When the student is ready...

[Shugyo]

I have a couple questions/thoughts.

 

First, do you all think it's possible to learn effective Neigong or Qigong from 'online courses'? I feel like everything I've ever heard indicates that in-person practice is the only way for the nuances to be conveyed, and for mistakes to be accurately corrected. Thoughts?

 

Secondly, I see a dilemma that I never see addressed. People ask questions here and get responses like "Go find a teacher" or "Get a qualified instructor", etc. - which is all well and good, but something I hear so many people mention in videos are statements like "Even most 'masters' do/teach this incorrectly and spend years wasting time..." So I guess my question is How do you know if a teacher is 'qualified'?

 

[Master Logray]

First question: Yes.  For elementary stage.

 

Second question:  Watch his students. 

[old3bob]

on the other hand, how can a teacher know if a student is qualified...do they have down to earth honesty,  common sense,  and basic ability to do work,  thus some basic virtues to start with.

 

And if they are at the level of private, so to speak, they are then willing to learn from a corporal.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by old3bob

[ChiDumbass]

I would say that the best way to identify if someone is a good master or not is by the person looks. The outside reflects the inside, so if he looks tired, sick or bald, he clearly not mastered the art.

 

My master is 6'3 and 265 lbs, with very little bodyfat. He also has long and lustrous ginger hair, along with a nice tan at the age of 37, indicating that he is very healthy and actually know how to channel chi toward health and spirituality.

 

As he said : "The body reflects the power of the soul"

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

2 hours ago, Shugyo said:

First, do you all think it's possible to learn effective Neigong or Qigong from 'online courses'? I feel like everything I've ever heard indicates that in-person practice is the only way for the nuances to be conveyed, and for mistakes to be accurately corrected. Thoughts?

 

Yes, but only if you can have direct contact with your teacher so they can correct your posture over a video call.

 

In later stages you will have to meet in person however. 

 

2 hours ago, Shugyo said:

Secondly, I see a dilemma that I never see addressed. People ask questions here and get responses like "Go find a teacher" or "Get a qualified instructor", etc. - which is all well and good, but something I hear so many people mention in videos are statements like "Even most 'masters' do/teach this incorrectly and spend years wasting time..." So I guess my question is How do you know if a teacher is 'qualified'?

 

 

Check their lineage, and also the progress of their students. 

[Wilhelm]

25 minutes ago, ChiDumbass said:

I would say that the best way to identify if someone is a good master or not is by the person looks. The outside reflects the inside, so if he looks tired, sick or bald, he clearly not mastered the art.

 

My master is 6'3 and 265 lbs, with very little bodyfat. He also has long and lustrous ginger hair, along with a nice tan at the age of 37, indicating that he is very healthy and actually know how to channel chi toward health and spirituality.

 

As he said : "The body reflects the power of the soul"

Health is important, for sure, but if it were that simple wouldn't every pro athlete qualify as a master?  🤔

[ChiDragon]

5 hours ago, Shugyo said:

How do you know if a teacher is 'qualified'?

If, and only if, the teach emphasize the significance of slow and deep breathing. Otherwise, I go to someone that does.

[Cobie]

Imo only a dog has a master.

 

Following someone else’s advice will never get you where you need to be. 
Do your own thing. You can do it.
Everything you need is inside you. You don’t need an external tuitor, you have ‘intuition’.
 

“you already have your own wings. I will not give you more feathers.” (Rumi)

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/1347695-i-was-dead-i-came-alive-i-was-tears-i

 

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Cobie

[Cobie]

.

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Cobie

[Wilhelm]

30 minutes ago, Cobie said:

 ‘intuition’

But what's intuition other than memory plus pattern recognition?  🤔

 

Is this really a sufficient guide for arts as subtle as these?

[Cobie]

Just now, Wilhelm said:

But what's intuition other than memory plus pattern recognition?  🤔

 

Is this really a sufficient guide for arts as subtle as these?

Go inside and find out for yourself.

[Wilhelm]

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

Go inside and find out for yourself.

My brief experience as a self taught practitioner was both lackluster and unfulfilling.  I appreciate that everybody's different but I made more progress in my first day of class than I did in my first year 😂

 

I'm of the opinion that some skills are more efficiently learned kinesthetically, but now with a range of online tuition I know people are learning skills through audiovisual input too

[ChiDragon]

24 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

But what's intuition other than memory plus pattern recognition?  🤔

 

Is this really a sufficient guide for arts as subtle as these?

 

I would read as much as I can. Use common sense to come up with a general conclusion and use it as a baseline. Update your thoughts with new information. Use the baseline as your major reference. Unless the original baseline is incorrect, do not jump from subject to subject but stay with your baseline. I think this would come closer to a final conclusion within reason. Keep in mind of what you are doing and don't let people mislead or distract you.

