Visualisation - any good?

[doc benway]

Just as there is the assertion being discussed that one cannot use visualization to do anything useful in terms of real inner accomplishment [sic], it is an error to call the spontaneous visions that some are mentioning in this thread “visualization.” They are not IMO. They cannot be created by a practitioner or master or even the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. Only your own primordial and pure nature can create these spontaneous visions. 

 

By definition in the dzogchen teachings any intent, any effort, any subject-object discrimination whatsoever means the experience is not spontaneous and not a sign of anything special.  Spontaneous visions (dzogchen - thodgal) are a display of the essence of mind and an indicator of one’s ability to rest in the nature of mind with stability. That is all that they really mean. This is an important part of the training and includes things like sky and sun gazing and dark retreat.

 

 I suggest that it is confusing to use one word to describe these two different phenomena. In the case of such spontaneous visions and also the path of connecting with and resting in the nature of mind to find them, I agree there is no path. It must be allowed, never done. The most frequently used word when I guide is rest.  

 

Truthfully most of us are not in that presence or engaged in (not)trying most of the time so what do we do? Working with the body, speech, and mind is our only way forward, or perhaps the best use of the time at least, and we all need different things to support us in these times - like posting here…

 

🤣

 

In this spirit I’d say that essentially all practices can contribute to this fruition we are pointing at (but haven’t defined) but none of them are assured. At some point though we need to let go fully of trying for a result using any method, and find it. On that I agree fully with Adam.

 

 

PS - and it goes beyond the visual, another source of confusion using this word. Any (and all) experience or combination related to the 6 senses can be a vision or a visualization.

 

PPS - the view, practice, and fruition are all explicitly different between dzogchen/mahamudra and theravada, so we are always comparing apples to oranges 

 

PPPS - vision in the dzogchen paradigm is divided into impure and pure for sake of discussion. Impure vision is fabricated vision and visualization is therefore always impure, even the most perfect visualization of the most perfect mandala! Pure vision is spontaneous and cannot be created or destroyed, the dark room shows that, it is a direct experience of the base, of the non-interference of mind, of wu wei.

[dwai]

28 minutes ago, steve said:

ust as there is the assertion being discussed that one cannot use visualization to do anything useful in terms of real inner accomplishment [sic], it is an error to call the spontaneous visions that some are mentioning in this thread “visualization.” They are not IMO. They cannot be created by a practitioner or master or even the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. Only your own primordial and pure nature can create these spontaneous visions

I used the term “visualization” as a phenomenon which involves visual artifacts. I actually have experience with visualization to recreate certain aspects of these spontaneous visions to invoke certain states of the mind and energetic changes corresponding, especially pertaining to deities and immortals. There are tangible energetic and physiological changes when this occurs. One is that the mind becomes still and clear. There is an expansion of the mental field and associated spaciousness. Additionally, depending on the deity/immortal certain energetic signatures are present - such as heat, coolness, increased vigor or serenity, far beyond the normal. So, in my experience, visualization can be used that way as well. 

[doc benway]

23 minutes ago, dwai said:

So, in my experience, visualization can be used that way as well. 

 

From the dzogchen perspective, those visions are considered impure. Not spontaneous expressions of the base but fabrications of mind even if the mind is very still and spacious.

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, steve said:

 

From the dzogchen perspective, those visions are considered impure. Not spontaneous expressions of the base but fabrications of mind even if the mind is very still and spacious.

This is a very valid way to do deity worship - it is not nondual, but has its benefits at preparatory stages.  

[Lairg]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

I actually have experience with visualization to recreate certain aspects of these spontaneous

 

Inner events/visions/dreams usually remain as energy fields and it is possible to re-enter the energies and continue to interact

 

 

 

[Shadow_self]

10 hours ago, dwai said:

There are two levels of visualization in my experience. The kind that comes from the ordinary mind is usually unstable. It can’t be held consistently for an extended period of time. It, like the thoughts/mind, toggles between manifestation and disappearance. So the kind of practices that work on holding an image in the mind for an extended period of time work on concentration (in yogic terms, works in establishing ekagrachitta - one-pointed mind). 
 

