My Opinion of Something of This Entire Subject As a Newcomer Looking In

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, MetaDao said:

Sure, maybe I am those things. But only in certain situations. And, I work on myself day in and day out, so does it even matter? 

I think it matters for us outer door students insofar as I know Damo could find 100 guys who work as hard as I do, so I try to suppress my impulse to be a little shit (though it still gets out sometimes) less I give him a reason to put me in the corner lol

Quote

Let me say this. You have much more tact and skill with your words than Damo, so I think you will easily eclipse him in terms of skill if you put in effort. 

 

Damo wouldn’t apologize, backtrack on his words, or admit he may be wrong  Not that I’ve experienced. 

 

 I tried to meet with him over zoom to discuss how I might go about changing these qualities he’d seen in me and why I came across that way and he denied all attempts at communication. 

Who do you think I learned it from?  As much as anything I think the difference is that I've got time to talk to you at length about this sort of stuff - but I can count on my left hand the number of people I talk to about the arts.  It's next to impossible trying to manage the amount of people that are in the IAA - so I think putting up basic personality filters is a fair thing to do.

14 minutes ago, MetaDao said:

I would say this is more a false character test done by fraudsters.

 

True masters don’t need to charge. It is more of an energy exchange. Yin and Yang. Giving and receiving.

 

I think I said this before. If you wanted to test how attached someone was to money, you could have them throw all their possessions away or burn the money that they give you. If the money is going to the teacher as a form of test, that is fraud. Simply deems you as a fool and a sucker. If any of you encounter such a test, the correct solution is to hand the money to someone who looks like they need it.

 

When they ask why you did that, you explain, they looked like they needed it more than you 🤷‍♂️

 

If they still deny you, they are frauds. Move on

Now I'm glad we've come around full circle to the OP!  It seems the same skepticism he brought forth initially is reflected in this post.  I should say for the benefit of those reading that I believe all three of us (me, you and the OP) have yet to travel to the source of the arts to examine whether these ideas are true (do true masters charge, do they require character tests, etc.).  For now I'm taking for granted the word of those who've been there, but there's no substitute for checking it out yourself.

 

I also think its easy to assume our own cultural norms and values would apply there as well (people 'deserve' the truth, and access to information being a human right) but I wouldn't be surprised to find the Eastern Arts live within a very different culture than the Western world...

[Shadow_self]

42 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

@NoOne still interested in internal arts now? 😂😂😂

 

There's a very sad Irony, but its on topic, and relevant to the OP so ill state this

 

It seems certain people genuinely cannot tell the difference between those who are trying to help them and those who wish to take advantage of them.

 

It is simply lost on them, even when its smacking them straight in the face

 

There's more than a few people biting their tongue in this thread, to remain courteous, civil and so forth. They know who they are, and they know what I am talking about (But lets not get specific)

 

Character tests come in many forms, and aren't always initiated by a person

 

Ming and Destiny play a part. So does intelligence

 

Consider this. As a result of practice

 

• There's people urinating backwards and wetting themselves.
• There's people that are dead.
• There's people who have made themselves seriously ill
• There's people who have been conned out of thousands and thousands, and more importantly their time
• There's also people standing waving their hands in all manner of direction getting absolutely nowhere and doing absolutely nothing except imaginary swimming their way to delusion.

 

There's almost a sliding scale of harm here

 

The key factors here are

 

#1 Have you got the discernment to see the problem

#2 Can you let go of your ego and admit your mistake

#3 Are you willing to learn from it

#4 Can you use your newfound knowledge to put you right

 

You can generally tell when a person has either ticked these boxes or not.

 

Fortunately, we also live in a time, where there are some genuine people, who want to help others. But navigating that minefield can be tricky if those boxes arent ticked

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Shadow_self

[Barnaby]

2 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

I also think its easy to assume our own cultural norms and values would apply there as well (people 'deserve' the truth, and access to information being a human right) but I wouldn't be surprised to find the Eastern Arts live within a very different culture than the Western world...

 

This is such an important point for the matter in hand. Because when we talk about these arts, we're talking about cultural transplants. And when you transplant something outside its native culture, it can give rise to awkwardness and misunderstanding.

 

It feels to me that much of the friction we're observing is caused by the very Chineseness of this stuff: the cult of secrecy, the use of flowery poetic language to mask simple things, the Confucian family model, the deference to the master figure. There have been threads on here before talking about this. About how in the East there would be no questioning of a master's authority, no expectation of a more egalitarian teacher/student relationship. And secrecy has always been a great justification for authority.

 

When you transfer a model like that to a culture with such different expectations, it strikes me that it's going to cause problems. Now I have no experience of Damo and his organisation, and it looks from the outside that he does encourage a more down-to-earth, egalitarian atmosphere. But I know of another Western teacher who's the very opposite of a silk-pyjama guy, but who still expects his senior students to do everything for him. You see them scurrying about at retreats with scared looks on their faces, because someone forgot to lay out some titbit on the top table.

 

I have a friend who became a Tibetan monk. He wanted to go on a long retreat, and wrote to everyone he knew asking for money, saying that if they helped to finance him, they would receive blessings. That kind of approach might work in its native culture, but in the late 20th century UK they just came over as begging letters.

