Interview with Adam Mizner

[Wilhelm]

15 minutes ago, Apech said:

Adam himself said on here that he used hermeticism to penetrate other systems - it was linked above.

Edit: nvm, he's mentioned here.  So I really don't know why he didn't mention Mark in the latest interview.  Maybe he considers his Buddhist master more significant than the others.

 

Added pictures for those who don't have Facebook.

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Wilhelm

[markern]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Are they having the same internal transformation that is seen in the others though? 

 

In my limited experience, No they didnt seem to be.That was the distinction I was trying to make.

 

 

How do you discern this?

[markern]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

Steve mentioned opening a hole in the head (then inserting grass in there is how it's usually done) - that's a thing... An earlier sign is releasing of small amounts of plasma and blood out of the fontanel point (something I've seen in a fellow practitioner).

 

What level of hole are we talking about here?

[Shadow_self]

35 minutes ago, markern said:

 

How do you discern this?

 

Freeform listed a lot of stuff earlier, some of which would indicative of opening the channels and building a surplus of energy in the body

 

Then there would be things like you commonly hear about in Vajrayana, being able to dry a sheet, generate fairly ridiculous amount of heat, opening where they stick a blade of grass.

 

There's a lot you could potentially look for.

 

You could also get a look at what they are practicing, give it a whirl yourself and see what happens  If you have some familiarity with how these things feel, you'd quickly discern whats doing the job and what is not

[markern]

44 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Freeform listed a lot of stuff earlier, some of which would indicative of opening the channels and building a surplus of energy in the body

 

Then there would be things like you commonly hear about in Vajrayana, being able to dry a sheet, generate fairly ridiculous amount of heat, opening where they stick a blade of grass.

 

There's a lot you could potentially look for.

 

You could also get a look at what they are practicing, give it a whirl yourself and see what happens  If you have some familiarity with how these things feel, you'd quickly discern whats doing the job and what is not

 

But so many of these signs are bodily signs that aren't obvious unless you get to test them very directly. Do ask do feel peoples bellies and such in order to see if things have manifested as expected?

[liminal_luke]

I'm certain that hardcore energetic training can result in observable physiological changes but, for most of us, I think it's a mistake to prematurely focus on shifts in the shape of one's skull or drying wet sheets with one's hot body in the Tibetan outback.  Generally speaking, we're not there yet.  While it's nice to know that grand transformations are possible, their pursuit can be a distraction from the next important spiritual step.  Does my practice help me unwind a little bit of my narcissism and self-focus?  Does it help me become a kinder person in the world?

[markern]

4 hours ago, freeform said:

some are a bit more Jesus-y (turning wine into water)...

 

I thought it was supposed to go the other way. Water into wine. It would be an incredible impressive yet still disappointing siddhi. Being able to do it would be amazing, true magic. But no one really wants their wine turned into water. Water into wine on the other hand would be a popular siddhi. Especially at parties. 

[markern]

7 minutes ago, markern said:

Water into wine on the other hand would be a popular siddhi. Especially at parties. 

 

Like Jesus here:
 

 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, markern said:

 

But so many of these signs are bodily signs that aren't obvious unless you get to test them very directly. Do ask do feel peoples bellies and such in order to see if things have manifested as expected?

Not exactly

 

The heat thing and sometimes that little hole in the head is a good indicator specifically for Vajrayana. Depending on the stage a person is at of course

 

You can always try the practices and see if they have any "juice to them" if you have someone who could show you

 

There's other  things as well.Being totally honest, the TB ones, as I have seen them, are very forceful and intense.Not something to play around with, I imagine it'd be pretty easy to hurt yourself very badly if done incorrectly.

 

Ian bakers take on it is generally one my experience matches up with, so  I tend to agree with him . Hes trained extensively in Tibetan Buddhism (He was even instructed by the Dalai Lama)  but also initiated into the Kaula tradition and  trained with John Chang while he was still alive

 

I think he's about as qualified as anyone to make a statement on the matter

 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Shadow_self

[Vajra Fist]

14 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I'm certain that hardcore energetic training can result in observable physiological changes but, for most of us, I think it's a mistake to prematurely focus on shifts in the shape of one's skull or drying wet sheets with one's hot body in the Tibetan outback.  Generally speaking, we're not there yet.  While it's nice to know that grand transformations are possible, their pursuit can be a distraction from the next important spiritual step.  Does my practice help me unwind a little bit of my narcissism and self-focus?  Does it help me become a kinder person in the world?

 

I would consider it a siddhi if I could be unruffled when the kid was kicking a football against the kitchen cupboards, or else when my boss drops an assignment on me just before the end of my shift. 

 

I think the most unusual thing I ever experienced from my meditation was when I pulled my head out of my arse for the first time.

 

I could see very clearly how badly damaged we all are, and full of neuroses. More than anything else, I just wanted to help people with my words and actions.