This is basically in line with what Damo, Adam and every other teacher or practitioner of note I've encountered espouses.

 

The point I was making, is outside of concentration development, is there any other use for it?

 

Certainly in the case of moving, building and working with energy, This is where I take a major issue.

 

10 hours ago, dwai said:

There is another kind of visualization that arises spontaneously as part of meditation - such as mandalas, chakras, or more elaborate ones such as appearance of deities. These can work at the subtle/astral or causal levels depending on the level of the practitioner. These are very interesting because they will arise such that one is simultaneously in multiple dimensions/realms at once. For example, when it happens to me, I am aware of being in the physical body in the physical world, in meditation, while being in an astral dimension experiencing astral phenomena, and also in the causal dimension experiencing causal phenomena. 
 

I am aware of this. But here lies the crux of the argument. This is what I (and others) would say the big mix-up is

 

Any of us that are saying visualization isnt helpful. This is what we mean.

 

The mix up is when to visualize something, becomes to imagine it. Because by just what you mentioned, these arise either spontaneously, or, in the case I am referring to,  as an effect of a set of practices (the effect to a cause when the right conditions are met) .

 

I would consider this what was meant when people translate visualize in many cases (ie you will see), rather than you will create or imagine

 

Trying to contrive these things are imo useless, because they are meant to arise of their own accord

 

When subtle vision ramps up to the right degree, you can actually see these things as well and feel them, and by that, work with them. Thats what Adam was talking about. These drops etc, the side channels.

 

So there is little point in trying to imagine qi running along a channel or a light in a certain area. Given the right practice and level of development, it will arise of its own accord

 

I could literally quote Adam and Damo talking about these things. Heres one from Adams book

 

Quote

Sure, relaxing into it. I’ve done a lot of visualization. But you cannot enter jhāna on
a complex visualization. You cannot, it’s not possible. Even with an image of a
Buddha you can’t. You can only enter on the most simple visualization, so the
Buddha put forward very basic visualizations which he called kasina, like a white
disk is one. Now actually the traditional practice is not a visualization, it’s looking at a
material object. The visualizations came later, they’re not what the Buddha taught.
The true nimitta, when the image arises it arises like a visualization, so I believe that
visualizing kasinas is an attempt to fabricate the nimitta. But the true nimitta, when
it arises, is nothing like a visualization, it’s far more brilliant than any visualization
you could ever have, and it’s so brilliant the mind will want, desperately want, to
absorb into it. Desperately, like there’s nothing in this world that could compare to
the nimitta. So it’s not like a visualized object.

 

This is basically where I think we would stand on it  

 

10 hours ago, dwai said:

This kind of visualization/sensation also is like permanently hearing a specific sound (or more like it’s always there but depending on if the mind focuses on it or not, it is audible), or a light source that is always present, but if the intention to focus on it, it pops back into the foreground of the mind. Example, I see a point of light all the time, located in the horizon of my field of vision, but it is not a physical phenomena - it’s a third eye thing. 
 

Sounds like the Shenguang  

 

10 hours ago, dwai said:

So one kind of visualization is the “training wheels” kind, and the other is that of spontaneously arising or uncovering phenomena seen by the subtle senses.

 

 

Well yes I agree with this, but I am pretty sure Adam kind of meant a similar thing. He would also say when working with energy it can be problematic, because by trying to "imagine" it you are literally intending and interacting with it in a way that would cause you not to be able to tune into it properly.

[Shadow_self]

8 hours ago, steve said:

Just as there is the assertion being discussed that one cannot use visualization to do anything useful in terms of real inner accomplishment [sic], it is an error to call the spontaneous visions that some are mentioning in this thread “visualization.” They are not IMO. They cannot be created by a practitioner or master or even the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. Only your own primordial and pure nature can create these spontaneous visions. 

