Precepts and Ethical Foundations of Daoism

[Wilhelm]

To all our cultivators - what do you see as the relevance of the common ethical teachings of Daoism i.e. the Ten Precepts or Shíjiè jīng 十戒經 and to some degree Wang Chongyang's Fifteen Essays to Establish a Teaching  

 

Is this pointless dogma, a critical tool in shaping our mind, or something in between?

 

Are the guidances given still valid, or hopelessly outdated? 

 

Are there other sources for ethical guidance in your tradition?

 

And for non-Daoist practitioners reading - what's the importance of the ethical teachings of your own tradition?

Edited December 23, 2022 by Wilhelm

[MetaDao]

I think they are a compass pointing us in the right direction for high-level attainment.

 

This, however, does not mean that those of high level attainment always adhere to the precepts.

[MetaDao]

“Cutting down trees breaks the flow of the fluids in the Earth’s vessels, just as asking for goods or money when giving teachings on the Dao takes away from the people’s blood vessels.”

 

Taken from Fifteen Essays to Establish a Teaching

[MetaDao]

“In true sitting, during the twelve[double] hours, whether you are standing, walking, sitting, or lying down, and in all states of movement or quiescence, your mind should be like Mount Tai: motionless and unshaken.” 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

To all our cultivators - what do you see as the relevance of the common ethical teachings of Daoism i.e. the Ten Precepts or Shíjiè jīng 十戒經 and to some degree Wang Chongyang's Fifteen Essays to Establish a Teaching  

 

Is this pointless dogma, a critical tool in shaping our mind, or something in between?

 

Are the guidances given still valid, or hopelessly outdated? 

 

Are there other sources for ethical guidance in your tradition?

 

And for non-Daoist practitioners reading - what's the importance of the ethical teachings of your own tradition?

 

Very important - essential actually .  The weird thing is some people think they are not there , or prominent  yet to me they are central, VERY clear , and spelled out in the central crucial rite ..... on two levels (or two ways to approach it ) .  I guess , for some, in traditions, rights and teachings, just like in 'life' ..... they are not,       'paying attention'   ?     .

 

Looking at the more mainstream western tradition  ( ie. Freemasonry .... well, it used to be a mainstream tradition )  it seems  very much based on ethics  and the teachings are symbolic , using the 'tools of the trade ' to demonstrate ethical principles and relationships .

 

 

 

 

[awaken]

For the Chinese, Taoism does not exist alone in the environment, and Confucianism also has a great influence.

 

 

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Very important - essential actually .  The weird thing is some people think they are not there , or prominent  yet to me they are central, VERY clear , and spelled out in the central crucial rite ..... on two levels (or two ways to approach it ) .  I guess , for some, in traditions, rights and teachings, just like in 'life' ..... they are not,       'paying attention'   ?     .

 

Looking at the more mainstream western tradition  ( ie. Freemasonry .... well, it used to be a mainstream tradition )  it seems  very much based on ethics  and the teachings are symbolic , using the 'tools of the trade ' to demonstrate ethical principles and relationships .

Very interesting, thank you.

 

What different does it make in your tradition - let's say two aspirants have an equal potential and ability but one holds more closely to the ethical teachings than the other.  What outcomes might they expect?

[awaken]

「儒門釋戶道相通，三教從來一祖風」

 

"Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism are interlinked, and the three religions have always been one ancestral style"

 

This is from Wang Chongyang's poem

 

For me, add indian yoga and western new age

[Wilhelm]

6 hours ago, awaken said:

「儒門釋戶道相通，三教從來一祖風」

 

"Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism are interlinked, and the three religions have always been one ancestral style"

 

This is from Wang Chongyang's poem

 

For me, add indian yoga and western new age

Thanks Awaken

 

In relation to the topic of ethics - did you mention this quote to hilight that the ethical foundations of all three of these traditions might be important to consider?  I certainly hope not!  Because that would be a very broad study in and of itself

[old3bob]

an ethical foundation based on dharma/law is paramount,  without that a maw opens up and it is not particular about what falls into it.