 

If I could hope for anything supernormal from my practice, it would be to have as my default state that ability to truly see others without any type of filter, and understand how best I can help them.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Vajra Fist

[freeform]

11 hours ago, markern said:

 

I thought it was supposed to go the other way. Water into wine. It would be an incredible impressive yet still disappointing siddhi. Being able to do it would be amazing, true magic. But no one really wants their wine turned into water. Water into wine on the other hand would be a popular siddhi. Especially at parties. 

 

Yes you're right - wine into water is a bit of a letdown  

 

Actually water into wine is also a thing - but a much higher level one... Wine into water is pretty doable - I can do the very beginnings of that by removing the alcohol from any drink with Qi emission (or turning normal water sweet). Water into wine is not possible to me yet 😅

Edited January 10, 2023 by freeform

[freeform]

11 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I'm certain that hardcore energetic training can result in observable physiological changes but, for most of us, I think it's a mistake to prematurely focus on shifts in the shape of one's skull or drying wet sheets with one's hot body in the Tibetan outback.  Generally speaking, we're not there yet.  While it's nice to know that grand transformations are possible, their pursuit can be a distraction from the next important spiritual step.  Does my practice help me unwind a little bit of my narcissism and self-focus?  Does it help me become a kinder person in the world?

 

When you write about these things - by the very nature of words (where you point to one thing over every other possible thing) it may make it seem like there's a deep focus on this in practice... In my case there is not...

 

I don't even consider them 'grand transformations' - just as a gym goer (hopefully) doesn't consider the ability to lift people off the ground some grand attainment!

 

You're quite right that if spiritual growth is what you're looking for, then these things should not be the focus at all.

 

And neither should you have aversion to them. 

 

A gym goer that can't yet lift people saying "all well and good that you can lift people - but that doesn't make you a better person" might be right, but that view shows a subtle internal conflict. 

 

Many of these things aren't so 'hardcore' - they can come about from correct training in the first few years...

 

And they serve a purpose that's higher than what you might initially see on the surface.

 

In a (classically daobums) semen thread I was talking about kindness - particularly kindness when you least want to show it.

 

Ever since I've had the jade fluid, I no longer get tired - I don't get irritable - I don't have drops in mood... I could go without sleep for as long as I'd want without losing focus and drive (I'd probably die before getting tired - which is a little dangerous)...

 

Well this ability has most certainly helped me in my practice of kindness. Things get pretty tough in my chosen pursuit of kind action (sorry for skirting around, but what makes it 'selfless' for me is not discussing what it is I do) - and I know I can handle the toughest situations when fellow volunteers are flagging... Another 'grand transformation' means I don't get affected by pain in the same way anymore (both physical and emotional) - I can take pain without it 'staining' me... Another one means I don't panic - I just no longer have that reflex...

 

Each of these means I'm better able to serve others in my chosen pursuit... And I'm better able to become a more suitable vehicle for the divine spark within me to manifest as fully as possible.

 

Energetic practices can build you up... they can even create the conditions for the divine spark within you to begin to shine... But that won't unwind your self focus and narcissism - it won't make you a kinder person... you just have to go out and do it yourself.

 

But here's the thing...

 

What's stopping you from doing something kind right now? I don't mean smiling at an old lady in the street - or having kind intentions in your heart - I mean doing something that makes a big difference in someone else's life.

 

What was stopping me? There are countless beings all around us that could do with some form of help - we could simply get up and go help right this second. But we don't - why?

 

For me it was some comfort zone thing... inconvenience... fear... awkwardness... not knowing what to do, and not having the drive and determination to work it out... lots of rationalising to mask an inner feeling of inadequacy... clinging to pleasure and safety... 

 

Thanks to my teacher and to those that went before, I was able to clear all that out.

 

Serving others was a much bigger motivator for me than "getting superpowers"... That sort of self-focused motivation wears out very quickly!! Now that's no longer a motivator - but it's still something I do.

 

If I held on to my view that strength, skill, attainment and mastery are all toxic, ego-centric things, I would've remained a pleasure-seeking, discomfort-averse automaton with a promising inner spark for the rest of my life. 

[freeform]

14 hours ago, markern said:

 

What level of hole are we talking about here?

 

In one controversial teacher it was pretty big - it wasn't a hole in the skin, but you could see and feel that there's a space there between the skull plates and a dip in the skin... I imagine you could at least fit a ballpoint pen through if you punctured the skin 😅

 

In the seniors at my school, they did get a puncture in the skin and some blood came through - I couldn't see the skull or the dip in the same way coz they both have hair - but I don't think it was as significant as the one above.

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

When you write about these things - by the very nature of words (where you point to one thing over every other possible thing) it may make it seem like there's a deep focus on this in practice... In my case there is not...