 

By definition in the dzogchen teachings any intent, any effort, any subject-object discrimination whatsoever means the experience is not spontaneous and not a sign of anything special.  Spontaneous visions (dzogchen - thodgal) are a display of the essence of mind and an indicator of one’s ability to rest in the nature of mind with stability. That is all that they really mean. This is an important part of the training and includes things like sky and sun gazing and dark retreat.

 

 I suggest that it is confusing to use one word to describe these two different phenomena. In the case of such spontaneous visions and also the path of connecting with and resting in the nature of mind to find them, I agree there is no path. It must be allowed, never done. The most frequently used word when I guide is rest.  

 

Truthfully most of us are not in that presence or engaged in (not)trying most of the time so what do we do? Working with the body, speech, and mind is our only way forward, or perhaps the best use of the time at least, and we all need different things to support us in these times - like posting here…

 

🤣

 

In this spirit I’d say that essentially all practices can contribute to this fruition we are pointing at (but haven’t defined) but none of them are assured. At some point though we need to let go fully of trying for a result using any method, and find it. On that I agree fully with Adam.

 

 

PS - and it goes beyond the visual, another source of confusion using this word. Any (and all) experience or combination related to the 6 senses can be a vision or a visualization.

 

PPS - the view, practice, and fruition are all explicitly different between dzogchen/mahamudra and theravada, so we are always comparing apples to oranges 

 

PPPS - vision in the dzogchen paradigm is divided into impure and pure for sake of discussion. Impure vision is fabricated vision and visualization is therefore always impure, even the most perfect visualization of the most perfect mandala! Pure vision is spontaneous and cannot be created or destroyed, the dark room shows that, it is a direct experience of the base, of the non-interference of mind, of wu wei.

 

@steve I appreciate your long post  Its nice to hear from your experience and practice 

 

I think I get where you are coming from, however if I may take you up on this point (Respectfully) 

 

Its not that I think those spontaneous visions should or can be created. 

 

It is that I think the label of "visualize" was never meant as "create an image of" rather it was literally meant as "you will see". It is the mixup between these two that many of us feel have caused so many problems

 

The white light is a rather apt example. You very often hear of people being told to imagine (or visualize)  a white light. 

 

However, as I have experienced it, this light should arise of its own volition, devoid of any imaginary faculty. 

 

Moreover, when it does (depending on the form it takes, or experience of, there are many) it is rather paradigm shifting, in a way that something you  forcefully willed into your mental space never could be

 

P.S I enjoyed you many P.S's

[markern]

On 4.1.2023 at 10:04 PM, freeform said:

I’ve seen the method I learned described in Wang Li Ping’s book.

 

Basically an issue arises with extended practice in that the personal-emotional (Xin) entanglement with events that happen to you lessens, your memory goes to shit  

 

My memory became kinda terrible because there’s no emotional anchor holding it within easy reach if the mind… no juicy (or even subtle) emotion to grasp - so the memories start to slip away…

 

So the practice we do involves creating a sort of ‘photographic’ recall of memories… though involving all senses - not just visual.

 

Wow. Fascinating. I have seen a lot of people on Dharmaoverground.org and r/streamentry write about getting more and more memory problems the deeper their awakenings become. And Jeffrey Martins research into people who have had awakening experiences describes memory problems as becoming quite frequent. He seemed to say that long term book learning memory and similar types of memory did not get impacted but that things like what people where going to do that day or what they did the last few days become very difficult for people to remember. 

I remember you writing about some sort of practice of trying to remember the entire day or something. 

When I have looked at Damos curriculum I have thought that maybe some of these practices are there to balance out the types of imbalances that can occur when people have non dual experiences and awakenings. Some of the mental trainings seem to be about very left brained logical linear types of thinking. For example one of them is about learning to follow a trail of thoughts for as long as you like in the direction you like without becoming distracted. It seems to me that quite a few people who get deep into spiritual practices start to struggle more and more with that. They become so "floaty" and right brained in their being it becomes hard for them to be linear in any way, including their thinking. 