 

I've heard it said that the hippie image of Tai Chi Chuan in the West is the result of another cultural misunderstanding, and the beatnik clientele that Cheng Man Ching attracted when he first arrived in the States.

 

So I suppose I'm saying that when you transplant arts across cultures – especially "spiritual" ones – there are going to be misunderstandings.

 

And @MetaDao: that if your Western post-Enlightenment scepticism doesn't rest easy with the inherent Orientalism of this stuff, maybe you'd be better off side-stepping the whole thing?

 

I am absolutely not trying to provoke you in saying that. It's a question I sometimes ask myself. 

 

 

[NoOne]

10 hours ago, MetaDao said:

So, basically many people on here agree that secrecy is a major issue in the Daoist arts. Maybe for differing reasons. But, I’m glad we have acknowledged the elephant in the room here.

 

The Neidan I practice is pretty simple. You commit the hours. You eat correctly. You steadily improve over a number of years. As a result, your overall health and fate greatly improve.  Finding the practice is almost a harder task than actually practicing. Hence, the problem.

 

I cannot share more information because they forbid you from doing so. Something that I respect because maybe there is actually a good reason for it that my teacher can explain. Or, maybe it’s just the fear that I won’t be able to learn it that holds me back. It would be pointless to say anything more as I haven’t mastered them myself 

 

Is it not that being a master of Daoist arts is supposed to be associated with wisdom and some degree of altruism as a result of spiritual growth?

 

When the world is falling to pieces by corruption and bad actors, wouldn't spreading the word about practices that encourage the growth of the spirit actually help humanity? This is one of the best times in history for such a cause.

 

People are mentioning money. I think it's fine to accept money to teach. The problem is when the teacher becomes equal parts marketer and teacher, that's when it starts to stink.

 

Any person of sufficient "spiritual quality" (or one who is wise) will realize that chasing money isn't something to be associated with happiness or real value. As such, when a teacher acts in this way, it immediately undermines his credibility. Unless, of course, from what I read in "Magus of Java" (a book that loses more credibility as I turn each page) is true, that the techniques of Neidan/gong/kung work whether you're a good person or not; that it has nothing to do with the morals/ethics of the individual.

 

I think on the public, ground level this industry is flooded with charlatans/cons. And even of the more skilled teachers, often it seems their "spiritual principles" start to crumble under the weight of their materialistic ones (i.e. greed/mammon). For those that are this type of greedy marketer, unless they are raising all this money directly to set up some kind of charity, I would not follow them, and I cannot believe they are operating on a "higher spiritual level" (again unless proper implementation of the techniques are all that matter, whether the practitioner is morally good or not).

 

Within closed (real) temples, what keeps the true masters from spreading it? Ethnic pride, old doctrines, ego? Or perhaps it's all embellished; with the beneficial effects and feats amounting to the same (which I'm sure can be quite substantial, but the same nonetheless) as other similar but publicly, readily available forms (e.g. YouTube Qi gong) of these disciplines. Perhaps it's all hokum, and they are nothing but a kind of glorified monk/spiritualist clinging to the dying arts from a forgotten era where this stuff was more relevant and believable. Or perhaps it is real, too dangerous, and money means nothing to them. 

 

My list from the OP was to show that we have not defined the limits of what is possible, and mainstream science certainly doesn't have the final say on this. So, I am open to this phenomena. But it seems like if I don't learn some Mandarin and go on a goose hunt through parts of Asia or fork over thousands of dollar for a teacher, I have little chance of getting anywhere from books or anything else (even if they're from those very same teachers). 

 

 

On 12/20/2022 at 2:48 PM, MetaDao said:

That’s a bullshit answer though. 
 

It’s like the argument for making all drugs legal vs not making them legal. If people know exactly what the risks are, they should be free to risk their health as they see fit.

 

Think about how recent the internet is. It’s only a matter of time before there’s a revolution in how spiritual practices are spread. It’s already begun

 

While technology makes the spreading of information more readily available and in different formats, the problem is that control of these technologies are concentrated in the hands of a few. And that technology is to be used against the betterment of mankind.

[awaken]

6 hours ago, MetaDao said:

I would say this is more a false character test done by fraudsters.

 

True masters don’t need to charge. It is more of an energy exchange. Yin and Yang. Giving and receiving.

 

I think I said this before. If you wanted to test how attached someone was to money, you could have them throw all their possessions away or burn the money that they give you. If the money is going to the teacher as a form of test, that is fraud. Simply deems you as a fool and a sucker. If any of you encounter such a test, the correct solution is to hand the money to someone who looks like they need it.

 

When they ask why you did that, you explain, they looked like they needed it more than you 🤷‍♂️

 

If they still deny you, they are frauds. Move on

 

 

I totally agree with what you said, your statement makes these fake masters have nowhere to hide

 

 

I hope you will not be misled by the words of these false masters, believe in your sincerity, you can go farther than these false masters

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by awaken

[Master Logray]

8 hours ago, MetaDao said:

Ah but both of those things already happen with the current system. People just profit off it. 
 

You could make all TCM and medical Qigong techniques free about 30 years before making all the other techniques free and open to the public, thus ensuring safety above all else.