Edited December 22, 2022 by ChiDragon

[Wilhelm]

12 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

I would read as much as I can. Use common sense to come up with a general conclusion and use it as a baseline. Update your thoughts with new information. Use the baseline as your major reference. Unless the original baseline is incorrect, do not jump from subject to subject but stay with your baseline. I think this would come closer to a final conclusion within reason. Keep in mind of what you are doing and don't let people mislead or distract you.

That seems a very efficient way to approach an intellectual pursuit, and about as close I can imagine to effective self-scrutiny for sure.  Did you find learning breathing methods or other physical techniques from texts difficult though?  There's obvious a very physical 'skill-based' facet to the arts that can be hard to track down discernable instructions for, and then you've got to puzzle out whether you're getting the correct result...

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

10 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

There's obvious a very physical 'skill-based' facet to the arts that can be hard to track down discernable instructions for, and then you've got to puzzle out whether you're getting the correct result...

Another good reason to find a teacher, so you don’t waste a lot of your time doing trial and error. 

[Wilhelm]

Just now, Pak_Satrio said:

Another good reason to find a teacher, so you don’t waste a lot of your time doing trial and error. 

Yeah I see the argument like this:

 

Upside: good teacher is imo most efficient way to progress

 

Downside: when you start out you don't know anything and will probably not pick an good one

[awaken]

If you can find the English translation of Lu Dongbin's Huang He Fu, there is a basic principle of how a beginner should do it.

Absolutely not just practicing breathing.

 

粵兮最上一乘，乃無作而亦無為。還丹七返，因有動而方有靜。上德以道全其形，是其純乾之未破；下德以術延其命，乃配坎離而方成。是以用陰陽之道，即依世法而修出世之法；效男女之生，必發天機而作泄天之機。方欲性命以雙修，須仗法財而兩用。先結同心為輔佐，次覓巨室以良圖。
然欲希世之妙道，必須密叩於玄關。擇善地，慎事之機密；置丹房，器皿之相當。安爐立鼎，配內外兩個陰陽；煉己築基，固彼我一身邦國。對景忘情，須憑銳氣之勇猛；煨爐鑄劍，全借金水之柔剛。若運用，若抽添，慮險而須當沐浴；若鼓琴，若敲竹，知雄而便宜守雌。百日功靈，曲直而即能應物；一年純熟，潛躍而無不由心。能盜彼殺中之生氣，以點我離內之陰精。玉液金液，一了性而一了命；二候四候，半在坎而半在離。始焉將無入有，龍居虎位，要知藥物之老嫩；終焉流戊就己，虎會龍宮，須辨水源之清濁。煉己待時，務要陽生於赤縣；遇機臨爐，必須癸動於神州。若觀見龍在田，須猛烹而極煉；忽聞虎嘯入窟，可倒轉而逆施。火逼金行出坤爐，故名七返；金因火煉歸乾鼎，是曰九還。還者，乾所失而復得之物；返者，我已去而又來之真。殊不知，順則生人生物，逆則成佛成仙。雖分彼我，非閨丹禦女之術；惟知一己，有鵬鳥圖南之志。坎中一點黑鉛，號曰先天，非同類而終不能得；離內七般硃砂，是名孤陰，無真種則時刻難留。是以假乾坤，立鼎爐，覓太乙所含之始氣；借陰陽，作筌蹄，求水府默蘊之玄珠。
趨遄時，補我乾之一缺。俄然間，還彼坤之六虛。到此水歸神室，位列仙班。大抵丹落黃庭，千靈胥參，上帝嘉贊，天地驚寒，抱元守一，溫養十月，神有象，虛極靜篤，坐忘九載體無形。行滿三千，斯其道術造端，似依正而除邪；功完八百，就中火候託始，如以奇而用兵。鉛與汞，無丙叟東西間隔；嬰與奼，無黃婆咫尺參差。識急緩，辨吉凶，在匠手以斟酌；明進退，知止足，豈愚昧而能為？認消息，如海之潮信；審造化，似日月之盈虧。三日出庚，乃一陽生於坤地；十五圓甲，則六爻周乎乾元。泄金竅，鑿混沌，露老莊之肺腑；明坤戶，飲刀圭，吐伯陽之心肝。
今遇學仙龍江子，夙具道骨仙豐，名在丹台玉室，遂結煙霞同志之友，願發龍虎秘藏之機。須尋火候，早餌黍珠，他日臻於閬苑玄圃，亦可歎伊骨死屍。
此賦乃祖師在黃鶴樓題書，示龍江子之文，其文已遍流於世，惜其未見刻本。數十年所見者，皆抄錄之文，其中字句錯訛者甚多。求其刻本，終不可得。餘恐其久而愈錯愈訛，揀其錯訛稍少者，刊刻普傳，不過暫存於板，非便以此為成案。若有見刻本者，更望校正更換，刊梓傳世，庶不枉祖師當年啟後之婆心矣！
棲雲山素樸散人劉一明述刊 後進學人夏複恆重梓

Edited December 23, 2022 by awaken

[Gerard]

17 hours ago, Shugyo said:

I have a couple questions/thoughts.