 

I have also been curious about that exercise for remembering the day because I have long thought that I could develop an almost absolute photographic memory for things I read. I have a very strong visual capacity and visual memory and I usually remember what the pages of books look like and can vaguely recall what is on each page and sometimes what is in each paragraph if I focus enough on it. But I can only rarely actually read the text. I tried to experiment with trying to focus in and start reading text and eventually managed it sometimes. It was like suddenly my mind managed to zoom in and the text became perfectly readable. Then I did a period of Yoga Nidra, which includes a lot of visualizations, and that made it way easier to actually read the text. It seemed like if I kept it up I could start doing it without any struggle. But then I got very serious chi deviation issues and had to quit all practices and haven't been able to resume any sort of cultivation practice yet. But I am stil very curious about what training that capacity can bring. It seems like to me that almost everything that I have seen is still stored and that with enough concentration and clear enough visualization ability I can recall almost anything. 



 

[doc benway]

7 hours ago, dwai said:

This is a very valid way to do deity worship - it is not nondual, but has its benefits at preparatory stages.  

Agreed, I'm simply trying to clarify our terms

 

6 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

It is that I think the label of "visualize" was never meant as "create an image of" rather it was literally meant as "you will see". It is the mixup between these two that many of us feel have caused so many problems

For me the word visualize connotes someone doing something, creating an image or creating circumstances that give rise to an image. There is a subject-object duality there, an engagement of the samsaric mind. I'm not going to insist anyone accept my definition but I do think it's useful to discriminate between the process of creating a mental image and experiencing the spontaneous arising of pure vision, be that light or more defined imagery like deities, mandalas, and so forth. I also believe that what Adam is cautioning practitioners against is utilizing visualization as an active mental process which is how I'm defining the word. His primary point seems to be to allow things to happen spontaneously, without fabrication. I've never spoken to him so, of course, I could be mistaken. 

[freeform]

50 minutes ago, markern said:

more and more memory problems

Yeah - I mean I wouldn’t call it problems 😅

 

The reality is that it’s all still in there - just we’re used to using emotion as a kind of hook to be able to fish them out. You probably can easily remember getting bullied as a kid or your first romantic encounter - or anything like that - but less likely you’d be able to remember an ordinary school day.

 

For me functional memory has always been fine and unaffected by practice… 

 

What can happen with some meditators is when an error creeps into their practice - they basically start to dull their mind as a simulation of stillness… dull your mind enough and you’ll quickly feel like your thinking has stopped. 
 

This certainly has associated problems.

 

Oh and yes - what I was talking about - remembering your day in perfect detail - that’s the start of the practice. Later we use this perfect recall ability to review key periods in life for various purposes.

 

Good use of visualisation

 

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, steve said:

Agreed, I'm simply trying to clarify our terms

 

For me the word visualize connotes someone doing something, creating an image or creating circumstances that give rise to an image. There is a subject-object duality there, an engagement of the samsaric mind. I'm not going to insist anyone accept my definition but I do think it's useful to discriminate between the process of creating a mental image and experiencing the spontaneous arising of pure vision, be that light or more defined imagery like deities, mandalas, and so forth.

 

I agree with you that we should differentiate

 

I apologize if what I say next sounds a bit derogatory or inflammatory, I can assure you I do not intend it to be that way, but I think this is the way to best present it

 

So in order to differentiate between a spontaneous vision and a mental image, what you think is the correct terms?

 

For me, constructing a mental image would be imagination.

For me seeing a spontaneous vision would be to visualize.

 

Can you see the morpheme?

 

The language here seems pretty clear to me at least

 

I do know people use these words interchangeably. However I think is exactly where the root of the problem is to be honest

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Well yes I agree with this, but I am pretty sure Adam kind of meant a similar thing. He would also say when working with energy it can be problematic, because by trying to "imagine" it you are literally intending and interacting with it in a way that would cause you not to be able to tune into it properly.

I disagree. In my system of Taijiquan, we visualize a taiji ball initially, as we learn and practice the forms. But it becomes palpable within a few weeks and then drives our development. We can then expand it, shrink it, condense it, split it, and so on. We apply this in our regular practice and the more we work with it, more tangible it is. Now, is this a ball that we create? No. We simply start with visualizing it. But it simply is a part of our own field, and  we soon tap into our field and with time it grows and expands. What is called Jin is the surface tension of this field. It is not merely elastic force of the fascia within the body. 