 

 

I think you are not aware of many things - not secret teachings but normal things in reality, that makes you clashes with many people.  Do you know China have 22 Chinese Medicine Universities that offer English curriculum.  Three Hong Kong universities have School of Chinese Medicine.  These doctors are fully licensed practitioners.  China's Chinese medicine doctors programmes is a double degree.  The graduates also got a western medicine doctor license.  Of course these are not free.  But is it good enough? open enough?

 

Neidan education does come in free in bit and pieces here and there.  But the problem is not free or not.  It is because there is no pure Neidan education by itself.   Qigong/Neigong/Inner martial arts are though plentiful or often pretend to be Neidan, or only offer it in the very "senior" stages. 

 

Historically Neidan are disseminated in an apprentice mode than class mode.  It affects its secrecy (among many other factors) and charging mechanism. 

 

There is a saying the "free things" are the most expensive in the end.  Even in the old days, some teachers offer free teaching to students with great potential, or even pay for their livelihood.   But do modern young man like yourself wants to have another father, which you are obligated to take care of him until his death?   do you want to pay regularly without receiving useful teaching for years?  do you want to live with him under one roof for many many years?   do you want to take care of all the household chores?   do you want to limit your life circle to only a few fellow disciples?  It sounds a bit like slavery nowadays.

 

Star Wars would be a good example.  Anakin was an apprentice of Obi-wan Kenobi.   Obi-wan as a master, is not merely a teacher, or his excellency in the Force that makes him received a "Master" title.  He is simply the master of Anakin, who is a servant in a sense.  The Sith side has some relevance to real life too.  One master one disciple.  It is what frequently happens.  Anyhow I don't know if Anakin paid any tuition fee or not.  But he did pay dearly for that education in the end. 

 

Lastly I don't view Neidan as spiritual.   It is more a life science or technique to me. 

 

[awaken]

Huang Yuanji has a class, he is from the Qing Dynasty

 

Regarding traditional Chinese medicine, many people may not understand the difference between Shi Fang and Jing Fang
But Jing Fang cannot be learned in paid schools

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by awaken

[Master Logray]

4 minutes ago, awaken said:

Huang Yuanji has a class, he is from the Qing Dynasty

 

 

黃元吉？  I think that was more like a seminar (講座) ？

 

By the way, how is the situation in Taiwan now, how do people find teachers for Neidan?

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Master Logray

[awaken]

If you read Huang Yuanji's book carefully, it is mentioned in the book that he talks about his students

If he's just lecturing, he can't possibly know the extent of his students

 

I teach in the QQ community
No charge
nothing to hide

For me, the teachers of other transfer methods are just qigong masters, not alchemy masters.

Edited December 22, 2022 by awaken

[Barnaby]

5 hours ago, NoOne said:

Is it not that being a master of Daoist arts is supposed to be associated with wisdom and some degree of altruism as a result of spiritual growth?

 

You'd think so, wouldn't you? 

 

Or is that just another cultural misunderstanding? 

[refugeindharma]

Wouldn't releasing powerful yet dangerous practices out to the public - even if the risks were clearly outlined - just be plain stupid and completely reckless? 

 

Not only would potential practitioners get themselves injured or potentially die, there would be the karmic entanglement and outfall from the person who released the practice or technique. 

 

I don't think it is as simple as saying, "Hey guys, you can do this practice but make sure you don't do it unless x, y, or z because otherwise you might die, good luck!"

 

That doesn't absolve one from the consequences of such an action... "I told them the risks and dangers, now it's out of my hands folks, if they do the practice and fuck it up, well it's on them!" 

 

If it weren't released, then there is none of the karmic involvement and potential disservice, and in retrospect, what would the upsides vs downsides be of doing this? Even if there were a few people who managed to pull off the practice, how many countless others would fuck themselves up in the process?

 

How's the Mantak Chia crew doing these days?

 

I strongly believe in the idea of "strong opinions held loosely", yet having strong opinions doesn't mean you need to shove it into people's faces or down their throats and completely believe this is what the entire world needs (or even wants...)

 

Reminds me of people who first get into psychedelics, weed, or whatever and are all like "Oh my freaaking gawwdd, everyone in the world needs to fkn do this!~~~!!~ This would totally change the world for the bettuhhh" or the first-timers to Goenka 10 day retreats who are high on the euphoria of just having completed something difficult for the first time in their life and their thinking about all of the people in their life they think could benefit from attending a retreat who (a) have no freaking desire at all for something like that, nor (b) the appetite or potential to pull it off

 

Yeah, well, that's just like, my opinion, man

[Nungali]

Jeeze what a mess !   

 

It used to be so simple with my teacher  -  but you see, he doesn't do any of 'this stuff'    ^   . He is very practical and 'down to earth '  *   

 

I would turn up  and not long after that hand whatever ' goodies' ;   a few bottles of  Bundaburg ginger beer , a box of fish hooks and other fishing tackle, a huge fresh fish from the ocean  ,  a box of firewood kindling ,   a harvest from  home ; fruits and some veggies,  a wallaby, some rolls of strong hemp twine, one visit, some ancient weathered   stone hand tools  .... night entertainment (stories , things that make them laugh ) around the fire .