 

I don't even consider them 'grand transformations' - just as a gym goer (hopefully) doesn't consider the ability to lift people off the ground some grand attainment!

 

thank you for putting this so well

 

I have not practiced very long but after a lifechanging meditation I came out with a dent on my forehead. During that meditation at one point in time it felt like thick viscous honey was dripping over my head. I had no idea what was happening and was totally unprepared for these kind of things.

With one fell swoop my ego was temporarily snuffed out . Only temporarily, it has reinstalled itself so I am again a cranky selfcentered person . It has changed me though, deeply.

 

the dent in my forehead looks and feels like the layer between the bone and the skin is gone, it's very visible.

when I asked teacher about it he just smiled and told me those kind of things can happen, " just go on training"

 

as before this I never had any inclination to anything 'spiritual' , i regarded it as poppycock. I  just did chigung because my health was failing and the meditating was intended to get some relaxation.

 

at least for this person the physical chi exercises ( for want of better words) have lead me to the spiritual path.

Edited January 10, 2023 by blue eyed snake
typo

[Apech]

14 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I'm certain that hardcore energetic training can result in observable physiological changes but, for most of us, I think it's a mistake to prematurely focus on shifts in the shape of one's skull or drying wet sheets with one's hot body in the Tibetan outback.  Generally speaking, we're not there yet.  While it's nice to know that grand transformations are possible, their pursuit can be a distraction from the next important spiritual step.  Does my practice help me unwind a little bit of my narcissism and self-focus?  Does it help me become a kinder person in the world?

 

The general signs of a successful Buddhist practice are :

1)  You are less self involved and kinder to others

2)  You daily want less and less from the world (I do mean want - you may well be doing more)

3)  Doubt and confusion about the way forward seem to disappear.

 

Personally I think I need a hole in the head, like I need a hole in the head lol!

 

 

[freeform]

3 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

when I asked teacher about it he just smiled and told me those kind of things can happen, " just go on training"

 

Classic  

 

Mine would normally nod and walk away. 
 

After a while you kinda internalise this unbothered attitude and most things in practice - good or bad, mundane or extraordinary - they no longer really phase you… just yet another step on the path.

Edited January 10, 2023 by freeform

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, Apech said:

Personally I think I need a hole in the head, like I need a hole in the head lol!

The right choice of hat would certainly take on a much more critical level of importance! 😅

[dwai]

3 hours ago, freeform said:

If I held on to my view that strength, skill, attainment and mastery are all toxic, ego-centric things, I would've remained a pleasure-seeking, discomfort-averse automaton with a promising inner spark for the rest of my life. 

My teacher told me a long time ago, power is bestowed upon you when you truly lose the interest in developing power. As long as there is the desire to acquire power, meaningful power will elude you (meaning, one can do parlor tricks but not anything meaningful).
 

One example he gives of the kind of power is, if you have the power, you can walk into a mental institution and calm down agitated patients just by your presence.
 

I’ve stories of him doing many things such teleport, walk through walls, etc, or his teacher levitating, and so on. But also the caveat emptor is always, “don’t crave this. This is not stuff you can desire for ulterior/trivial motives. It is a result of grace.” 
 

The quoted point of yours is more meaningful to me than anything else you’ve written (imho)  

[freeform]

53 minutes ago, dwai said:

when you truly lose the interest in developing power

Yes - as you’ve eloquently said before, this drive for power is caused by fear… of not being enough or having enough (status, sex, control, resources etc). It’s an aspect of what I call the base desires… related with the water aspect of our being.

 

Curiously it’s both the craving for and the aversion to this aspect of ourselves that keeps us stuck.
 

The dropping of this fear is what I’d call entering Dao… which isn’t some sort of ultimate attainment - but simply means that now you’re on the Path (which is what Dao means on one level).

 

Any sort of power before this is ‘borrowed’ - and it costs one dearly… as well as having a corrupting influence on one’s spiritual growth.

[dwai]

15 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yes - as you’ve eloquently said before, this drive for power is caused by fear… of not being enough or having enough (status, sex, control, resources etc). It’s an aspect of what I call the base desires… related with the water aspect of our being.

 

Curiously it’s both the craving for and the aversion to this aspect of ourselves that keeps us stuck.
 

The dropping of this fear is what I’d call entering Dao… which isn’t some sort of ultimate attainment - but simply means that now you’re on the Path (which is what Dao means on one level).

 

Any sort of power before this is ‘borrowed’ - and it costs one dearly… as well as having a corrupting influence on one’s spiritual growth.

Another important point made by my teacher is, "don't try to do anything by yourself...let the Dao work through you." 

This we call 'Becoming empty (of body-mind identifixation).' So any "siddhis" are not really ours anyway - if we look at them from a sense of ownership, it is no longer in the domain of remaining empty. 