 

One of my taiji brothers also studied with Adam, and according to him, while Adam is certainly gifted, he’s not at the same level as our teacher (and it was not simply to appease our teacher either, we all know he goes to learn from Adam - he’s a bit of a serial learner - he’s learned from Adam, mark Rasmus, and damo too). 
 

Now one person I think has a better grasp on things is mark rasmus, and what he teaches is much aligned with what we learn in our system. But I’m not saying that out of a bias - but in what he says and describes matches my own experiences and those of many of my fellow students.  

Edited January 6, 2023 by dwai

[Barnaby]

7 minutes ago, dwai said:

Now one person I think has a better grasp on things is mark rasmus

 

And curiously, we're all talking about students of Mark Rasmus...

[dwai]

16 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

And curiously, we're all talking about students of Mark Rasmus...

I didn’t know damo is Rasmus’ student too. 

[Barnaby]

3 minutes ago, dwai said:

I didn’t know damo is Rasmus’ student too. 

 

That's what I've been told.

[Apech]

7 minutes ago, dwai said:

I didn’t know damo is Rasmus’ student too. 

 

 

Is this why Mizner mention Franz Bardon when asked about what visualisation he had done?

 

 

[liminal_luke]

33 minutes ago, dwai said:

I disagree. In my system of Taijiquan, we visualize a taiji ball initially, as we learn and practice the forms. But it becomes palpable within a few weeks and then drives our development. We can then expand it, shrink it, condense it, split it, and so on. We apply this in our regular practice and the more we work with it, more tangible it is. Now, is this a ball that we create? No. We simply start with visualizing it. But we soon tap into our field and with time it grows and expands. What is called Jin is the surface tension of this field. It is not merely elastic force of the fascia within the body. 

 

 

Yes!  Consciously visualizing something -- creating the feeling of it with one's mind -- is a prepatory beginner's practice in my opinion but can lead to the "real thing."  You start out visualizing a taiji ball and before long you've got a real taiji ball, not an imaginary one at all.  I think it's a mistake to posit a hard dichotomy between real and imagined.  While they are not the same, the one often leads to the other.  Once the "real" phenomenon emerges the training wheels of imagination can be dropped.  

 

I reserve the right to change my mind upon further practice and exploration, but this has been my experience thus far.

 

 

 

 

[awaken]

觀想使用後天意識作用，會導致演化的障礙

因為演化是基於後天意識消失之後才會發生

Visualizing the use of acquired consciousness will lead to obstacles in evolution

Because evolution is based on the disappearance of acquired consciousness.

In addition to causing obstacles to evolution, it can also cause hallucinations

A beginner who has not practiced the ability of evolution should not create illusions for himself to deceive his brain

Focus on being aware of illusions, not creating them

 

除了導致演化的障礙之外，也會造成幻境

一個沒有練出演化能力的初學者，不應該給自己製造幻境來欺騙自己的大腦

應該致力於覺察幻境，而不是製造幻境

 

A person who does not use inaction as the main body of practice may not know how much energy and time it takes for a person to go through the illusion

It's too late to travel through the illusion, how can there be time to create an illusion?

 

一個沒有以無為為練習主體的人，可能不知道，一個人要穿越幻境需要多大的能量，需要多少的時間

穿越幻境都來不及了，怎麼可能還有時間去製造幻境呢？

 

A teacher should not use creating illusions as a way to focus students' minds, but should teach students how to see through illusions

 

一個老師也不應該把製造幻境當成給學生集中心念的方法，而是應該教導學生如何看穿幻境

 

A cultivator should focus on seeing through the illusion, so that when the illusion appears, he will be able to distinguish whether it is an illusion or not

 

一個修煉者應該把重點放在看穿幻境，這樣當幻境出現的時候，才有能力分辨是否為幻境

 

The somatosensory visualization of energy may not cause illusions, because it is somatosensory, and human consciousness is still quite clear

But visualizing images is very easy to cause illusions, because when illusions appear, consciousness is already in a fuzzy state

So the two should not be mixed together
What's more, the qi sense that belongs to the body sense is at a very novice level, and it is not a place for a practitioner to stay at all.