[freeform]

Early on it’s simply about keeping students in check - and making sure they’re ripe for growth and transformation…

 

Later on ethics take on an even more important role.
 

Once you touch Spirit, there’s a sort of unfurling of latent karmic patterns.

 

Its a strange thing in that you must be doing rather well in your practice… you will be feeling very good, you feel like you’ve touched the enlightened aspect of yourself - and you have… but this is also where trouble starts - unnoticed.

 

You're feeling all blissed out and strong and full of love - while just under the surface the backlog of karma begins to unwind - often in your behaviours.

 

To you this won’t be obvious at all. You’ll feel unshackled from moral dogma and unattached… normal rules don’t feel like they matter - because you’ve got a direct connection to God!

 

But in fact this is where ethics are of utmost importance!

 

This is where you’re at risk of slowly starting to become abusive, taking what you want from people… manipulating people and events to fulfil your desires - all done unawares - because as I say - you’re full of light and love while doing it. Even the manner in which you go about it may appear benevolent to you or to others - yet it’s all serving some karmic pattern inside.

 

Thats why ethical rules are important - to keep you within bounds of the code of conduct that allows for spiritual growth in your particular tradition.

 

Whats even more important (in my opinion) is a watchful eye from your teacher - as they will be able to see the motivations and the more subtle subversions of your conduct towards personal aims…

 

Another aspect is when you’re selected as a disciple by your teacher - then the rules are more strict - and will be designed to protect the purity of the lineage transmission. The specific rules will depend on the lineage - some for instance will forbid having a family - others won’t. 

[DynamicEquilibrium]

In this matter, there might be two distinctive categories and ways.

 

1- Absolute morals and rules: invented by man to educate and civilize man by control. 

 

2- Absolute common principles: the principles of the Great Nature to educate and civilize man by restoring harmony.

 

Ethics as opposed to morals in the sense of "free choice" to be made by the individual only, may come as a natural practical result from number 2 and never from number 1 hence the failure of the effort of education and civilisation made by the humanity so far. 

 

 

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by DynamicEquilibrium
Punctuation

[freeform]

41 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

failure of the effort of education and civilisation

I wouldn’t be so sure - yes of course the world is not perfect - far from it… but right now I'm feeling reasonably secure in that a band of warmongers won’t suddenly ride into town and start raping and pillage me and my loved ones…

 

External control - as imperfect and problematic as it is, still has its place. It means that people’s base impulses are kept in check - and our civilisation allows for a relatively safe and peaceful existence. 
 

We often have ideals that highlight what’s wrong with our current condition - but being too invested in our ideals blinds us to what’s actually working pretty well right now.

[DynamicEquilibrium]

29 minutes ago, freeform said:

I wouldn’t be so sure - yes of course the world is not perfect - far from it… but right now I'm feeling reasonably secure in that a band of warmongers won’t suddenly ride into town and start raping and pillage me and my loved ones…

 

External control - as imperfect and problematic as it is, still has its place. It means that people’s base impulses are kept in check - and our civilisation allows for a relatively safe and peaceful existence. 
 

We often have ideals that highlight what’s wrong with our current condition - but being too invested in our ideals blinds us to what’s actually working pretty well right now.

 

Yes, as human beings we may feel no real threats yet the Earth, its natural ressources and others species of lives may not exactly feel the same. 

 

External control do pretty well in the purpose of keeping impulses and base desires in check indeed, i would add to direct them too, the modern society seems to create mainly only one type of individual nowadays : the consummer of products, ideas, beliefs... anything. 

 

Yes, we all have our biais from our ideals, i could'nt agree more and of course it is always better to do some kind of discernment thanks to a healthy "immune system". 

 

 

 

 

[freeform]

21 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

Yes, as human beings we may feel no real threats yet the Earth, its natural ressources and others species of lives may not exactly feel the same.

Yeah that’s true - as humanity we certainly have an overconsumption issue… but I personally think that’s more of a problem for us than for the planet.

