Interview with Adam Mizner

[forestofclarity]

16 hours ago, freeform said:

Maybe Asa wasn’t that wrong about the tradition losing its way?

 

Only if one has a narrow view of history. 

[doc benway]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Perhaps the lama was out for justice or thinking he was hard to kill, or even under siege?

 

Some of those lamas think they’re above the law…

[EFreethought]

On 1/3/2023 at 11:24 AM, anshino23 said:

Just as a matter of fact - as part of a Reddit community I once browsed called stream-entry (literally), there are hundreds if not thousands of people there that think they have attained jhanas left and right as well as fruitions and stream-entry. And they've done that based on reading sutras and commentaries and picking and choosing to their liking their own interpretations. Such as siddhis are not real and everything is just describing a mental process, Qi is just bioelectricity or piloerection. You end up with the kind of soulless (pun-intended) meditation-"master" types, the likes of Sam Harris in my view.... (As a side-note, he has a whole app called Waking Up, but I doubt any authentic teacher worth his salt (my interpretation) would actually consider him awakened since he shows none of the signs of an awakened master).

 

At the risk of derailing this thread: What are the signs of an awakened master?

 

[Cobie]

7 minutes ago, EFreethought said:

… What are the signs of an awakened master?

 When he farts it smells like roses. 

[freeform]

7 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

 

Only if one has a narrow view of history. 

Just the very narrow slice of history where Steven Seagal is a Tulku 😅

[doc benway]

5 minutes ago, freeform said:

Just the very narrow slice of history where Steven Seagal is a Tulku 😅

 

Buddhas and Bodhisattvas can take on surprising and unexpected forms. My teacher once suggested the (somewhat unlikely) possibility that Donald Trump was a Bodhisattva! It definitely wrinkled some brows among his students!

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

Speaking of Mizner, whatever happened to his Power of Chi movie? All trace of it seems to be wiped off the internet

[freeform]

28 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Speaking of Mizner, whatever happened to his Power of Chi movie? All trace of it seems to be wiped off the internet

Found plenty of traces… YouTube clips and the website are up - but can’t seem to watch the movie itself. 
 

Seemed like a terrible idea for a film 😅
 

When you say Adam’s movie - is it actually his movie, or he’s featured in it? 

[refugeindharma]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Found plenty of traces… YouTube clips and the website are up - but can’t seem to watch the movie itself. 
 

Seemed like a terrible idea for a film 😅
 

When you say Adam’s movie - is it actually his movie, or he’s featured in it? 

 

I bought the film and lost access to it (and unfortunately didn't download it in time... so if anyone did manage to download it before it got taken down, please feel free to PM me)

 

Tried contacting the owners or whoever was distributing it through multiple channels but crickets...

 

It's not Adam's movie, he just featured in it.

 

From what I understand Adam wasn't too happy about how they were using the movie as a marketing tool to get people to sign up for an online Taiji course that was taught by some random dude.

 

Besides the above there may be other reasons as to why they took the movie offline. It credited Morgan Freeman as narrating the film but with recent clips of deep fake and AI voice generators, I am even more skeptical as to whether it was truly Morgan Freeman as a lot of what they've done thus far hasn't come across as being all that legit...

 

I thought the idea for the film wasn't that bad, at least for people who are skeptical about Tai Qi or Qi itself as they had several world class athletes touch hands with Adam, and if they're all in on this gimmick (which begs to differ why?), well then perhaps it's almost impossible to open the mind of a skeptic unless they saw or experienced something mind blowing themselves 

[doc benway]

So I'm curious, as I think some others are.

Whenever Vajrayana has been brought up, a few folks ask questions about what physical and observable changes are occurring to "prove" it works? Things like opening a hole in one's head or drying a wet blanket on the body.

Can those folks please share what observable signs they've seen in Damo, Adam, Asa, and/or themselves or other students that give them a sense of trust in these new and untested methods of cultivation?

This is a genuine question, not meant to be critical or demeaning.

Thanks

[freeform]

1 hour ago, steve said:

So I'm curious, as I think some others are.

Whenever Vajrayana has been brought up, a few folks ask questions about what physical and observable changes are occurring to "prove" it works? Things like opening a hole in one's head or drying a wet blanket on the body.

