Visualisation - any good?

[Apech]

10 minutes ago, steve said:

Neidan practice did not use visualization, Vajrayana does in both generation and completion stage practices, but not in dzogchen. I don't know enough about mahamudra to comment. 

 

Many reasons which include the things you mention above but go beyond that. 

Some of which are on the negative side that I'd rather not get into publicly.

 

Yes, this is a major part of my process of evaluation also. 

 

My pleasure

 

I'm going to stop here out of respect for @Apech

 

Respect for me is the secret of spiritual success!

 

Mahamudra does not use visualisation - but a typical practitioner is likely to be doing sadhanas as well which will involve visualisation - as supporting practice if you like.

[liminal_luke]

I'm not a practitioner of Bon like Steve but I have attended a few online Bon workshops where students interacted in forums.  The level of support and kindness the students showed one another was different then I've seen elsewhere.  To me this speaks to the effectiveness of the practice.

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, steve said:

Neidan practice did not use visualization, Vajrayana does in both generation and completion stage practices, but not in dzogchen. I don't know enough about mahamudra to comment. 

I enjoy the input here.

 

You might be familiar with the Middle section of the Northern Wall of the Lukhang Temple. There is something rather interesting happening there  

 

Perhaps a separate thread on Vajrayana might be something of interest down the line to people. Not focusing on one aspect of it that seems to be causing controversy. I feel like its creating a black white duality that isn't representative of the positive aspects, and probably doesn't reflect the opinions of anyone in the thread

 

FWIW the people I know who've had development or done well with it vs those who didnt. There was a gap in their understanding of the energetic system, and their emphasis day to day was different. Moreover, there was an unfortunate ratio of those who did vs didnt.

 

That might be just my limited experience though, I've not encountered  hundreds of practitioners. This was one of the reasons I was happy to hear yours. 

 

Asa said he knows nobody who has gotten anywhere with this. I agreed that a lot of people ive come across don't get the results he spoke about, however I don't agree with the nobody, and perhaps his circle may be more limited than he'd like to imagine.

 

But thats just my 2c on the matter  

 

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Many reasons which include the things you mention above but go beyond that. 

Some of which are on the negative side that I'd rather not get into publicly.

Understood and thank you for the elaboration  

 

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Yes, this is a major part of my process of evaluation also. 

As above 

 

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My pleasure

Likewise  

Edited January 7, 2023 by Shadow_self

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

I'm not a practitioner of Bon like Steve but I have attended a few online Bon workshops where students interacted in forums.  The level of support and kindness the students showed one another was different then I've seen elsewhere.  To me this speaks to the effectiveness of the practice.

 

Yeah they’re nice but they never want to dry my wet blankets… what’s up with that?!

🙃

[dwai]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I'm not a practitioner of Bon like Steve but I have attended a few online Bon workshops where students interacted in forums.  The level of support and kindness the students showed one another was different then I've seen elsewhere.  To me this speaks to the effectiveness of the practice.

The amount of compassion in action, joy in action are two signs of spiritual maturity imho. 

[forestofclarity]

On 1/6/2023 at 4:22 PM, Shadow_self said:

Do you want to asnwer that question I previously asked to speed things along perhaps?

What I use are the big three: traditional scriptures/commentaries, a teacher’s guidance and personal experience. The first contains the experience of many who have come before, the second some one who has realized to some degree here and now, and your own path which is the path to come.
 

Over time these generate an increasingly familiar roadmap of the mind and mental functions. The traditional literature and oral tradition contain signs to look for: the ten fetter model, the five wisdoms model, the six realms, etc. Some are not public. Some are multileveled. Some are basic, others are detailed. At first, they are a bit static and ideal, perhaps fragmented. You have lots of doubts.

 

But you find your own map starts to develop.

 

At first, the map is kind of small and basic, 

but as you study, listen, contemplate and practice it becomes more clear, expansive, and precise. At first, it is mostly a map of the mind in ignorance and suffering. You begin to learn a lot about this, how it feels inside and how it is expressed bodily. You choose teachers who aren’t always great and make a lot of errors. You start to see cause and effect. You become familiar with the suffering mind.
 

But over time, this changes. As you journey along, you learn from your practice and errors, so discernment and intuition increase. Promised qualities like compassion and equanimity start to manifest. Scriptures come to life and reveal deeper meanings.

 

As you become more discerning with teachers and teachings (or learn to trust your teacher more based on what you have verified) and this shows up in your practice. Your practice becomes less about what you heard or read and more about what you have directly experienced.  Fleeting negative states become more stable, and stable negative states become more fleeting.
 

Your habitual patterns and ways of seeing begin to change. Your view expands, your conduct becomes more benevolent, and your suffering decreases. You become familiar with another way of being—- as taught in alignment with the scriptures and oral tradition. What was ideal starts to become real. You start to catch glimpses of the coherence of the vision. 

So I would say it is more about recognizing what you have already studied, heard, and verified: in many cases, recognizing ignorance and suffering.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[awaken]

Imagination, Illusion, and interior are three different states
Imagination is to use the brain to imagine, use acquired consciousness, and use force to imagine
Illusion is to enter a trance state, the brain does not use force, nor does it deliberately use the acquired consciousness, but it is an image produced in a way similar to a dream, which belongs to the illusion
Inner scenes such as mandala are produced from second-yang-birth, and yin and yang must alternate to appear. This is the real inner scene

 

想像力，幻境，內景是三種不同的狀態
想像力是用大腦去想像，使用後天意識，用力去想像出來的
幻境是進入恍惚狀態，大腦並沒有用力，也沒有刻意使用後天意識，但是那是類似夢境的方式產生的影像，屬於幻境
像曼陀羅之類的內景是產生於陽生，必須陰陽交替才能出現，這才是真正的內景

 

Because the cultivation methods learned by Westerners do not alternate between yin and yang, almost no one can produce mandala
Only those who have not followed the teacher to learn Taoism have the opportunity to produce a real mandala
On the contrary, those who practice Taoism with their teachers will not be able to produce mandalas.
Taoist mandalas are often called lotus flowers or flowers.

 

因為西方人所學習到的修煉方法都是沒有在陰陽之間交替的，所以幾乎沒什麼人能夠產生曼陀羅
只有那種沒有跟著老師學道家修煉的人，才有機會產生真正的曼陀羅
反而跟著老師學道家修煉的人，是產生不出來曼陀羅的。
道家的曼陀羅通常稱為蓮花或者花。

Edited January 8, 2023 by awaken

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

18 hours ago, awaken said:

Only those who have not followed the teacher to learn Taoism have the opportunity to produce a real mandala

On the contrary, those who practice Taoism with their teachers will not be able to produce mandalas.

But what about the students who follow you? Can they produce a real mandala?