 

觀想能量的體感可能不至於造成幻境，因為那是體感，人類的意識還相當的清晰

但是觀想影像則非常容易造成幻境，因為當幻境出現的時候，意識已經處於模糊狀態了

所以不應該把兩者混在一起
更何況屬於體感的氣感根本就是非常初學的程度，根本不是一個修煉者該停留的地方

 

A normal practitioner should reach the level of foundation establishment within a hundred days
That is to say, within a hundred days, it is necessary to produce the black liver light ( the small medicine )

Unless the person's physical condition is very poor, or very old, or very stubborn, it will cause the foundation of not being able to lay a small medicine within a hundred days

Normally speaking, within a hundred days, one should progress from the stage of physical aura（Qi） to the stage of small medicine( black liver light)

 

一個正常的練習者，應該在一百天之內，就要達到基礎建立完成的程度
也就是一百天之內，就要練出小藥烏肝光

除非這個人的身體狀況很差，或者年紀很大，或者很頑固，都會造成無法在一百天之內打好小藥的基礎

正常來說一百天之內，就應該要從身體氣感的階段，進步到小藥烏肝光的階段了

 

If a practitioner has practiced for five or ten years and still stays at the Qi Sensing stage, he must highly suspect whether there is a problem with the direction of cultivation.

 

當一個修煉者如果練了五年十年，還停留在氣感階段，就要高度懷疑是否是修煉方向出了問題

 

 

When a person has practiced for five, ten, or even twenty years, and still uses visualization as a method of concentration, this is already a very problematic practice method.

Normally, after three years of practice, a person should be able to produce those mandala images naturally, this is the normal state

 

當一個人練了五年十年，甚至二十年以上，還在使用觀想當作專心的方法，這已經是非常有問題的練法了

正常來說，一個人練了三年就應該能夠自然的產生那些曼陀羅的影像，這樣才是正常的狀態

Edited January 6, 2023 by awaken

[Barnaby]

8 minutes ago, Apech said:

Is this why Mizner mention Franz Bardon when asked about what visualisation he had done?

 

Judge for yourself...

 

Quote

Posted January 1, 2009

franz bardons system is exellent and it is work. for those interested a good teacher will make it acheivable. 

 

it was my training in thbis system that has enabled me penatrate other systems.

 

metta

adam

 

[dwai]

24 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Yes!  Consciously visualizing something -- creating the feeling of it with one's mind -- is a prepatory beginner's practice in my opinion but can lead to the "real thing."  You start out visualizing a taiji ball and before long you've got a real taiji ball, not an imaginary one at all.  I think it's a mistake to posit a hard dichotomy between real and imagined.  While they are not the same, the one often leads to the other.  Once the "real" phenomenon emerges the training wheels of imagination can be dropped.  
 

And in my experience, when the “real thing” kicks in, the visual cues are not needed as feeling takes over. In our system, “feeling” is given great importance. To feel the energy, ie sensing the energy is more powerful and once that is sufficiently developed it will supersede the sensory apparatuses. 
 

Additionally, the way we induce movement inside is by moving the taiji ball. This is called the indirect method, where the will is not moving the energy internally, but by moving the taiji ball, ie the field, induces movement within. A couple of things are prerequisites for this - one is a palpable Taiji ball, and the other is the lower dan tien. 

Quote

 

I reserve the right to change my mind upon further practice and exploration, but this has been my experience thus far.