Can those folks please share what observable signs they've seen in Damo, Adam, Asa, and/or themselves or other students that give them a sense of trust in these new and untested methods of cultivation?

This is a genuine question, not meant to be critical or demeaning.

Thanks

Good question!

 

But I’m wondering about what you mean by ‘new and untested methods of cultivation’?

 

No idea about Asa… but as far as I’m aware, Adam teaches Taiji (I believe starting with Huang style and moving on to Yang style as students progress)…

 

Damo teaches Neigong and Neidan from one particular line (I believe he names his main alchemy teacher publicly). His Taiji is similar to Adam’s (Huang and Yang)… not sure about his Bagua.

 

Edit:

If you take a look at his public site, Damo has a full history - and explains what he teaches. Shen Hongxun features heavily for his early neigong stuff (some might recognise him as Dr Shen)... Ni Yuanhai, Qi Zhaoling and Chen Xiu for the Hunyuan internals... Wang Haitao taught him alchemy (and Bagua) - he also mentions Hu Xuezhi and Master Guan - as well as teachers he doesn't reveal for further training in alchemy... he mentions there that he's classically initiated into the Longmen line and that's what he teaches publicly.

 

Adam is less explicit about his training history but mentions that he's had 7 primary teachers of Yang Style Tai Chi from the Huang Sheng Shyan and Yang Shou Hou lineages and is an inner door disciple of Luang Por Jumnien who's a revered Thai forest/theravada monk and meditation master.

 

Is there some new cultivation method they teach that I’m not aware of?

Edited January 9, 2023 by freeform

[Shadow_self]

On 05/01/2023 at 12:53 AM, Pak_Satrio said:

Speaking of Mizner, whatever happened to his Power of Chi movie? All trace of it seems to be wiped off the internet

 

On 05/01/2023 at 1:34 AM, freeform said:

Found plenty of traces… YouTube clips and the website are up - but can’t seem to watch the movie itself. 
 

Seemed like a terrible idea for a film 😅
 

When you say Adam’s movie - is it actually his movie, or he’s featured in it? 

 

I seen someone recently ask Adam about that. 

 

He explained it wasn't his movie, rather, he was asked to demonstrate some things, which he did

[freeform]

28 minutes ago, freeform said:

Good question!

 

And I'm happy to mention some of the changes (that I'm allowed to talk about) that I've seen in me and some friends as a result of practice - though these are not resulting from Adam or Damo's schools (I've only met them and some of their students).

I'd just like to understand the motivation for the question first  

[Miffymog]

35 minutes ago, freeform said:

Good question!

 

But I’m wondering about what you mean by ‘new and untested methods of cultivation’?

 

No idea about Asa… but as far as I’m aware, Adam teaches Taiji (I believe starting with Huang style and moving on to Yang style as students progress)…

 

Damo teaches Neigong and Neidan from one particular line (I believe he names his main alchemy teacher publicly). His Taiji is similar to Adam’s (Huang and Yang)… not sure about his Bagua.

 

Edit:

If you take a look at his public site, he has a full history - and explains what he teaches. Shen Hongxun features heavily for his early neigong stuff (some might recognise him as Dr Shen)... Ni Yuanhai, Qi Zhaoling and Chen Xiu for the Hunyuan internals... Wang Haitao taught him alchemy (and Bagua) - he also mentions Hu Xuezhi and Master Guan - as well as teachers he doesn't reveal for further training in alchemy... he mentions there that he's classically initiated into the Longmen line and that's what he teaches publicly.

 

Adam is less explicit about his training history but mentions that he's had 7 primary teachers of Yang Style Tai Chi from the Huang Sheng Shyan and Yang Shou Hou lineages and is an inner door disciple of Luang Por Jumnien who's a revered Thai forest/theravada monk and meditation master.

 

Is there some new cultivation method they teach that I’m not aware of?

 

Ooo, hang on there.

 

Initiated or instructed in the Longnen line?

 

[Shadow_self]

38 minutes ago, steve said:

So I'm curious, as I think some others are.

Whenever Vajrayana has been brought up, a few folks ask questions about what physical and observable changes are occurring to "prove" it works? Things like opening a hole in one's head or drying a wet blanket on the body.

Can those folks please share what observable signs they've seen in Damo, Adam, Asa, and/or themselves or other students that give them a sense of trust in these new and untested methods of cultivation?

