Interview with Adam Mizner

[Taoist Texts]

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

do you think there is another component to it?

of course. All these activities that you listed earlier are not skills per se. They are entertainment (infotainment, edutainment). And the dynamic duo in question are entertainers.   Their teaching produces  the same useful product as a medieval reenactment fair or any other pretend activity like a dude ranch or D&D. In a technical parlance what they do and sell is role playing. Thats their sole product and utility.

 

55 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

it does produce something (You said it didnt)

yes i did. of course it produces a lot of hot air and entropy and  misundefrstanding;  but it does not produce any product . 

[Master Logray]

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

of course. All these activities that you listed earlier are not skills per se. They are entertainment (infotainment, edutainment). And the dynamic duo in question are entertainers.   Their teaching produces  the same useful product as a medieval reenactment fair or any other pretend activity like a dude ranch or D&D. In a technical parlance what they do and sell is role playing. Thats their sole product and utility.

 

yes i did. of course it produces a lot of hot air and entropy and  misundefrstanding;  but it does not produce any product . 

 

Whatever these things are, they are at least products.   They are sold over the centuries and many people survive by that.

[doc benway]

5 hours ago, Barnaby said:

 

I'm curious to know what you mean by lineage here.

 

Whether you're referring to lineage in its traditional semi-supernatural sense, or simply as a corpus of knowledge...?

 

It seems to me that the Western teachers who are honest all admit that they have drunk at many wells.

 

So where does that leave the traditional concept of lineage (outside the religious/monastic traditions)?

 

Does it no longer exist in any meaningful sense? Or has it been resynthesized into untried amalgams, with unpredictable karmic effects? 

 

A few unsolicited words about lineage. Geof will need to answer these questions, of course, but I want to share some thoughts FWIW. There is no need to posit anything even remotely supernatural regarding lineage and yet it is far more than simply a corpus of knowledge. In my experience, lineage plays an important role in experiential practices. In dealing with experiential practices, it is one thing to gain knowledge and another altogether to gain skill and to be assured that one has understood and integrated knowledge and technique to such a degree that it can be expressed effectively. It is easy to describe a taiji technique or meditation practice for someone. Totally different to make sure they know how to practice properly and actually become proficient. On top of that, how to know they have the capacity to pass it along in turn to others correctly. Lineage insures that the material is not only passed along but passed along in a way that insures accuracy, efficacy, and preservation of the original intent.

 

This has been an interesting discussion. I find that I learn far more about those posting than I do about Adam Mizner and Damo Mitchell. That's generally the way of things here for me. I learn more about members, including myself, through our posts than I learn about whatever the subject matter may be. There are exceptions of course but not many.

 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Neirong said:

 

Imagine

 

Lets imagine you had the very good manners to respond to the last post I made answering you

 

 

We can address the rest after  

[Shadow_self]

21 hours ago, freeform said:

I find it fascinating that rather than talking about our experience, and discussing what they talk about, we tend to prefer talking about our knee-jerk reactions about them.

 

It is probably because the vast majority of people in this thread have no actual experience with them.

 

So there is nothing else to go on but what they see in front of them  

 

 

59 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

of course. All these activities that you listed earlier are not skills per se. They are entertainment (infotainment, edutainment). And the dynamic duo in question are entertainers.   Their teaching produces  the same useful product as a medieval reenactment fair or any other pretend activity like a dude ranch or D&D. In a technical parlance what they do and sell is role playing. Thats their sole product and utility. 

 

Yes i did. of course it produces a lot of hot air and entropy and  misundefrstanding;  but it does not produce any product . 

Well you literally just said it can produce relaxation, so you are contradicting yourself now

 

It is interesting that you continue to espouse opinions, yet provide nothing in the way of evidence to substantiate said opinions

 

If this is going to be your manner of discussion, its probably not going to go anywhere useful  

[freeform]

7 minutes ago, steve said:

This has been an interesting discussion. I find that I learn far more about those posting than I do about Adam Mizner and Damo Mitchell.

Yup. 
 

Well expressed.

 

 

I have to say it’s ‘discussions’ like these that make me wanna step away from this place.

