Interview with Adam Mizner

[anshino23]

Quite enjoyed this one… 

 

 

Hope you do too.  

[Apech]

I listened to this last night.  He says a lot of good things but also some wrong things - not sure if this is just an attempt to be edgy or something.  Reminded me a bit of Damo and i find out they are friends.

 

 

[anshino23]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

I listened to this last night.  He says a lot of good things but also some wrong things - not sure if this is just an attempt to be edgy or something.  Reminded me a bit of Damo and i find out they are friends.

 

 

Can you share a bit about what you found wrong? 

[freeform]

I thought this was a very good interview. He’s very good at knowing when to listen and when to direct the conversation.

 

At one point Adam starts talking about entry into Jhanna - for me that was a very nicely succinct description of ‘turning the light around’ - as I’ve been taught it… something we were discussing a while back here  

[anshino23]

8 hours ago, freeform said:

At one point Adam starts talking about entry into Jhanna - for me that was a very nicely succinct description of ‘turning the light around’ - as I’ve been taught it… something we were discussing a while back here  

 

Many of the things he said was similar to what my Buddhist friend told me back in the day. Especially the emphasis on jhana that leads to wisdom. Not sure why it's so controversial. 

 

There’s no jhāna for one without wisdom;

No wisdom for one without jhāna.

But for one with both jhāna and wisdom,

Nibbana truly is near.

 

— The Buddha, Dhammapada 372

[Apech]

12 hours ago, anshino23 said:

Can you share a bit about what you found wrong? 

 

He seemed to be equating visualisation with fantasy, which it is not.  Also he seemed to think that mahamudra/dzogchen is the same as basic jhana, which it is not.  I don't mind that he has formed this view and it didn't detract particularly from the whole interview which was basically very interesting.  But I suspect that he was deliberately being edgy which again I don't mind - but being edgy and wrong is not helpful.

[anshino23]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

He seemed to be equating visualisation with fantasy, which it is not.  Also he seemed to think that mahamudra/dzogchen is the same as basic jhana, which it is not.  I don't mind that he has formed this view and it didn't detract particularly from the whole interview which was basically very interesting.  But I suspect that he was deliberately being edgy which again I don't mind - but being edgy and wrong is not helpful.

 

Thank you for sharing  

 

I don't know if you had a chance to listen to this interview here below with Asa Hershoff with Damo Mitchell. Asa was a student of Vajrayana Buddhism basically his entire life and also underwent the full training of a Tibetan Lama and took a 3 year 3 month meditation retreat as guided by the masters of the lineage.

 

Now what is most fascinating about his experiences and description - is that despite learning the very traditional methods of visualization and so forth - he recounts that basically it has lost most of its true power - because their methods of energy generation have either been lost (or simply just become so secret that they're basically inaccessible to Westerners trying to learn within a Tibetan tradition) and without the power - the visualization will not truly come "alive". I personally found his description of Vajrayana, if his experience is in any way reflective of reality, to show Vajrayana in a very sorry state of affairs... 

 

 

In any case, in terms of your understanding, can you share a bit more about what your experience is with visualization and how it is not related to imagination (or "fantasy")? And can you perhaps share a bit more about your experience with Mahamudra or Dzogchen? 

 

Thank you - appreciate your sharing  

Edited January 1, 2023 by anshino23

[Apech]

@anshino23,

 

Hi, no I haven't watched that vid.  I used to be a bit of a Damo fan (I even did a Q&A written interview with him which was on here at one time - do we still have an interview section? - can't remember) but I noticed on his guru viking interview a restlessness to his energy which puzzled me.   I'll watch this one later and reflect on it. Adam Mizner has a much stiller energy.

 

There's a host of problems with vajrayana (Tibetan Buddhism mostly) - some of them come from the western practitioners, some from the failure of the lamas to adjust to the west and westerners and some inherent.  The idea of the vajrayana being an almost public practice might have worked in Tibet (and Bhutan etc.) which was a closed society - but in the west and on the internet well basically no it doesn't really.  I saw a documentary once about four people who did the 3 year retreat thingy and one of them on finishing said he 'felt a little less angry' because of the practice.  If that was the case he might as well have taken up a simple hobby like needlework  .  Many are called but few are chosen.

 

I think that you should only mainstream a system or practice if you have a strong karmic connection.  It took years (more than 20) for me to decide to take refuge and embark on buddhadharma.  I was a freelance mystic for far too long perhaps.  Even then I found after about 7 years that I had to wind it all back to the beginning, study very hard, practice very hard, to build anything worth having.  I stay clear of dharma centres and sanghas because they are full of people who like to sit and think about compassion and then behave like bitches  .  But if you put the work in you get results.  The benefit of the dharma is that as you put effort in, it comes from the other side and gives you more - merit and wisdom.  In other words it is a living system.