This is a genuine question, not meant to be critical or demeaning.

Thanks

 

Well the interesting thing about Damo is he doesn't use things like that as a focus for the school

 

(I have visions of people turning up with a multimeter and a team of people claiming to be "credentialed scientists" that have an extremely poor grasp on experimental methods and controls  )

 

I would tell anyone skeptical give it a few months and see what happens.  The faster you understand the core of the YJJ principles, the faster you will start to feel things really taking off.

 

Honestly I don't see anyone else teaching these things. If you see people practicing for months and struggling or making no progress, you can tell there's something they aren't being told. 

 

I cant say my experiences have been the experience of everyone. There seems to be a common set of experiences, and then others which I did not expect.  Not something I really want to post here though.

 

Its worth noting I do some other things though, that may be a factor in the last few months especially. 

 

What i will say is when I met my other teacher (Buddhist) , they were very surprised about the different things that happened me.

 

Surprised, but also impressed. 

[freeform]

5 minutes ago, Miffymog said:

Initiated or instructed in the Longnen line?

 

Initiated

[Miffymog]

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Initiated

 

Okay.

 

When he first came on the scene in the middle 2000's there was some confusion over the issue. Glad it's cleared up.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Miffymog

[Barnaby]

8 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

There seems to be a common set of experiences, and then others which I did not expect.  Not something I really want to post here though.

 

Why not? What's the problem?

[dwai]

The most significant change that matters is the practitioner's mind -- especially in the spiritual context.

 

• Is the mind clear or muddled?
• Does the mind cling to pleasure and runs way from pain?
• Does the mind attach to attainments of power?
• Is the mind equanimous?
• Is there a clear and complete recognition of True Nature, or is the recognition oscillating between clarity and obscuration (i.e., does the practitioner feel uncertain about the true nature of their being at times, or are they firmly rooted in true nature)?
• Does the identification occur with the mind-body or True Nature? 
• When reading the Daodejing or the Nei Yeh, is there a clear and direct recognition of what is being said?

 

 

[Shadow_self]

12 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

Why not? What's the problem?

 

Why not?  Because I prefer to keep some things to myself, or to a friend or two who I trust  

 

Problem? None at all  

 

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

The most significant change that matters is the practitioner's mind -- especially in the spiritual context.

 

Yup agreed with all points...

 

But there's more to this...

 

To my teachers these things you mention certainly matter. But they are not so significant if they remain only in the mind.

 

Another words, you can't claim to have mastered them if they remain purely on the level of the mind. This is the case with most genuine Daoist Neidan teachers.

 

Everything you mention in that list is conditional... meaning that if conditions are just so, most people can exhibit them... 

 

That's why for most classical Daoist teachers these mental signs do not signify true transformation... good signs, certainly - but not true transformation.

 

True accomplishment of these things always has a physical or physiological change associated with it.

 

For example:

Quote

Does the identification occur with the mind-body or True Nature?

 

There's literally a physiological sign that this is truly the case. My teacher physically checks for this. (Sadly I'm yet to pass the test!)

 

I may feel this is the case for me... but sadly the sign is not there yet - so by definition, I don't quite have it yet... maybe I've moved in the right direction - but it's not fully attained.

 

When you have it, it literally extends to the very physical makeup of your body and the functioning of your nervous system - when you don't have it... or haven't attained it completely - it remains on a mental level... maybe a very deep mental level - but just not deep enough (for my teacher).

 

Spoiler

 

So just a caveat. You've mentioned your stance on this Dwai - and I think it's helpful to most readers to mention my own stance on this...

 

But I'm not going to enter into an argument over it.

 

This is simply the view of any genuine Neidan master I've met, it's also one that I've adopted because I see its veracity.

I know your view is different, Dwai. You have some great reasons for your view - and I accept that this is a view you hold strongly.

 

Steve asked about the physically verifiable signs of transformation - this is what I'm interested in discussing more... not the validity of my view or of your competing view. We've already discussed that ad nauseam... so I'll be opting out of that particular line of discourse  

 

 

[Barnaby]

35 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Why not?  Because I prefer to keep some things to myself, or to a friend or two who I trust  

 

Problem? None at all  

 

No problem.