 

I am sure others give him 'less practical' things .... I occasionally noticed some expensive or exotic looking items or jewellery -  part of his country has a very popular tourist area where visitors and locals like to show off by throwing their money around .

 

*  

'Down to earth '

Spoiler

 

 

[awaken]

不管是佛陀，或是呂祖，都向大眾公布練法，只是遺憾的是竟然沒甚麼人看得懂他們說的，大家還是一味地追逐偏差的祕法，甚至把偏差現象當成是強大的現象

佛陀很清楚地說明了四聖諦，這就是練習的方法。呂祖也很清楚地說明了兩個陰陽，這也是練習的方法。

眾人總是愛追逐旁門左道，就像佛陀說的，追著自己的慾望跑，想要更強大。

 

Whether it is the Buddha or Lu Zu, they all announced the practice methods to the public, but it is a pity that no one can understand what they said. Everyone still blindly pursues the secret method of deviation, and even regards the phenomenon of deviation as a powerful phenomenon.

The Buddha explained the Four Noble Truths very clearly, and this is how to practice. Lu Zu also clearly explained the two yin and yang, which is also the method of practice.

Everyone always loves to chase heresy, just like the Buddha said, to run after one's own desires and want to be stronger.

 

 

就拿灌氣來說，當你對於外氣完全沒有感覺的時候，你是沒辦法知道對方的氣場如何。但是當你練到心竅開啟之後，這些所謂的氣場的問題，對你來說，已經無法欺騙你了。當你發現一個所謂的氣功大師的氣，竟然比不過你家旁邊公園裡的一小片樹林，不知道你對所謂的氣功大師，作何感想?

 

Take filling qi as an example, when you have no sense of external qi at all, you have no way of knowing what the other party's aura is like. But when you have practiced until your mind orifices are opened, these so-called aura problems can no longer deceive you. When you find that the qi of a so-called qigong master is not as good as that of a small forest in the park next to your home, how do you feel about the so-called qigong master?

 

我也曾經迷惑於氣功大師的強大氣感，直到我完全開啟心竅之後，見證了事實，所謂的灌氣一說，就再也無法迷惑我了，就像原本是盲目的雙眼，現在雙眼打開了，看得清清楚楚的。

 

I was also confused by the powerful sense of energy of the Qigong master, until I fully opened my mind and witnessed the fact. Once the so-called infusion of energy is said, it can no longer confuse me, just like the original blind eyes, now the eyes Open it up and see clearly.

 

所以這些氣功大師所謂的方法外傳很危險之類的說法，在我面前，就跟謊話一樣。

 

So these qigong masters' so-called rumors about the danger of spreading their methods outside are just like lies in front of me.

 

當然我也希望跟我一樣，對於氣場有感知的人數越來越多，這樣這些氣功大師的話，就可以攤在陽光下，清清楚楚，無所遁形。

 

Of course, I also hope that like me, more and more people have the perception of the aura, so that the words of these qigong masters can be spread out in the sun, clearly, without hiding anything.

 

當你練到心竅打開之後，當對方跟你說話的時候，你是對他的氣感有感知的。當你練得更進階的時候，你閉著眼睛，甚至可以看到對方的氣場的光。他從你面前走過，你就看到他的光，從你面前移動過去。甚至你看到一個病人，你也能感知他身上的病。甚至你到醫院，你也能清楚的感知到醫院的病氣很濃。更不要說，當你接觸大樹的時候，你可以清楚感知到這棵樹的氣在你全身複製。

 

When you practice until your heart orifice is opened, when the other party talks to you, you can sense his aura. When you practice more advanced, you can even see the light of the opponent's aura with your eyes closed. He walks in front of you, and you see his light moving in front of you. Even when you see a sick person, you can perceive the disease in him. Even when you go to the hospital, you can clearly feel that the hospital is very sick. Not to mention, when you touch a big tree, you can clearly feel the tree's qi replicated all over your body.

 

當你練到這裡，你可以輕易的感知對方的氣場是否足夠當你的老師，只要對方跟你有互動，你就可以感知對方的氣場。如果對方跟你影音互動是更為清楚的。

 

When you practice here, you can easily perceive whether the other party's aura is enough to be your teacher, as long as the other party interacts with you, you can perceive the other party's aura. If the other party interacts with your audio and video, it is more clear.

 

我知道這裡有些人是透過zoom跟他的老師互動，如果你能練到心竅打開，產生感知能力，你就能輕易的感知你的老師的氣場，你就能知道你的老師是否有足夠的資格教你如何練氣。

 

I know that some people here interact with their teachers through zoom. If you can practice to open your heart and develop perception ability, you can easily perceive your teacher's aura, and you can know whether your teacher has enough Qualified to teach you how to practice Qi.

 

對一個初學者來說，尋找一個適當的老師，一直都是一個大問題。初學者沒有分辨能力可以分辨哪個老師教的是對的。
因此總是很容易地跟著人多的隊伍走。
但是在修行領域，不是人多就是對的。
人多只能證明這個老師講的是比較粗淺的。
就像念小學的人數，一定比念博士的人數多很多。

 

Finding a proper teacher has always been a big problem for a beginner. Beginners do not have the ability to distinguish which teacher is teaching the right one.
So it is always easy to follow the crowds.
But in the field of practice, it doesn't mean that there are many people and right.
The large number of people can only prove that the teacher's teaching is relatively superficial.
Just like the number of people studying in elementary school must be much more than the number of people studying for a doctorate.