 

The experience I have with visualisations is in the context of sadhana practice or yidam practice.  It is part of the sadhana, the development or generation stage and completion stage.  The understanding is that the yidam is an expression of actual reality (dharmakaya) so at some point the image that you visualise and the actual wisdom aspect of the yidam are merged.  Visualisation of the form of the yidam places it as 'appearance' or the self luminous attribute of consciousness, then taking onto yourself and seeing yourself as not different to the yidam activates the energy system of your body, then dissolving it allows you to settle in sunyata easily, then at the end you bring it out again to link into the 'ordinary world'.  So in a sense it is like a birth, death, rebirth cycle which ultimately allows you unite the luminous and empty 'sides' of yourself.

 

I have done a reasonable amount of qi gong and neidan and am reasonably energy aware - not making any great claims here  - but I would say that there is an additional dimension to tantra.  I would struggle to explain exactly what that is.

 

I don't know if that answers your questions or not.  But there you go. 

 

[Neirong]

2 hours ago, anshino23 said:

if his experience is in any way reflective of reality, to show Vajrayana in a very sorry state of affairs... 

There isn't a tradition in this world in a more sorry state than Daoism.
First, they were destroyed and hunted down in China without the ability to do anything. It turns out an ability to electrocute on touch or burn napkins that masters had is useless versus guns and authorities.
Now with "popular teachers in the west" praising Andrew Tate's persona and actively building an identical personality cult based on self, ego jerking, showcasing luxury, lavish lifestyle, and all those great spiritual values.



It is hard to imagine how low you must be in spiritual development to drink whiskey and smoke cigars on public podcasts for tens of thousands of gullible followers. Alright, you are a weak untrained individual with strong addictions to strong drugs but don't spread this publicly.
 

The whole podcast approach seems obvious to invite preferably white males, subservient, weak beings, or close friends that will not question and will rather boost the authority of Damien.
Can you imagine any real Buddhist Monk coming to a podcast where this guy is smoking and drinking?
More so, with a history of disgust and unmasked contempt towards Buddhism, Daoism religions, and ancient culture from Damien.
He will not be tolerated in any authentic spiritual circles.

And Yes, Damien Mitchell/Adam Mizner are much worse than Mantak Chia (An achievement marked).
 

 

2 hours ago, anshino23 said:

he recounts that basically it has lost most of its true power - because their methods of energy generation have either been lost (or simply just become so secret that they're basically inaccessible to Westerners trying to learn within a Tibetan tradition) and without the power - the visualization will not truly come "alive"

Nothing has been lost with Visualization. Surely, it may sound different when you listen to losers who cannot do it themselves due to weak minds and mental development.
 

The answer to difficult questions is often more simple than it seems.
If you are stuck at a dead end without any siddhi or spiritual development, it may be because that is the path you have chosen. Dead end with no progression beyond reciting fantasies of immortality, spirituality, and neidan while gobbling down whiskey, and cigars and coping hard on Instagram posts.

[liminal_luke]

7 minutes ago, Neirong said:

It is hard to imagine how low you must be in spiritual development to drink whiskey and smoke cigars on public podcasts for tens of thousands of gullible followers.
 

 

There's something about these fellas that doesn't resonate with me, perhaps a certain bro vibe, a vibe that makes me feel like I'm back in high school trying, unsuccessfully, to fit in with jocks and shop kids.  That's just me though.  I don't think there's an inherent contradiction between spiritual accomplishment and smoking the occasional good cigar.  

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Neirong said:

There isn't a tradition in this world in a more sorry state than Daoism.

 

Yes there are

 

• Western Magick,  which is more or less, essentially impotent (So much so, you yourself had to pilfer Daoist methods on your program, because you lack actual Western Methods). Anyone I know who can demo anything real from this line, had to develop energy elsewhere. The methods are not there. though you are welcome to try and argue they are

 

• Tibetan Buddhism - There are 40 year practitioners coming out speaking about the sorry state its in. Sexual deviance left, right and center. Dozens and dozens imagining results. The very few people I know with actual achievements related to TB, would tell you visualization is not required. You know, people with actual ability, not those who like to wax verbal

 

• Theravada Buddhism - A fair portion of this was either, lost after it was transformed and changed around the Thai Reform (It still exists in pockets, and I know this for a fact and have actual insight on the matter). There are other places where what some would say the original teachings exist, and there are also regional variations  But it isnt in the state it was pre-reform.
•  
• The innumerable Indian traditions that have become corrupted. I'm not even going to get started

 

I could go on, and on, and on, and on. All of the traditions are in trouble in one way or another, be it from threat of corruption, extinction or even defilement 

 

 

Quote

Now with "popular teachers in the west" praising Andrew Tate's persona and actively building an identical personality cult based on self, ego jerking, showcasing luxury, lavish lifestyle, and all those great spiritual values.