 

It's just that elsewhere, you said this:

 

On 1/6/2023 at 7:43 PM, Shadow_self said:

To be honest, anyone I have encountered with genuine Longmen Pai teachings, seem to have a fairly decent level of development. Definitely above that which I have seen in the Vajrayana community.

 

And this:

On 1/6/2023 at 7:43 PM, Shadow_self said:

If I was to list some of the things that have happened me since training with these methods, phew, my PM box would start rattling.

 

And this:

On 1/7/2023 at 5:43 PM, Shadow_self said:

What I meant was, what makes you feel this is more credible/proven? For example, are you seeing developments lets say from people who take on practices. Yourself, other students ? Like Tummo or Phowa as an example ? Can one dry a sheet on their body, does one have the opening on their head? Is there something less physical that's going on with your teacher?

 

My own basis of adhering to teachers and practices is based on the transformation I see within myself, the students alongside me and the ability of the teachers for example

 

Now, if no one is actually prepared to be specific about the developments they have seen in themselves and their fellow students – and, eventually, how they compare to the developments of students of other systems/traditions – I propose that we stop asserting that any system is more effective than any other.

 

Because there's no data. It's just a bunch of words with nothing to back them up. Like the self-congratulatory marketing promo that kicked this whole thing off in the first place.

 

Absent any personal testimony of concrete developments or attainments, I personally am going to chalk all of this stuff down to wishful thinking.

 

And for what it's worth, I would be perfectly happy to give an account of all the developments I experienced over the course of six year's daily "Daoist cultivation", for an average of 2 hours' training a daily, following the teachings of a well-known international teacher.

 

But that teacher isn't under discussion here, so I don't know if anyone would be interested...  

[markern]

14 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

And for what it's worth, I would be perfectly happy to give an account of all the developments I experienced over the course of six year's daily "Daoist cultivation", for an average of 2 hours' training a daily, following the teachings of a well-known international teacher.

 

But that teacher isn't under discussion here, so I don't know if anyone would be interested...  

 

I'm interested in hearing about it. Just to learn about what can happen.

Edited January 9, 2023 by markern

[Barnaby]

4 hours ago, markern said:

I'm interesting in hearing about it. Just to learn about what can happen.

 

No probs, no time now, I'll get back with that in the next few hours 

 

EDIT: I'll start a new thread, so as not to hijack this one.

 

EDIT2: On reflection, I won’t be starting that thread. I think my time is better spent practicing than contributing to debate on the internet.

Edited January 9, 2023 by Barnaby

[MIchael80]

29 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

Yup agreed with all points...

 

But there's more to this...

 

To my teachers these things you mention certainly matter. But they are not so significant if they remain only in the mind.

 

Another words, you can't claim to have mastered them if they remain purely on the level of the mind. This is the case with most genuine Daoist Neidan teachers.

 

Everything you mention in that list is conditional... meaning that if conditions are just so, most people can exhibit them... 

 

That's why for most classical Daoist teachers these mental signs do not signify true transformation... good signs, certainly - but not true transformation.

 

True accomplishment of these things always has a physical or physiological change associated with it.

 

For example:

 

There's literally a physiological sign that this is truly the case. My teacher physically checks for this. (Sadly I'm yet to pass the test!)

 

I may feel this is the case for me... but sadly the sign is not there yet - so by definition, I don't quite have it yet... maybe I've moved in the right direction - but it's not fully attained.

 

When you have it, it literally extends to the very physical makeup of your body and the functioning of your nervous system - when you don't have it... or haven't attained it completely - it remains on a mental level... maybe a very deep mental level - but just not deep enough (for my teacher).

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

So just a caveat. You've mentioned your stance on this Dwai - and I think it's helpful to most readers to mention my own stance on this...

 

But I'm not going to enter into an argument over it.

 

This is simply the view of any genuine Neidan master I've met, it's also one that I've adopted because I see its veracity.

I know your view is different, Dwai. You have some great reasons for your view - and I accept that this is a view you hold strongly.

 

Steve asked about the physically verifiable signs of transformation - this is what I'm interested in discussing more... not the validity of my view or of your competing view. We've already discussed that ad nauseam... so I'll be opting out of that particular line of discourse  

 

 

Hi freeform! 

 

Are you allowed to talk about such tests and physical signs? 

Find that a hugely interesting subject! 

😊