 

但是當這個初學者，有一天不再是以自己的情緒或者思想去判斷一個老師的程度，而是以氣場去感知一個老師的時候，這個初學者就再也不需要這個老師了。
甚至這個初學者再也不是初學者了。

 

But when this beginner no longer judges the level of a teacher by his own emotions or thoughts one day, but perceives a teacher by his aura, this beginner will no longer need this teacher.
This beginner is no longer a beginner.

 

當你已經能夠感知他人的時候，你會知道，所謂的腹部強大的氣場，其實是強大的電阻所造成的。
當這個電阻被拿掉之後，這些被阻塞的氣，就會轉化成更高階的能量型態。
當你體會到這點，你就進入了另外一個階段了。

 

When you have been able to perceive others, you will know that the so-called strong Qi field in the abdomen is actually caused by strong resistance.
When this resistance is removed, the blocked Qi will be transformed into a higher-order energy form.
When you experience this, you enter another stage.

 

 

有一條路是覺悟之路，讓你打開迷惘的雙眼，穿過無窮的慾望，看見這個世界的真相。

 

 

There is a road to enlightenment, which allows you to open your confused eyes, pass through endless desires, and see the truth of the world.

Edited December 23, 2022 by awaken

[freeform]

On 22/12/2022 at 5:57 AM, NoOne said:

Is it not that being a master of Daoist arts is supposed to be associated with wisdom and some degree of altruism as a result of spiritual growth?

We have preconceived ideas of what wisdom means - how it should look.

 

Wisdom, to us looks like some sort of ideal… and this ideal is based on our acquired experiences, our conditioning…

 

We grow up in a culture of extreme consumerism and so we think wisdom reflects some ideal that’s the opposite of that… oh look he’s so happy living with nothing… teaching for free… giving away everything. He must be very wise.

 

Maybe we grew up in a famine… where the opposite is true - people are eating bark and shoe leather to survive. So to us, we see a wealthy, healthy person as wise… look how she’s so curvaceous… how she managed to accumulate wealth even though the world is so desolate. She must be extremely wise to manage that.

 

Is either of these views wisdom? 
 

I’d say no - it’s just our knee jerk reactions based on our conditioning.

 

The whole point of true wisdom is that it doesn’t come from conditioning… if it does come from conditioning, I’d call it cleverness… wisdom is something else entirely.

 

I had a teacher at one point that loved cowboys… liked the outfits, the movies, their pioneer mentality. How weird it was seeing a short, happy Asian dude wearing a cowboy hat - yet having amazing internal skill.

 

Last I heard he dropped the cowboy stuff altogether… barely remembers being into it when people ask 😅

 

Our views of how things should be are born of our own conditioning. This is the opposite of wisdom.

 

Then again some so called masters cotton on to this ‘crazy wisdom’ and use it as a guise to do what they want (base desires).

There’s that well known Tibetan Lama that came to the west, became an alcoholic, beat and abused his followers, slept with all his students - and everyone ate it all up coz - you know - ‘crazy wisdom’. I even see him still getting quoted around here from time to time 🤦‍♂️

 

We’d like things to be black and white, easily discernible, easily understood.

 

But we often get too caught up in our own preferences, our own conditioning to really see what’s in front of us.

 

Just coz a teacher is teaching for free, doesn’t mean a thing… some of the worst, most abusive teachers ‘teach for free’.

 

Sometimes teachers ask for ridiculous amounts of money… and it’s up to your discernment to work out if this is coming from a place of greed or something else. Don’t let your knee jerk conditioned response decide things for you. It’s the same knee jerk response that will pull you into a scam or a cult as well as turn you off of a genuine teacher that doesn’t conform to your views.

 

How could a little dude with a cowboy hat possibly be a Neigong master!?

 

Remember a genuine spiritual teacher is just as concerned with getting the right kind of student as you might be with getting the right kind of teacher. There’s more to these teachings than just information!

[Barnaby]

28 minutes ago, freeform said:

There’s that well known Tibetan Lama

 

Yep, Sogyal Rinpoche, founder of the Rigpa network.

[Barnaby]

35 minutes ago, freeform said:

We grow up in a culture of extreme consumerism and so we think wisdom reflects some ideal that’s the opposite of that…

 

Indeed. And you can trace the thought process back through the hippies, the Beat Generation, and beyond...

 

I sometimes wonder to what extent we are all the bastard offspring of Mme Blavatsky and the Theosophical Society 

 

Now there was a Secret Doctrine for you...

[Wilhelm]

14 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

Yep, Sogyal Rinpoche, founder of the Rigpa network.

I had a different guy come to mind 😂 there must've been a couple 

 

Quote

I sometimes wonder to what extent we are all the bastard offspring of Mme Blavatsky and the Theosophical Society

Hopefully not too much!  For all her achievements she always seemed a bit nuts to me.  For all I know she had her finger right on the money but I had been under the impression she was one of the originators of the new age tendency to take blue and yellow and red and make brown out of them.