 

 

As regards Andrew Tate. Is he a great success?

 

Yes (in his respective area) Pretty sure the goal of an influencer is to be wealthy and amass followers

 

Is he a great person? There is nothing in that post to suggest he is praising him personally

 

So, how low one does one have to be spiritually, or rather even on the intelligence scale, not to be able to make that distinction?

 

Id be interested to hear your take on that, friend  

 

Quote

 

It is hard to imagine how low you must be in spiritual development to drink whiskey and smoke cigars on public podcasts for tens of thousands of gullible followers. Alright, you are a weak untrained individual with strong addictions to strong drugs but don't spread this publicly.

 

 

Well not really.

 

Judging someone because they are able to engage in an activity free from the usual clinging's that most of the population suffer with when engaging in said activities...thats pretty low

 

Your view is spirituality is muddied with distorted views tied to religious dogma. They hold no basis in reality

 

No person I know of attainment (Including my Buddhist teacher) would hold such a view

 

And they dont drink, or smoke. 

 

 

Quote

 

The whole podcast approach seems obvious to invite preferably white males, subservient, weak beings, or close friends that will not question and will rather boost the authority of Damien.

 

White males? Have you got some sort of racial issue here?

 

FYI both of those have plenty of students from all over.

 

Quote

Can you imagine any real Buddhist Monk coming to a podcast where this guy is smoking and drinking?

 

What does monk have to do with it? Or should all people be recluses? You realise its far more difficult to be in the world and progress, than to withdraw from it and progress

 

The reasons monks can progress faster is because they don't have the challenges of the real world

 

Taking your ball and going home, in most cases (but not all of course),  I'm sorry to tell you. is  often a way to serve yourself primarily. 

 

A Poor example

 

Quote

More so, with a history of disgust and unmasked contempt towards Buddhism, Daoism religions, and ancient culture from Damien.

 

Are you saying there's a problem with a contempt for organizational institutional dogmatism?

 

Quote

He will not be tolerated in any authentic spiritual circles.

 

 

He's pretty well tolerated from what I can see. Given his history (history you lack knowledge of, and therefore cant speak about)

 

Quote

And Yes, Damien Mitchell/Adam Mizner are much worse than Mantak Chia (An achievement marked).
 

 

Nothing has been lost with Visualization. Surely, it may sound different when you listen to losers who cannot do it themselves due to weak minds and mental development.

 

Yes it has. it is basically confusion of cause and effect (amongst other things)

 

Like Adam said, if you want imaginary results, practice imagination

 

Of course, for all your criticisms, you could arrive up on Damo's or Adams doorstep and check them out. But you wont, because you know if you do, that insulated, distorted perception of things you cling to will be quickly changed.

 

But hey, keep shouting from the corners of the internet, where you are complaining about teachers trying to help people, and have the gall to try and charge someone thousands for access to a server, and diluted methods

 

Quote

The answer to difficult questions is often more simple than it seems.

 

Lets test that theory

 

Here is a difficult question : Should one trust Neirong's opinion on these two?

 

Here is a simple answer

 

Perhaps its not the wisest move to trust someone , when they have actually made it a mission of theirs to constantly falsely represent a person they dislike, in this case deliberately trying to distort another's means of comprehending a sentence correctly.

 

Well, at least we agree on one thing

 

Quote

If you are stuck at a dead end without any siddhi or spiritual development, it may be because that is the path you have chosen.

 

For all your talk,  there's not one drop of substance from your side. How very telling

 

There's a terrible tone of jealousy off your posts

 

Perhaps because your discord server isn't going according to plan?

 

Maybe its because your attempt at a similar platform of a YouTube video series didnt take off (the Magus talks) 

 

But for someone like yourself, who literally does nothing but complain, moan about others and attempt to discredit them to claim any level of attainment or spiritual development at all, is quite honestly laughable

 

I know this because you lack the basic signs of it  

Edited January 1, 2023 by Shadow_self

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, Neirong said:

 

Anybody signed up for your $3000 discord channel yet?

[searcher7977]

1 hour ago, Neirong said:

There isn't a tradition in this world in a more sorry state than Daoism.
First, they were destroyed and hunted down in China without the ability to do anything. It turns out an ability to electrocute on touch or burn napkins that masters had is useless versus guns and authorities.
Now with "popular teachers in the west" praising Andrew Tate's persona and actively building an identical personality cult based on self, ego jerking, showcasing luxury, lavish lifestyle, and all those great spiritual values.