 

Earth has gone through much worse… many times over and come out the other side. This phase is many lifetimes for us, but just a sneeze on the planetary timescale.

 

Overconsumption affects a deeper aspect of us - and that causes us to lose our spiritual connection. That’s the real issue from my pov.

[Shadow_self]

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

Overconsumption affects a deeper aspect of us - and that causes us to lose our spiritual connection. That’s the real issue from my pov.

 

How pertinent

 

I often think about this. It is upsetting that it happens (I dont think any of us are immune to it)

 

On a personal level, I think whats  almost equally as worrying is that it all feels rather deliberate.

 

Without delving into conspiracy theories, the early application of Freudiuan/Jungian techniques in advertising, to the now 24/7 bombardment of said activity via smartphones and the internet  it seems there is a rather deliberate force pulling people towards overconsumption, and developing vices rather than virtues

 

Sad times...

[awaken]

5 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Thanks Awaken

 

In relation to the topic of ethics - did you mention this quote to hilight that the ethical foundations of all three of these traditions might be important to consider?  I certainly hope not!  Because that would be a very broad study in and of itself

 

Ethics and morals are more related to inner conscience
A person without conscience, no matter how much ethics he has, he will still do bad things

 

倫理道德比較跟內在的良知有關吧
沒良心的人，就算有再多的倫理，他還是會去做壞事

 

 

[Wilhelm]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Early on it’s simply about keeping students in check - and making sure they’re ripe for growth and transformation…

Does embodying the correct ethical qualities increase a student's probability for success (all other things being equal)?

[freeform]

28 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Does embodying the correct ethical qualities increase a student's probability for success (all other things being equal)?

There’s two aspects - personal and lineage.

 

Personal means are you aligned with your deeper ‘Self’. Do you feel completely comfortable - on a deep level with what you’ve done in the world? If you feel iffy about your behaviour in any way, you’ll simply be unable to enter meditative absorption - which is necessary for intermediate level of inner work.

 

Awaken mentioned conscience - this is like an aspect of your manifest self with a connection with your deeper self. If something weighs heavy on your conscience - it will preclude you from accessing meditative absorption.

 

(Does that mean that a psychopath that has done questionable stuff but it hasn’t stained his conscience in any way gets away with it? Yes… to some degree 😬)

 

Lineage - this means that there’s a lineage transmission - and you’ll only be able to align with it fully if your conduct fits within that lineage’s framework. If it doesn’t - then you won’t get the ‘extra help’ from the lineage transmission… it’s like you won’t be able to fully pick up the radio station - you’ll get lots of noise and crackle along with a bit of transmission… when a disciple of a lineage, this is even more important as your Self and the lineage have entered a sort of pact - and not following the lineage ethical framework will impact your personal alignment with higher spirit also.

[awaken]

Your question is closer to the soil in alchemy.
The soil must be cleansed in order to practice to a deeper stage.
Therefore, "cultivating Gi" is a very important part of Taoist cultivation.
Without this part, one will be stuck in formal cultivation, such as stuck in water and fire, and unable to advance to the stage of metal and wood.

 

Gi(己) is the ying of Tu(土，earth) 

 

你這個問題比較接近丹道裡面的土。
土必需要清淨才能練到比較深的階段。
所以『煉己』在道家修煉裡面是非常重要的一環。
沒有這個部分，就會卡在形式上的修煉，例如卡在水火，而無法進階到金木的階段。
 

So when a student is blind to the inner conscience, such a student cannot go deeper, and I usually give up such a student. I will not try to change such a person.

 

所以當一個學生對於內在的良知是盲目的，這樣的學生是沒辦法往內練得更深的，通常我會放棄這樣的學生。我不會嘗試想要去改變這樣的人。

 

Because when a person's inner conscience is blind, he will pursue the phenomena of the material world, but cannot see the deeper evolution. For example, such a person will pursue the various feelings of qi sense on his body, but cannot see the connection between qi and heart.