Of course. I agree 100% 

Edited January 6, 2023 by dwai

[Shadow_self]

30 minutes ago, dwai said:

I disagree. In my system of Taijiquan, we visualize a taiji ball initially, as we learn and practice the forms. But it becomes palpable within a few weeks and then drives our development. We can then expand it, shrink it, condense it, split it, and so on. We apply this in our regular practice and the more we work with it, more tangible it is. Now, is this a ball that we create? No. We simply start with visualizing it. But it simply is a part of our own field, and  we soon tap into our field and with time it grows and expands. What is called Jin is the surface tension of this field. It is not merely elastic force of the fascia within the body. 

 

I apologize but my ability to discuss Taiji is not there.

 

I will have to bow out of that one respectfully   Im not looking for an out, I just don't have that knowledge. Its not something I do.

 

I was referring to Neigong in the sense of building the LDT,  accumulating and surplus of qi and opening the Channels etc.  Its more along the lines of Pre-Neidan. Adam teaches this too, so I am assuming this is what he was referring too. 

 

I understand the term Neigong is a catch all too, so im using the term to discuss that process specifically   You are welcome to elaborate more on what you do. I cannot comment, but I am happy to listen and contrast  

 

30 minutes ago, dwai said:

One of my taiji brothers also studied with Adam, and according to him, while Adam is certainly gifted, he’s not at the same level as our teacher (and it was not simply to appease our teacher either, we all know he goes to learn from Adam - he’s a bit of a serial learner - he’s learned from Adam, mark Rasmus, and damo too). 
 

Now one person I think has a better grasp on things is mark rasmus, and what he teaches is much aligned

with what we learn in our system. But I’m not saying that out of a bias - but in what he says and describes matches my own experiences and then of many of my fellow students.  

 

I like Mark. Even though Hermetics is not my thing. I know some who have spent time with him  

 

I can recognize skill and knowledge where I see it.  Even if its not my forte

 

 

[Apech]

11 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

Judge for yourself...

 

 

 

I had no idea he was a member/ex-member of this place!

 

Well, well, well.

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I was referring to Neigong in the sense of building the LDT,  accumulating and surplus of qi and opening the Channels etc.  Its more along the lines of Pre-Neidan. Adam teaches this too, so I am assuming this is what he was referring too

This is another myth. There is non need to build the LDT. It already exists. What is needed is to be able to sense it and refine it. As we develop our sensing ability, the LDT will exist as a largish diffused field in the lower abdominal area. With time and practice it can be refined and condensed down to the size of

a soft ball —> golf ball —> point. 

[Shadow_self]

Just now, dwai said:

This is another myth. There is non need to build the LDT. It already exists. What is needed is to be able to sense it and refine it. As we develop our sensing ability, the LDT will exist as a largish diffused field in the lower abdominal area. With time and practice it can be refined and condensed down to the size of

a soft ball —> golf ball —> point. 

 

We use the word build at the beginning to discuss the reconsolidation of the pre-existing field you mention  

 

Technically speaking, we should call it the xia tian, as the Dan tien would imply the elixir is already there.  

[awaken]

Taoist practice has always started from Yin and Yang
Yin and Yang, inaction is the main body of Taoist practice
The sense of qi in the lower abdomen has never been the main body of practice
The feeling of Qi in the lower abdomen has always been just passing by

 

道家的修煉一直都是從陰陽下手
陰陽，無為才是道家修煉的主體
下腹部的氣感從來都不是修煉的主體
下腹部的氣感一向只是過客

 

It's not a myth, it's a fact

 

這不是神話，而是事實

 

Those who are willing to give up their attachment to the sense of Qi in the lower abdomen, and those who are willing to follow the Taoist way of practicing Wuwei Yin and Yang, will soon be able to produce a real inner scene
You don’t need to spend five, ten, or twenty years still using visualization to concentrate your thoughts

 

願意放棄執著於下腹部的氣感的人，願意按照道家修煉無為陰陽的方式的人，很快就能產生真正的內景
不用花上五年十年二十年還在使用觀想去集中心念

 

All the Taoist classics, none of them, teach people to keep their minds in the lower abdomen

 

所有的道家經典，沒有任何一本，教人把心念守在下腹部

 

Inaction Yin and Yang is not a myth, but a method of cultivation

 

無為陰陽不是神話，而是修煉的方法