good persuasive technique. Why pay for something that elites are paying for when you can get it for free?

 

For example, I’ve often thought of buying a subscription to the IAA, ripping all the videos, and releasing them on google drive for people to use freely. Maybe not the best decision karmically, but hey, maybe it benefits people 🤷‍♂️

Edited December 24, 2022 by MetaDao

[freeform]

9 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

For example, I’ve often thought of buying a subscription to the IAA, ripping all the videos, and releasing them on google drive for people to use freely. Maybe not the best decision karmically, but hey, maybe it benefits people 🤷‍♂️

While I think teaching your own stuff for free is admirable, doing what you say above would be deplorable… as well as illegal (rightfully so).

 

I was thinking maybe Damo was a bit rash to kick you out - but his decision seem pretty wise right now!

Edited December 24, 2022 by freeform

[Wilhelm]

26 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

For example, I’ve often thought of buying a subscription to the IAA, ripping all the videos, and releasing them on google drive for people to use freely. Maybe not the best decision karmically, but hey, maybe it benefits people 🤷‍♂️

I'm glad it didn't get to that point!

 

I think you're a clever and well-intentioned guy, and I hope you find creative and ethical ways to actualize your vision - so that the execution of your vision doesn't impair your cultivation!

Edited December 24, 2022 by Wilhelm

[Barnaby]

3 hours ago, Master Logray said:

There is a movie called Ip Man, which is about a big Wing Chun Boxing master, played by Donnie Yen.  Ip Man was the teacher of Bruce Lee.   In that movie, Ip Man rented a roof to be his boxing gym.  In that period, he apparently spent all his time worrying about new students.  If a teacher is more established in his "business", I think he would not be so eager for new students, or even start to be being choosy.   

 

Ah, Ip Man... My original Shaolin teacher trained with him. There used to be a photo of the two of them together, up on the practice room wall.

 

I don't think the person I was alluding to is in the same league as Ip Man. But they're very well-established, with lots of high-paying students, so I'm not sure that your example holds... 

 

3 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Ethical conduct - of course it is important.   Teachers could be too eager to teach young ladies, borrow money from students,  associated with mafia, selling insurance, asking for personal favours.....  not only having keen interest in money is a problem.

 

You're absolutely right. But so far in this thread, we've mainly been talking about the money thing.

 

And it would be important even if we were just talking about people who are selling themselves as boxing teachers. But we're talking about people who are selling themselves as spiritual teachers. I think that makes it even more important.

 

To sum up what I've got out of this thread so far...

 

There's a spiritual aspiration – felt more keenly by some than others – that is just something to do with being a manifested being in this universe.

 

For people in the West, the indigenous cultural traditions for expressing that spiritual aspiration are almost completely discredited.

 

So they end up trying to express the aspiration via spiritual traditions that come from outside their cultural context. Whose inherent cultural logic they will perhaps never completely understand. And at a time when commercialization and instant gratification have run rife.

 

I think that creates a lot of friction. I think it creates huge potential for misunderstanding. And huge potential for scams of all kinds.

 

I hope there is stuff that could go right in all that.

 

But it strikes me that there is a lot of stuff that could potentially go wrong.

 

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

Many people in the west just want to apply their spirituality world view on Taoism.  It doesn't work because this aspect is handled very differently.

 

So this ^^^to me makes perfect sense.

 

1 hour ago, Master Logray said:

I think those interested in spirituality should go for Buddhism.  It is a richer soil for development.

 

Thanks for the suggestion 

 

It really resonates with me right now.

[MetaDao]

32 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I'm glad it didn't get to that point!

 

I think you're a clever and well-intentioned guy, and I hope you find creative and ethical ways to actualize your vision - so that the execution of your vision doesn't impair your cultivation!

Eh! I still might just rip them and put them somewhere.

 

It would be easy enough.

[Wilhelm]

1 minute ago, MetaDao said:

Eh! I still might just rip them and put them somewhere.

 

It would be easy enough.

Mindpath 2.0?

[MetaDao]

24 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Mindpath 2.0?

Lmao! I’m just saying, think about it. Who does it hurt? 
 

Only thing it hurts is the profit margin of Damo and whoever he is paying. People would still have to pay him for workshops and in person training.

 

Could even use A.I to replace him with an animated avatar and do voice overs. 
 

Place all the recorded videos he’s posted on a video streaming service on the blockchain where they can’t be taken down. YouTube alternative. Pretty simple.  
 
Anyone with the link could access all the public teachings for free. 

 

Competitive advantage.

He has used the competitive advantage principle as an inherent marketing tactic. Oh I’m so selfless! I’m giving you these arts I had to pay a shit ton for for a cheaper price than anyone is offering. Competitive advantage marketing tactics.
 

Wouldn’t harm my practice at all 🤷‍♂️

Edited December 24, 2022 by MetaDao