 

 

I have a very strong dislike for Tate, his followers, and anyone who parrots his ridiculousness. It is surprising (to me) that Damo Mitchell is defending him. It is quite easy, with any small amount of logic, knowledge, or awareness, to see through the mundane BS Tate provides. Can you tell me where Damo posted this? 

 

Also, thank you for posting this. Perhaps you have been right about him all along...

[freeform]

1 minute ago, searcher7977 said:

 

I have a very strong dislike for Tate, his followers, and anyone who parrots his ridiculousness. It is surprising (to me) that Damo Mitchell is defending him. It is quite easy, with any small amount of logic, knowledge, or awareness, to see through the mundane BS Tate provides. Can you tell me where Damo posted this? 

 

Also, thank you for posting this. Perhaps you have been right about him all along...

In a classic act of propaganda, he took a snippet out of context to help tar his competition.

 

Damo has posted about not agreeing with Tate… also laughing at the slick burn he received from Thunberg.

 

He also says that just coz you don’t agree with someone you shouldn’t be hateful towards them… and that it’s healthy to be subjected to views completely counter to your own… with Tate as an example

[Taoist Texts]

These two and their ilk had a very specific use for me personally. It does not matter if they are high or low level. What is important is that I know which level they are at. And when someone both claims a secret authentic lineage AND praises these two gents - I immediately know which level the claimant AND his lineage is. Very useful.

[Wilhelm]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

@anshino23

Thanks for fleshing that out.  Varajyana is foreign to me and its nice to hear a nuanced perspective based in experience.  I'd be interested to hear what you thought abouto Asa's criticisms if you get around to watching it (the central one being that he didn't see a method in the tradition that built the oomph needed to make many of higher level practices effective to a high degree).

 

I had thought this was the purpose of Tummo, but tbh I know next to nothing about that either.

[searcher7977]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

In a classic act of propaganda, he took a snippet out of context to help tar his competition.

 

Damo has posted about not agreeing with Tate… also laughing at the slick burn he received from Thunberg.

 

He also says that just coz you don’t agree with someone you shouldn’t be hateful towards them… and that it’s healthy to be subjected to views completely counter to your own… with Tate as an example

 

Ah okay lol. That makes a bit more sense, although still a bit sus. Thank you freeform!

 

My aversion to Tate and that side of politics is a personal sticking point of mine. I will forever remember Shinzen Young's "trigger practice" where, for those people who think they are already calm and collected, he suggests practicing equanimity with the news channel for the "opposing side" (however your views are). 

 

 

[Wilhelm]

2 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

These two and their ilk had a very specific use for me personally. It does not matter if they are high or low level. What is important is that I know which level they are at. And when someone both claims a secret authentic lineage AND praises these two gents - I immediately know which level the claimant AND his lineage is. Very useful.

Could you share what level they're at?

[Shadow_self]

1 minute ago, Wilhelm said:

Thanks for fleshing that out.  Varajyana is foreign to me and its nice to hear a nuanced perspective based in experience.  I'd be interested to hear what you thought abouto Asa's criticisms if you get around to watching it (the central one being that he didn't see a method in the tradition that built the oomph needed to make many of higher level practices effective to a high degree).

 

I had thought this was the purpose of Tummo, but tbh I know next to nothing about that either.

 

There are standing practices (amongst other things) in TB and whatnot, but the amount of people I know that know these, I could count on one  hand and still not use all the fingers

 

Says enough really....

[Apech]

Just now, Wilhelm said:

Thanks for fleshing that out.  Varajyana is foreign to me and its nice to hear a nuanced perspective based in experience.  I'd be interested to hear what you thought abouto Asa's criticisms if you get around to watching it (the central one being that he didn't see a method in the tradition that built the oomph needed to make many of higher level practices effective to a high degree).

 

I had thought this was the purpose of Tummo, but tbh I know next to nothing about that either.

 

Dear Wilhelm,

 

I tried to watch the interview but only managed 25 mins or so.  My natural English politeness and good manners coupled with my Buddhist vow to sincerely wish for the benefit of all sentient beings prevent me from saying what a dick that man, Asa, is.

 

 

[Wilhelm]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

Yeah fair enough haha - I think I got the central idea across half decent though.  Is Tummo what generates the 'fuel' for the more sublime practices in Varajyana?

[Shadow_self]

4 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Could you share what level they're at?

 

Depends, what book and what page number is that written on?  

[freeform]

Adam’s Buddhist teacher:

[freeform]

I hope seeing his image may change the trajectory of this conversation 🙏🏼

[Taoist Texts]

38 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Could you share what level they're at?

Publicly I would rather not because it will be perceived as a personal attack. But I would enjoy a discussion on what a "level" even is.