 

因為當一個人內在的良知是盲目的，他會去追求物質界的現象，而看不到更深層的演化。例如這樣的人會去追求氣感在他的身上的各種感受，而看不到氣和心之間的聯繫。
 

The most important thing in alchemy is the transformation of Shen.
If a person is so blind to his inner conscience that his attention is projected outward, he cannot perceive the evolution of Shen inwardly.
Water and fire are superficial phenomena. To enter the level of Tao, the first door is the appearance of wood.

 

而丹道最重要的就是神的轉化。
如果一個人對於內在的良知非常盲目，他的注意力是向外投射的，他就無法向內覺察到神的演化。
水和火是非常表層的現象，要進入道的層次，第一道門，就是木的出現。

 

Therefore, if the inner conscience is blind, such a person will have no awareness of his own greed at all. This is called soil impurity. Unclean soil cannot interact with water and fire, and naturally cannot produce wood.

 

所以內在的良知如果是盲目的，這樣的人會對於自己的貪慾完全沒有任何覺察能力。這稱為土不清淨。不清淨的土就無法和水火交互作用，自然也無法產生木。

 

And the second gate of Tao is gold (rabbit marrow). Gold comes from the transformation of fire. Therefore, the requirements for the soil are even higher. This is why rabbit marrow is so difficult to produce. Many people can easily develop black liver (wooden). But gold (rabbit marrow) is very difficult.

 

而道的第二道門，就是金（兔髓）。金來自於火的轉變。因此對於土的要求又更高了。這也就是為什麼兔髓是如此難以產生。很多人很容易練出烏肝（木）。但是金（兔髓）就非常困難了。

 

The impure soil has no ability to penetrate when it encounters a blind spot. First, it is very difficult for such a person to penetrate the plane of water and fire. Second, it is very difficult for such a person to penetrate the layers of illusion. The illusion is one of the phenomena that must be passed through to reach the rabbit marrow. There are two main types of illusions, one is the false void. This false void is caused by not letting go of the projection of consciousness. The other is to treat the moving images of the brain as real. For example, as the soul out of the body.

 

不清淨的土，遇到盲點，是完全沒有穿透的能力的。第一，這樣的人很難穿透水和火的層次。第二，這樣的人很難穿透幻境的層次。而幻境是到達兔髓必經的現象之一。幻境主要有兩種，一種就是假的空境。這種假的空境是對於意識投射沒有鬆開所導致的。另外一種就是把大腦的活動影像當成是真的。例如當作是靈魂出體。

 

Personally, when I meet this kind of person, I avoid him. Because such a person cannot communicate. For someone like me who has cultivated to a relatively deep level, it is impossible to teach postures step by step, or teach how to breathe. What I teach is how to face obstacles in evolution. Such teaching is almost entirely impossible if one does not have an inner conscience.

 

就我自己而言，當我遇到這種人，我會避開他。因為這種人是無法溝通的。像我這種修煉到比較深層次的人，不可能會去一個步驟一個步驟的教姿勢，或者教如何呼吸。我教的都是如何面對演化當中的障礙。如果一個人沒有內在的良知，這種教學幾乎是完全無法進行的。

 

There is an obvious problem when discussing these issues like we are here. Obviously, most of the people here are not practitioners, but regard Qigong practice as a kind of exercise similar to a gym. So the level of cultivation of these people is stuck at the superficial level of water and fire. The problem is that these superficial things are exaggerated by these people in order to attract more curious students. In the process of exaggerating, these people use the term alchemy. But the content is seriously distorted. Therefore, a paradoxical problem arises.

So when you are asking these questions, you need to know what kind of person you are dealing with.

 

像我們在這裡討論這些議題就會遇到一個很明顯的問題。這裡的人顯然大部分都不是修行者，而是把氣功修煉當成類似健身房的一種運動而已。所以這些人修煉的層次都是卡在水和火的表面層次。問題是這些表面層次的東西被這些人加以誇大，藉以吸引更多的好奇學生。在誇大的過程中，這些人會使用煉金術的名詞。但是內容卻是被嚴重扭曲的。因此就造成似是而非的問題。

所以當你在問這些問題的時候，你要知道，你面對的是哪一種人。

 

When a person's land is not pure, and a practitioner who focuses on practicing pure land, the two people's words will not be the same.