 

First, do you all think it's possible to learn effective Neigong or Qigong from 'online courses'? I feel like everything I've ever heard indicates that in-person practice is the only way for the nuances to be conveyed, and for mistakes to be accurately corrected. Thoughts?

 

 

1. FORGET ABOUT IT

 

2. If you do you'll have to relearn the whole thing and repair your body from any inflicted damages because you'll mess up your system bad if you intend to do so over a period of time.

 

For example:

 

1. A bunch of monkeys pretending they know and are actually practicing Ba Gua Quan:

 

https://youtu.be/QN8jf4YYu4Y

 

 

2. Real practitioners (the last one is the teacher that taught me the art in REAL LIFE). I have also learnt a lot from He Jinghan's online material in his YT channel but only while I was learning from my teacher.

 

 

https://youtu.be/Bz5M3r7w7pQ

 

https://youtu.be/BBXOiTigDNI

 

https://youtu.be/KxMWIW1W8rI

 

 

Complex neigong/IMA cannot be learnt alone let alone from videos.

 

 

[Barnaby]

14 minutes ago, Gerard said:

1. A bunch of monkeys pretending they know and are actually practicing Ba Gua Quan:

 

That Bondi Beach demo is a classic 

[old3bob]

Chapter 49  T.T.C.

The Sage has no interests of his own,
But takes the interests of the people as his own.
He is kind to the kind;
He is also kind to the unkind:
For Virtue is kind.
He is faithful to the faithful;
He is also faithful to the unfaithful:
For Virtue is faithful.

In the midst of the world, the Sage is shy and self-effacing.
For the sake of the world he keeps his heart in its nebulous state.
All the people strain their ears and eyes:
The Sage only smiles like an amused infant.

 

(some may hope for a teacher like this...others may hope for power to dominate others)

 

Edited December 23, 2022 by old3bob

[Wilhelm]

10 hours ago, awaken said:

If you can find the English translation of Lu Dongbin's Huang He Fu, there is a basic principle of how a beginner should do it.

Absolutely not just practicing breathing.

Thanks for sharing.  Although my translation app is not ideal it still seems this text is based in the sort of metaphorical language that a beginner might not be able to understand.

 

Do you have any recommendations for how they might learn the applications of metaphors used in these texts?

[freeform]

21 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Do you have any recommendations for how they might learn the applications of metaphors used in these texts?

Zifagong in an open field is Awaken’s main method from what I’ve seen.

[awaken]

2 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Thanks for sharing.  Although my translation app is not ideal it still seems this text is based in the sort of metaphorical language that a beginner might not be able to understand.

 

Do you have any recommendations for how they might learn the applications of metaphors used in these texts?

 

 

To me those nouns are not metaphors and not a problem

If anyone is interested, I can explain

[anshino23]

Some thoughts... 

• Follow the Teachings, not the Teacher.
• Do not take the teachings on faith before you investigate for yourself and find benefit for oneself and for all. 
• When looking at a Teacher, ask: Does this teacher encourage personal investigation and understanding? 
• If a teacher encourages students to chase sensory impressions as law, his teaching is questionable. If a teacher teaches supernatural abilities as the goal of the path, rather than milestones on the Way, his teaching is questionable.
• If a teacher discourages investigation and enforces doctrine, this teacher is questionable. 
• One should seek to know whether the teacher has attainment or is connected with a living lineage with supramundane enlightenment at the head of the lineage - a teacher who is not enlightened can teach you mundane wisdom, but this teacher cannot teach you supramundane wisdom. 
• Can this teacher bring out deep wisdom from the insight-stream and be able to answer questions with deep wisdom?
• Can this teacher be unobstructed by any situation and yet have perfect conduct? 
• Can this teacher be unobstructed by evil realms?
• Does this teacher have signs and manifestations of the extraordinary attainments; signs and milestones ("fruits") of correct practice?

[awaken]

粵兮最上一乘，乃無作而亦無為。

 

最高的修行方法，就是沒有刻意去做什麼，也沒有刻意去引導。

第一句話就打臉了一大堆大師的密法

 

 

The highest practice method is to not deliberately do anything, nor to deliberately guide.

The first sentence slapped a lot of secret methods of masters

 

 

 

So when you hear that someone is selling secret methods, ten question marks should be put on your head

You have to question this teacher is very problematic.

Edited December 23, 2022 by awaken