 

It’s not even that this whole “look at me and my strong opinions about people I’ve never met” is not the least bit constructive - but more than anything it’s just so boring! 
 

It’s like the most junk form of discussion possible.

 

 

I had a go at steering it towards stuff that’s actually been discussed in the interview (which was pretty interesting - whether you like the guy or not) - but no… we rather make it into a trivial melodrama 

[Shadow_self]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yup. 
 

Well expressed.

 

 

I have to say it’s ‘discussions’ like these that make me wanna step away from this place.

 

It’s not even that this whole “look at me and my strong opinions about people I’ve never met” is not the least bit constructive - but more than anything it’s just so boring! 
 

It’s like the most junk form of discussion possible.

 

 

I had a go at steering it towards stuff that’s actually been discussed in the interview (which was pretty interesting - whether you like the guy or not) - but no… we rather make it into a trivial melodrama 

 

Here's a personal opinion on it

 

There's very little to attack in the way of what they are actually saying you see. Its all pretty logical and straightforward really

 

When that happens, its easier to attack their character, or an outward expression of behaviour (regardless of whether one understands the underlying motives or not)

 

The visualization problem is a big big trigger for people. I imagine this coupled with the joking about sexual practices is what upsets folk. Adam rolled it all up into one neat little package in my opinion. To paraphrase him,  these things are very real, and with the right practices you will experience them.

 

If you want to have imaginary results, go practice with your imagination

 

Why work hard when you can just sit and imagine your way along the path?

Wait, you mean I cant orgasm my way to awakening? How dare you!

People sell this nonsense by the bucketload, and then others invest their time and energy in it, thinking they are actually getting somewhere. Suddenly, someone who's actually gotten somewhere comes along and either bursts their bubble, causes cognitive dissonance or forces them to go into offended mode

 

It is rather sad. But someone people just wont be told.

 

That's fine. It is ok to believe what you want. With the right practice, belief isn't required

 

You'll experience it for yourself and wont have any doubt at all

[Barnaby]

40 minutes ago, steve said:

A few unsolicited words about lineage.

 

Thanks, much appreciated.

 

41 minutes ago, steve said:

Lineage insures that the material is not only passed along but passed along in a way that insures accuracy, efficacy, and preservation of the original intent.

 

I see exactly what you mean. And that is part of what I was getting at. When what is being passed along is a mix-and-match, where does that leave the concept of lineage?

 

46 minutes ago, steve said:

This has been an interesting discussion.

 

I couldn't agree more. That's the thing I appreciate here. Whatever the initial subject of discussion, it's the ensuing conversation that leaves me with something I can learn from 

[Taoist Texts]

51 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Well you literally just said it can produce relaxation, so you are contradicting yourself now

sorry perhaps i was not clear. let me repeat myself: i do not consider relaxation a skill nor a product.

56 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

yet provide nothing in the way of evidence to substantiate said opinions

my  opinion is that these people have no skills. to substantiate my opinion i asked you to specify their skills. you said it is relaxation. i said relaxation is not a skill. thats it. lets agree to disagree. thank you very much for your valuable input;)

2 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Whatever these things are, they are at least products.  

see what i mean? this is so amusing. nobody can name these things. what things? do they have a name?

[doc benway]

45 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

I see exactly what you mean. And that is part of what I was getting at. When what is being passed along is a mix-and-match, where does that leave the concept of lineage?

 

My own bias is that when practices and teachings are being mixed, the value of lineage is diminished. 

For lineage to have value the teachings must be precise and as pure as possible.

I'm not saying there is no value to a mix and match approach, it may be just what the right student needs.

On the other hand, it does not have the authenticity, credibility, and confidence inspired by receiving teachings from a lineage holder for me. 

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

I have to say it’s ‘discussions’ like these that make me wanna step away from this place.

 

I hope you stay and simply steer clear of such "discussions."

Your contributions here are valuable and appreciated. 

 

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

 

It’s like the most junk form of discussion possible.

As Bill Bullard says... 

 

[Shadow_self]

45 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

sorry perhaps i was not clear. let me repeat myself: i do not consider relaxation a skill nor a product.