 

當一個人的土不清淨，和一個以練清淨土為主的修行者，兩個人說出來的話是不會一樣的。

 

In my own teaching experience, if the inner conscience is blind, no matter how I teach him, he will not be trained deeply. Such people will naturally be attracted by superficial vanity, but cannot see the deeper evolution of Tao.

 

我自己的教學經驗，內在的良知如果是盲目的，不管怎麼教他，都是練不深的。這樣的人自然而然就會被表面的虛榮心所吸引，而看不見更深的道的演化。

 

So your question is whether morality and ethics are important to cultivation. Of course it is important. Especially the inner conscience. Wang Yangming, for example, put forward the idea of "promoting conscience and uniting knowledge and action".

Without inner conscience and awareness, it is impossible to enter the Tao.

 

所以你的問題是道德倫理對修煉是否重要。當然重要。特別是內在的良知。像王陽明就提出『致良知，知行合一』。

沒有內在的良知與覺察，是無法入道的。

Edited December 24, 2022 by awaken

[MetaDao]

3 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Does embodying the correct ethical qualities increase a student's probability for success (all other things being equal)?

For sure. Aligned with the compass, you have straight shot directly to immortality.

Edited December 24, 2022 by MetaDao

[DynamicEquilibrium]

6 hours ago, freeform said:

Overconsumption affects a deeper aspect of us - and that causes us to lose our spiritual connection. That’s the real issue from my pov.

 

🙇🏻

 

So many things constantly weakening our Self-control and reasoning abilities, the manual pilot mode.

 

Weak Self-control and reasoning abilities make very poor ways of living and personnal ethics in my opinion.

 

I'm still not sure any kind of human invented remote control could help to re-establish such lost connection from which could arise "Natural ethics" with the positive changes in real life behaviours towards others, other Lives and the conduct fitting with the lineage's framework this connection could possibly bring. 

 

Here we surely have experience in systems working differently, thank you for the welcomed point of view, it helps me to get a broader picture.  

 

In all cases, switching from automatic to manual pilot mode with spirit in the captain seat was never as easy as hitting the submit reply button 😁

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, DynamicEquilibrium said:

"Natural ethics"

This is definitely a thing in Daoism - known as De (or virtue)… as in Dao De Jing.

 

Superior virtue is known to be ‘spontaneous’ in that it’s not contrived by the mind - instead it’s something that arises naturally from a very deep aspect of ourselves… to achieve superior virtue is considered to be a very difficult accomplishment indeed…

 

Until then we’re advised to use the inferior contrived (or externally/mentally imposed) virtue - even though it’s very much inferior, it’s just better than base animal instincts…

 

It’s the base animal instincts that consumerism plays on (‘sex sells’… but so does pleasurable food… status… and power over others)… the classic ‘base desires’. The ‘automatic pilot’ for most people.

[Wilhelm]

12 minutes ago, freeform said:

Superior virtue is known to be ‘spontaneous’ in that it’s not contrived by the mind - instead it’s something that arises naturally from a very deep aspect of ourselves… to achieve superior virtue is considered to be a very difficult accomplishment indeed…

Given the supposed Wu Xing correspondences with the De, is superior virtue said to arise when a certain level of harmonisation is reached?

[freeform]

1 minute ago, Wilhelm said:

is superior virtue said to arise when a certain level of harmonisation is reached?

Yeah - it depends what you mean by harmonisation really…

 

It’s not the basic level of qi harmonisation - it works at a deeper level.

 

But there’s definitely a mechanistic aspect to these things too… it’s said that as each virtue arises, so do various ‘siddhi-like’ signs…

 

But this is way beyond where I’m at… I’m still very much a contrived pleb with all this