Edited December 23, 2022 by Wilhelm

[Barnaby]

14 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Hopefully not too much!  For all her achievements she always seemed a bit nuts to me.  For all I know she had her finger right on the money but I had been under the impression she was one of the originators of the new age tendency to take blue and yellow and red and make brown out of them.

 

Totally. 

 

I didn't mean the specific content as much as the tendency to seek wisdom in the diametric opposite of your cultural context. For Blavatsky et al, that context was the complete domination of scientific, industrial materialism. 

[anshino23]

On 12/22/2022 at 12:49 AM, MetaDao said:

I would say this is more a false character test done by fraudsters.

 

True masters don’t need to charge. It is more of an energy exchange. Yin and Yang. Giving and receiving.

 

I like my friend's take on this... May provide you with a different perspective...

 

Allow me to share...  

 

This answer is not as straightforward as one might think. Remember that there is also always the level of mundane critical thinking, where one should look at cause-and-effect and sensibility, instead of sticking to values, rites and rituals blindly. The world functions as a better place because of sensibility (with good intentions) and not solely on virtue.

 

There are a few things we need to consider before we answer the question. The first thing is always the motivation and intention of the teacher. The second thing is the student. Lastly, it is how the whole thing fits in a way that allows for the fruits of enlightenment to be reaped on both sides.

 

For the teacher, if you were to ask for monetary returns, that is not a mistake. The mistake is not about reciprocation but about accessibility of the dharma. We must strive to let the dharma be accessible to anyone, regardless of one's financial status. Hence, many teachers function by a donation-only basis, which emulates the begging lifestyle advocated by the Buddha. Begging is not supported in western societies, and is in fact shunned, with the increase of laws against homelessness. Hence, it is not practical, because a follower of the Buddha has to firstly ensure one's own physical survival before one is able to cultivate the dharma.

 

There are enlightened beings who write about their experiences and sell them as copies. This reason is simple: If you follow the laws of how the world operates, money is an enabling method for distribution, as well as for survival. The problem rises only when one becomes attached to this material gain and what it offers, indulging in it instead of using it purely for subsistence. It is more of a mastery of cause and effect, not sticking to rigid views. An enlightened being is human, of course one must live according to the rules of society.

 

Another point about the teacher is that this teacher must recognize one's own attainment. Mastery of a certain jhana, leading to factors like bliss, joy, tranquility, equanimity and so on, are essential, because absorption is always linked to insight. The deeper one goes, the more insight one has, and there is in increased ability to look at the whole process as a whole. Addictions and habits must at least be worked on, or roasted away through jhana. The reason for this is that the student almost always reflects as the image of the teacher. Hence, if a diligent student does not attain fruit, you can be sure that the teacher does not have attainment. A teacher must thus not teach above one's level.

 

About the student, this can be complicated. There are people who do not value free things. The reason for this is the need for reciprocity and personal projection. People tend to value things that they gain by what they lose. In a way, giving up an unawakened lifestyle in exchange for one based around contemplation can be a huge cost. In the same way, losing material wealth for the dharma can have a psychological effect. This requires a keen sense of insight on the part of the teacher.

 

Lastly, meditation should not be for any other purpose than to reach enlightenment, for in the light of anything worth in th world, there is no other way to end suffering than to cut the fetters that bind us to samsara. Therefore, while meditation can be promoted as a way of relaxation, therapy or benefit-reaping exercise, we should be reminded that all of these traits come as a side-effect when one stops grasping and goes into jhana anyway.

 

Most importantly, it is about accessibility for those who knock on the doors searching for truth, as well as accuracy of what is taught. Also, subsistence and non-indulgence in wealth on the side of the teacher.

[MetaDao]

On 12/23/2022 at 9:40 AM, anshino23 said:

 

I like my friend's take on this... May provide you with a different perspective...

 

Allow me to share...  

 

This answer is not as straightforward as one might think. Remember that there is also always the level of mundane critical thinking, where one should look at cause-and-effect and sensibility, instead of sticking to values, rites and rituals blindly. The world functions as a better place because of sensibility (with good intentions) and not solely on virtue.

 

There are a few things we need to consider before we answer the question. The first thing is always the motivation and intention of the teacher. The second thing is the student. Lastly, it is how the whole thing fits in a way that allows for the fruits of enlightenment to be reaped on both sides.

 

For the teacher, if you were to ask for monetary returns, that is not a mistake. The mistake is not about reciprocation but about accessibility of the dharma. We must strive to let the dharma be accessible to anyone, regardless of one's financial status. Hence, many teachers function by a donation-only basis, which emulates the begging lifestyle advocated by the Buddha. Begging is not supported in western societies, and is in fact shunned, with the increase of laws against homelessness. Hence, it is not practical, because a follower of the Buddha has to firstly ensure one's own physical survival before one is able to cultivate the dharma.

 

There are enlightened beings who write about their experiences and sell them as copies. This reason is simple: If you follow the laws of how the world operates, money is an enabling method for distribution, as well as for survival. The problem rises only when one becomes attached to this material gain and what it offers, indulging in it instead of using it purely for subsistence. It is more of a mastery of cause and effect, not sticking to rigid views. An enlightened being is human, of course one must live according to the rules of society.