Well the I suggest you look back over the discussion because I never said it was a skill,

 

and it definitely is a product by definition

 

45 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

my  opinion is that these people have no skills.

 

to substantiate my opinion i asked you to specify their skills. you said it is relaxation.

 

Hold on a minute, If you're going to engage, then engage honestly.

 

I said "an" outcome (product) of Tai Chi can be relaxation.  I didnt say it was the only one, and Im not about to do a long back and fowards about the others. You said it generated nothing, I said it could generate relaxation as an outcome, you agreed.

 

The argument then changed (by moving the goalposts) where you stated #1 there were other ways to relax and #2 you didnt think it was useful.

 

But neither of those are related to the point of whether or not Tai Chi can generate an outcome

 

Tai Chi can have relaxation as an outcome (by your own admission). So we dont really need to take it further

 

Now regards skills. I said no such thing

 

I told you if you wanted to assess their skill in all the arts I mentioned, you may either go on the testimony of their students (which I don't think you should) Spend some time with the practices they teach (a good idea) or check them out in person (Recommended)

 

So please don't misrepresent me, it comes across as somewhat dishonest.

 

Others might find the verbal contortionism humorous, but I really don't

 

45 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i said relaxation is not a skill.

Which really does not having anything to do with it, because nobody said it was

 

45 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

lets agree to disagree. thank you very much for your valuable input;)

Sure    Likewise

[Wilhelm]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

It’s like the most junk form of discussion possible.

Well said!  More and more I'm letting myself get caught up in mixed intentions, passive aggression, and unsubstantiated opinions.  Now I have a strong suspicion that this isn't reflective of my true character any more than it is anyone else's, so I'm gonna take a week off to try to get that in my head

 

Probably gonna rewatch the interview in the meantime.  I found hearing about the sort of intensity with which he approached his arts incredibly inspiring (never mind the story of his teacher.  I can't remember hearing anything like that before).

 

Less talk, more pursuit of Zhong Ding!  Catch you guys next week.

[Geof Nanto]

10 hours ago, Barnaby said:

 

I'm curious to know what you mean by lineage here.

 

Whether you're referring to lineage in its traditional semi-supernatural sense, or simply as a corpus of knowledge...?

 

It seems to me that the Western teachers who are honest all admit that they have drunk at many wells.

 

So where does that leave the traditional concept of lineage (outside the religious/monastic traditions)?

 

Does it no longer exist in any meaningful sense? Or has it been resynthesized into untried amalgams, with unpredictable karmic effects? 

 

Those are all good questions but no way am I going to do my head in by trying to articulate all I think and feel about them. In any case, the fact that you are thinking about lineage to the depth that your questions show, tells me your more than capable of finding your own answers. 

 

Edit to add: Here’s an extract from a previous post of mine which may give you some insight into my own experiences: 

 

Quote

The obvious difference between these two experiences is that the first one was about connection with an ancestral human reality, whereas the other one was about total disconnection from anything humanly shaped. These and many other experiences have taught me that appropriate connections are absolutely vital for anyone on a spiritual path. And meaningful, human shaped connections the most fundamentally essential of all. Isolation is deadly. The great mystery traditions of the world’s religions have built pathways into the invisible realms, given it shape and human friendly forms; given our human minds intuitions and images that allow the divine realms to convey to us a glimpse of their awesome wisdom.  I need this, yet how I work with it is fluid, always evolving, individually shaped. I’ve never felt entirely at home within any single tradition. For many of us, a key result of personal cultivation is that we’re able to feel increasingly subtle levels of connection within the invisible world and hence able to roam deeper and deeper in our own individual ways.

 

From:  https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/48536-an-awakening-through-living-in-the-wilderness/?do=findComment&comment=909023

 

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Geof Nanto

[Vajra Fist]

I have a great deal of respect for Adam Mizner and I enjoyed the interview.

 

I found myself agreeing with him on most things he said. But I have mixed feelings about him as a person.