[Sahaja]

 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

My teacher told me a long time ago, power is bestowed upon you when you truly lose the interest in developing power. As long as there is the desire to acquire power, meaningful power will elude you (meaning, one can do parlor tricks but not anything meaningful).
 

One example he gives of the kind of power is, if you have the power, you can walk into a mental institution and calm down agitated patients just by your presence.
 

I’ve stories of him doing many things such teleport, walk through walls, etc, or his teacher levitating, and so on. But also the caveat emptor is always, “don’t crave this. This is not stuff you can desire for ulterior/trivial motives. It is a result of grace.” 
 

The quoted point of yours is more meaningful to me than anything else you’ve written (imho)  

In support of your point, I think the basis for this whole discussion on visualization is really more globally about reducing intentionality in practice to allow the fruits to naturally arise. This is my understanding of what these two people (at least DM) are talking about. This doesn’t mean no intentionality but means dialing it back as close to zero as possible without losing the connection to the practice. This allows the fruit to naturally manifest, in their approach, initially as very physical phenomena/manifestation which leads overtime to the possibility of changing more deeper layers and ultimately in a spiritual direction (with Grace) I think this approach is influenced by the concepts of wuwei (non intentional action) and ziran (naturally arising) but could also be related or have a connection in some ways  to the concepts  of vairagya (non attachment) and abhyasa (practice) in other traditions, at least in my understanding of them. Discussion of efficacy of chosen practice or tradition quickly devolves to a focus on results (whether physical or behavioral) and whose result is more impressive. Ultimately this focus (whether it’s on a simple physical contraction of the lower abdomen caused by just opening your hands  or it’s something much more dramatic like disappearing in a rainbow body ) can result in these things becoming further distant if we reflect on the meaning of wuwei or vairagya and their foundational nature to these traditions. 
 

having said that I really appreciate freeform’s sharing as it’s very interesting and inspirational to me personally. Thank you freeform!

Edited January 10, 2023 by Sahaja
Make it clearer.

[S:C]

7 hours ago, freeform said:

If I held on to my view that strength, skill, attainment and mastery are all toxic, ego-centric things

What is your way of recognizing the good from the bad? How do you know that down the causal chain things will not take unexpected turns    ?

 

How do you make sure or verify you can rely on your judgement? 

Edited January 10, 2023 by schroedingerscat
Last sentence added

[freeform]

7 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

What is your way of recognizing the good from the bad? How do you know that down the causal chain things will not take unexpected turns    ?

 

How do you make sure or verify you can rely on your judgement? 

On one level you start to recognise what motivates an action… 

 

Does the action (whether a physical action in the world or mental action - like thinking or intending)… does it come from the Acquired Self or the Spirit?

 

Is the action motivated by fear? (Base desires)… does it come from automated habitual patterns? Is it just a knee-jerk, stimulus-response reaction to something?

 

Even if an action like that has an apparently beneficial effect, it’s still one that leads you (if only a tiny bit) away from the Divine within you.

 

Then there are actions that come from deeper parts of you - ‘purer’ parts that are closer to the source (known as the De or Virtues)… effectively your Soul - the personal level of the Divine.

 

Then, on an even deeper level, some actions can come from within the very centre of the Divine - your Spirit (a religious person might say it’s God acting through you)… 

 

Of course in the beginning it’s hard to discern, and you’ll find that an uncomfortable amount of your day to day motivations come from the habitual and base aspects… this can be painful to learn… especially when you discover parts of you that masquerade as loving and caring are actually motivated by greed and selfishness. 

 

Conscience is a good guide for most people. You tend to feel at a subtle level if something is coming from a self-gratifying aspect of you…

 

A teacher, a partner or a close friend can also provide feedback.

 

Once you start to get genuine virtuous action happening from time to time, you get a sense for it… 

 

But this is when the ‘unexpected turn’ starts to not matter… Meaning that on the rare occasion when it’s true, unconditioned virtue acting from within me, I’m fully prepared to die as a result.

 

Its not ‘bravery’… it’s something else - coz as Dwai said, you’re not identified with you as the person or the body… you’re identified with something bigger and pretty much immortal - so death doesn’t even figure in it.

 

It is said that a sage that acts purely through uncontrived De (virtue) is akin to a saint - the outcomes of all their actions are benevolent and beneficial on a deep level.

[S:C]

Thank you!

Quote

you’re identified with something bigger

What would you say ‚it‘ is? 
How do you know ,it‘ is pure? 
 

How can ,it’ be objective in an subjective individual? How would you describe the feeling of ,de‘? 
 

Edited January 10, 2023 by schroedingerscat
Popping up Questions

[freeform]

14 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

Thank you!

What would you say ‚it‘ is? 
How do you know ,it‘ is pure? 
 

How can ,it’ be objective in an subjective individual? How would you describe the feeling of ,de‘? 
 

Maybe best for a private discussion