 

Another point about the teacher is that this teacher must recognize one's own attainment. Mastery of a certain jhana, leading to factors like bliss, joy, tranquility, equanimity and so on, are essential, because absorption is always linked to insight. The deeper one goes, the more insight one has, and there is in increased ability to look at the whole process as a whole. Addictions and habits must at least be worked on, or roasted away through jhana. The reason for this is that the student almost always reflects as the image of the teacher. Hence, if a diligent student does not attain fruit, you can be sure that the teacher does not have attainment. A teacher must thus not teach above one's level.

 

About the student, this can be complicated. There are people who do not value free things. The reason for this is the need for reciprocity and personal projection. People tend to value things that they gain by what they lose. In a way, giving up an unawakened lifestyle in exchange for one based around contemplation can be a huge cost. In the same way, losing material wealth for the dharma can have a psychological effect. This requires a keen sense of insight on the part of the teacher.

 

Lastly, meditation should not be for any other purpose than to reach enlightenment, for in the light of anything worth in th world, there is no other way to end suffering than to cut the fetters that bind us to samsara. Therefore, while meditation can be promoted as a way of relaxation, therapy or benefit-reaping exercise, we should be reminded that all of these traits come as a side-effect when one stops grasping and goes into jhana anyway.

 

Most importantly, it is about accessibility for those who knock on the doors searching for truth, as well as accuracy of what is taught. Also, subsistence and non-indulgence in wealth on the side of the teacher.

Sure, there is some truth to your words, but I’d still say the majority of this is more rationalization of greed.

 

Are there teachers unattached to money that still charge? Yes, of course. My teacher is one of them. The question is: what are they doing with the money? Anything useful? And, why are they charging money? What’s the reasoning? Yes, this is up to the teacher and student to figure out.
 

Are there teachers that charge nothing that are fraudsters? Yes, of course. The students should easily be able to discern this though.

 

Being both unattached to money and doing something useful with it that helps the world: that, to me, is a sign of true mastery.
 

If you are unattached to money and are doing nothing useful with it, you are not a master. This is simply wastefulness.

 

Similarly, if you are truly unattached from money, you could give it all way in a heartbeat without it affecting you. I do not think many are at this level. They simply delude themselves and their students that they are 🤷‍♂️

 

Seems like a whole lot of self-deceptive rationalizations to me 

Edited December 24, 2022 by MetaDao

[awaken]

A high-level teacher selects students, so he has no way to collect money, because after collecting money, he has no way to select students.

Some people are of poor quality, and it is impossible to achieve results no matter how much they practice, so after collecting money, it will be very troublesome.

Only low-level teachers who teach low-level content will receive money.

 

Most fee-paying teachers stay at the level of water and fire.

As for the teachers who teach gold and wood(Dao), there is no way to charge them.

Because not everyone can do it.

For a high-level teacher, there is no need to teach water and fire, and students can practice on their own.

 

If a student can't even achieve the most basic water and fire, then his quality is not enough to deal with the more difficult gold and wood. For such a student, no matter how much money you charge, it will be useless.

 

Teachers who teach gold and wood will leave more time for themselves, not for students who cannot achieve water and fire.

 

 

You only know about choosing teachers, and you probably haven't thought about it. Teachers who are really advanced are also choosing students.

If a student's spiritual quality is too poor, the teacher at a high level will simply ignore it.

 

高層次的老師是挑選學生的，所以他沒辦法收錢，因為收了錢之後，他就沒辦法挑選學生了。

有的人素質很差，怎麼練也不可能練出成果，所以收了錢之後，就很麻煩。

只有低層次的老師，教的內容是低層次的，才會收錢。

大部分的收費老師，停留在水和火的層次。

而教金和木的老師，是沒辦法收費的。

因為這不是每個人都能練成。

對一個高層次的老師來說，水和火是不需要教的，學生自己練就可以了。

如果一個學生連最基本的水和火都無法達成，那他的素質就不足以應付更難的金和木，像這樣的學生，收再多錢都沒用。

教金和木的老師，會把更多時間留給自己，而不是留給無法達成水和火的學生。

各位只知道挑選老師，應該也沒想過，真正高階段的老師也在挑選學生。

如果學生的心靈素質太差，高階段的老師會直接忽略不理。
 

Edited December 24, 2022 by awaken

[NoOne]

14 hours ago, freeform said:

We have preconceived ideas of what wisdom means - how it should look.

 

Wisdom, to us looks like some sort of ideal… and this ideal is based on our acquired experiences, our conditioning…

 

We grow up in a culture of extreme consumerism and so we think wisdom reflects some ideal that’s the opposite of that… oh look he’s so happy living with nothing… teaching for free… giving away everything. He must be very wise.

 

Maybe we grew up in a famine… where the opposite is true - people are eating bark and shoe leather to survive. So to us, we see a wealthy, healthy person as wise… look how she’s so curvaceous… how she managed to accumulate wealth even though the world is so desolate. She must be extremely wise to manage that.

 

Is either of these views wisdom? 
 