 

Edited January 2, 2023 by Vajra Fist

[Barnaby]

15 minutes ago, Geof Nanto said:

Those are all good questions but no way am I going to do my head in by trying to articulate all I think and feel about them.

 

Ha ha!

 

Cheers Geof! 

[Geof Nanto]

Just now, Barnaby said:

 

Ha ha!

 

Cheers Geof! 

 

I've just edited that post and added to it. 

[Barnaby]

40 minutes ago, Geof Nanto said:

I've just edited that post and added to it. 

 

And I've just read the original thread you quoted.

 

Very helpful.

 

Many thanks.

[forestofclarity]

These interviews were interesting, I will say. Damo's seems like a poor effort to discredit Vajrayana generally, and is a bit self-parodying. His guest clearly has a lot of issues, and quite frankly, I feel it was unskillful to put him out there like that for marketing. The thing that boggles my mind is that anyone would take it seriously. 

 

Adam's video and criticism is actually much more nuanced and interesting, and quite frankly, not unlike criticisms I have heard from within Vajrayana (though those tend to go much further in my experience). Simply put, the common run of anything is likely to be not really that great. If I were to go to one of the hundreds of Tai Chi classes at my local recreation center, I would likely find very little of value. But this is garden variety Tai chi, just as there is garden variety Theravada and Vajrayana Buddhism. Personally, I have found that most traditions do authenticity to them, if not commonly known or practiced. 

 

One issue with merely following a teacher, however, is that one often misses the historical teachings and context. While a teacher is very important, it is also important to educate oneself on the basis of the tradition, i.e. the historical scriptures and commentaries. 

 

I would say for Adam, his meditation practice is informed by the "nirvikapla" trends within Buddhism and Yoga (he even cites the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali for example). These are practices that tend to be practiced in renunciate, monastic communities as they often require a  great deal of time and effort. However, there are also paths specifically designed for non-renunciates, which typically fall into the "savikalpa," Tantric, or Mahayana trends. In some cases, these are presented as mutually exclusive, and in others they are not. Of course, people on each side often pooh-pooh the other. 

 

Within his particular tradition (Visuddhimagga Theravada), he appears to know what he is talking about (at least in my opinion based on this interview) and is worth considering to those interested in his particular type of path. 

 

 

 

 

[blue eyed snake]

On 30-12-2022 at 9:52 PM, anshino23 said:

Hope you do too.  

 

that was interesting, thanks for posting

[anshino23]

17 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

These interviews were interesting, I will say. Damo's seems like a poor effort to discredit Vajrayana generally, and is a bit self-parodying. His guest clearly has a lot of issues, and quite frankly, I feel it was unskillful to put him out there like that for marketing. The thing that boggles my mind is that anyone would take it seriously. 

 

Can you please help elucidate what issues you saw in what Asa (the very dedicated Vajrayana practictioner who even did a 3 year mountain retreat) presented in his view of Vajrayana? 

 

I personally didn't see Asa's take as discrediting Vajrayana as much as saying that while many of its aspects hold power; there's something that's lost and that's incredibly sad - and additionally, that what is missing may only be available to the highest masters - which is related on how one can build specific types of energy which then makes many of the methods actually work as intended. Perhaps I misunderstood and you understand what Asa said very differently? If so, can you please share what you found said that was incorrect about Vajrayana? 

 

17 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

Simply put, the common run of anything is likely to be not really that great

 

Is someone who has learned directly from Kalu Rinpoche and gone on a 3 year mountain retreat part of the 'common run'? Just curious. Where can one find the 'correct' people within Vajrayana that embody the authenticity that you distinctly mention?

 

17 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

One issue with merely following a teacher, however, is that one often misses the historical teachings and context. While a teacher is very important, it is also important to educate oneself on the basis of the tradition, i.e. the historical scriptures and commentaries. 

 

So if we read and practice according to the scriptures and commentaries - then we'll be secure of delusion and find the correct way? Can you share how can we protect ourselves from delusion in such a case?