I’d say no - it’s just our knee jerk reactions based on our conditioning.

 

The whole point of true wisdom is that it doesn’t come from conditioning… if it does come from conditioning, I’d call it cleverness… wisdom is something else entirely.

 

I had a teacher at one point that loved cowboys… liked the outfits, the movies, their pioneer mentality. How weird it was seeing a short, happy Asian dude wearing a cowboy hat - yet having amazing internal skill.

 

Last I heard he dropped the cowboy stuff altogether… barely remembers being into it when people ask 😅

 

Our views of how things should be are born of our own conditioning. This is the opposite of wisdom.

 

Then again some so called masters cotton on to this ‘crazy wisdom’ and use it as a guise to do what they want (base desires).

There’s that well known Tibetan Lama that came to the west, became an alcoholic, beat and abused his followers, slept with all his students - and everyone ate it all up coz - you know - ‘crazy wisdom’. I even see him still getting quoted around here from time to time 🤦‍♂️

 

We’d like things to be black and white, easily discernible, easily understood.

 

But we often get too caught up in our own preferences, our own conditioning to really see what’s in front of us.

 

Just coz a teacher is teaching for free, doesn’t mean a thing… some of the worst, most abusive teachers ‘teach for free’.

 

Sometimes teachers ask for ridiculous amounts of money… and it’s up to your discernment to work out if this is coming from a place of greed or something else. Don’t let your knee jerk conditioned response decide things for you. It’s the same knee jerk response that will pull you into a scam or a cult as well as turn you off of a genuine teacher that doesn’t conform to your views.

 

How could a little dude with a cowboy hat possibly be a Neigong master!?

 

Remember a genuine spiritual teacher is just as concerned with getting the right kind of student as you might be with getting the right kind of teacher. There’s more to these teachings than just information!

 

I would say it would depend on their intentions and how they conduct themselves. A teacher in a cowboy hat with a cowboy fascination could be a neigong master; that's just his lateral interest/quirk.

 

But say a teacher that spends significant amounts of energy into acquiring wealth for the purposes of acquiring wealth itself; he does so to prop himself up (ego) and/or because he sees a lot value in money itself. This is not a wise person. 

 

A certain amount of money to survive is one thing, to be modestly wealthy from good work is one thing, but the previous is a flaw in their values. I could imagine a wise man saying something like: For what is money but paper printed out of thin air, backed by nothing, and the means for the corrupt; to seek money in this way is to serve mammon not the spirit; for what is money to one whose spirit is already rich.

 

There is a reason why people with very high IQs tend to not be very wealthy. There is a reason why Jesus was poor and the Buddha gave up riches to seek meaning.

 

If the teacher seems to be skewed towards profit-driven marketer more so or equal to that of teacher, then I would be very cautious.

Edited December 24, 2022 by NoOne

[freeform]

5 hours ago, NoOne said:

If the teacher seems to be skewed towards profit-driven marketer more so or equal to that of teacher, then I would be very cautious.

Indeed.

 

I’d say that if a teacher spends more time trying to attract new students than on the students they already have - that’s certainly a red flag.

 

The money thing, in China and with the Chinese diaspora especially, is harder to discern.

 

I knew a teacher that charged 5 figures for an introduction. I also found out that he had absolutely no need for the money because he was already wealthy from a very successful industrial business he had.

After the introduction he would either teach you for free - or not teach you at all. Why he did this, I have no idea. I’ve heard some teachers say that you simply can’t go deep into the spiritual practice without having enough to support yourself and not be concerned… and similarly without being too attached with what you have - maybe it’s that.

 

Years later I found out from one of the seniors that this teacher ran an orphanage and sponsored people’s expenses at a hospital - but these were not publicised things at all. Only a few of his closest students found out about it by accident.

 

All you saw up front was - an apparently advanced teacher that charged $10,000+ just to meet.
 

That’s as red flaggy as it gets…

 

but it’s not the whole story.

 

What I did notice is that most of the really advanced teachers wanted as few students as possible… but they had to be good students. So there’s always a lot of hurdles to jump to be accepted.

 

Things work differently in the west though.

[freeform]

On 21/12/2022 at 1:05 PM, freeform said:

I’ve shared practices that are worth experimenting with many times on the forum. They’re just not that exciting and mentally stimulating for most  

Someone just very helpfully reminded me of one such post (I never remember what I post where!). Thank you to that person!

 

 

[Master Logray]

I think the discussions has been mixing up 2 types of teachers.  One type is traditional.  Students need to attend a ceremony, kneel or fall down in front of the master to be accepted as a student.   There is deep and long term relationship.  Fees and ways of payment vary greatly.  It is natural for students take into account the master's private conduct or aspirations.  Freeform and shadow_self talked about this type.

 

While the 2nd type is merely offering a course for a fixed amount.   It includes most Qigong and Neigong courses and all online teachings.  These teachers are no different from millions of any other courses.  A student should concern himself with how the transaction is conducted according to legal and proper business norms.   The personal side of the teacher is generally none of the students' concern.   Damo clearly belongs to this type.   If he is teaching in a park, would a prospective student approach him and asks  how he is spending his money? donating to any orphanage lately ?