 

Just as a matter of fact - as part of a Reddit community I once browsed called stream-entry (literally), there are hundreds if not thousands of people there that think they have attained jhanas left and right as well as fruitions and stream-entry. And they've done that based on reading sutras and commentaries and picking and choosing to their liking their own interpretations. Such as siddhis are not real and everything is just describing a mental process, Qi is just bioelectricity or piloerection. You end up with the kind of soulless (pun-intended) meditation-"master" types, the likes of Sam Harris in my view.... (As a side-note, he has a whole app called Waking Up, but I doubt any authentic teacher worth his salt (my interpretation) would actually consider him awakened since he shows none of the signs of an awakened master).

[freeform]

6 hours ago, anshino23 said:

I personally didn't see Asa's take as discrediting Vajrayana 

To me he seemed to be sincerely dedicated to his path and to love his tradition - in many instances disagreeing with Damo (around the whole visualisation issue for example.)

[forestofclarity]

4 hours ago, anshino23 said:

Can you please help elucidate what issues you saw in what Asa (the very dedicated Vajrayana practictioner who even did a 3 year mountain retreat) presented in his view of Vajrayana? 

 

First of all, his overall tone, demeanor, and way of speaking made a very unfavorable impression. But I think that's for each person to consider. I will admit I also give him a strike as a homeopathist. His thoughts seemed scattered. He obviously hasn't learned that if you think you are going to say something that sounds racist, you should probably keep quiet. 

 

Getting down to brass tacks, I don't agree that tummo is necessary to make anything work, that as taught tummo doesn't work, or that development stage practice is pretending to be a deity. Tummo is, as far as I've been taught, a secondary or auxiliary practice, and necessarily so, and it is not universally practiced. As for whether it works, that is up for each person to decide if they even choose to do it (and many do not). Tibetan Buddhism is no monolith, so opinions and practices vary widely.

 

4 hours ago, anshino23 said:

Is someone who has learned directly from Kalu Rinpoche and gone on a 3 year mountain retreat part of the 'common run'? Just curious. Where can one find the 'correct' people within Vajrayana that embody the authenticity that you distinctly mention?

 

Tibetan Buddhism can be a bit of a Lama factory. Often the primary importance appears to be preserving the teachings, and accordingly there is a bit of an assembly line system for lamas. In addition, most historical texts and commentaries talk about how a realized teacher is as rare as day time stars and so on. It is not a new thing. One respected teacher recognized Steven Seagal as a tulku.  I do think there are good reasons for such an approach.

 

4 hours ago, anshino23 said:

So if we read and practice according to the scriptures and commentaries - then we'll be secure of delusion and find the correct way? Can you share how can we protect ourselves from delusion in such a case? 

 

You need discernment, and you get that by study, practice, and taking teachings. There are the traditional checks and balances of the teacher, the historical teaching, and one's experience. If a teacher does not accord with the historical teaching or your personal experience, then maybe that is not the teacher to follow. Similarly, if you disagree with the teacher and the tradition, then maybe you are in the wrong. 

 

In my experience, I have seen issues with those who practice but don't study, and those who study but don't practice. Many teachers agree. You and others may not, that's up to you.

 

One is never secure from delusion until enlightenment. I do find there is a bit of "help" available if one is looking, but that has to be discovered. 

 

5 hours ago, anshino23 said:

as part of a Reddit community I once browsed called stream-entry

 

Many of us pass through a "stream entry" stage. There are lessons to be learned from such teachers as well. If they are satisfied with their level of attainment, that's on them. Maybe that's as far as they go, maybe not. 

 

Just my opinion/imagination/impressions. I appreciate the chance to organize my thoughts. 

[freeform]

24 minutes ago, forestofemptiness said:

One respected teacher recognized Steven Seagal as a tulku. 

Oh my!

 

Maybe Asa wasn’t that wrong about the tradition losing its way?

 

But then again if Vajrayana has Steven Seagal - us Daoists have Bruce Frantzis 😅 

[Apech]

9 hours ago, freeform said:

Oh my!

 

Maybe Asa wasn’t that wrong about the tradition losing its way?

 

But then again if Vajrayana has Steven Seagal - us Daoists have Bruce Frantzis 😅 

 

Perhaps the lama was out for justice or thinking he was hard to kill, or even under siege?