Visualisation - any good?

[Apech]

10 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

That is a somewhat troublesome statement for a few reasons

 

#1 Both have instruction in traditions that have existed for said amounts of time

#2 Have you seen these sages? Or are you just going on what are essentially stories? I don't mean this disrespectfully, but you can head right on up to any event Damo or Adam run, and see what they are all about. 

#3  If these stories are true, How do you know those teachings are presented as they were taken to get there? Does it require more faith? 

 

Having had some access to a very old Buddhist discipline, Adam and Damo's sentiments were shared, and emphasized. By a person who has no knowledge of either of them.

 

However, there has already been something published on this which has, yet again confused the cause effect relationship and claimed that a bunch of visualizations are needed, when in fact the actual practice was nothing like that at all.

 

I'm not surprised really, but then, this has only been happening since forever.

 

It doesn't take long to see where Adam and Damo are coming from, when you've literally seen it play out in another area that neither are involved in (or perhaps not even aware of. I'm not sure)

 

I think Adam was right, in that some of the diagrams of channels, drops and chakras etc. are meant as aide memoires and not for visualisation.  Like having a road map to help you place things in relation to each other.

 

You might use an image to place concentration say on a Dan Tien or a particular channel I guess, but once sensitivity is developed I can't see why you would continue.

 

Having said that I was taught years ago something called Iron Mountain Lineage meditation which is a long series of visualisations - I used to practice it years ago and it did work - but I was taught by a strict Chinese gentleman from Hong Kong who made us do at least an hour or hour and a half standing posture before he would teach us anything.  I'd completely forgotten about it till this conversation!

 

 

[liminal_luke]

13 hours ago, freeform said:

I’m curious why people get so sensitive around visualisation…

 

 

I think it's an interpersonal snafu.  Turns out quite a few of us think visualisation can be helpful, at least for some people in some circumstances, but for the most part Team Visualization is largely silent: there aren't a lot of Bums loudly exclaiming the benefits of visualisation practices.  Team Never Visualize, on the other hand, is a camp to be reckoned with -- vocal, self-assured, a touch dismissive of dissent.  Perhaps the team members just want to help beginners avoid the traps they themselves fell into in their misguided youth?  I'm sure everyone is well-intentioned.  Still, the anti-visualization camp can sometimes come off as a little doctrinaire, almost like members of a political party who can't imagine how someone could be so foolish as to disagree with their agenda.  That's probably overstating my case but I think there's a whiff of that.  Take Adam Mizner's statement (my possibly inexact paraphrase) -- if you use imagination you'll end up with imaginary results.  It may be true but can you hear the slightly aggressive edge?

Edited January 3, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Neirong]

There are a lot of people talking smack about Visualization on this forum. It seems to be happening for some time here; surprisingly, much milder positions are shown in this particular thread, as a visual poll shows "the loudest voices are not the majority."

I treat them as I would Flat Earthers. Flat Earthers exist, they have their own opinion, and it is quite an ignorant and arrogant bunch of people actively trying to impose the "truth" on others; it is pointless to discuss or try to disprove a Flat Earther. They can go on for hours providing countless arguments why Earth is flat, and why you are so stupid if you don't agree with it.

 

Unlike neigong and qigong, visualization practices are not easy and not accessible to everyone. You can't just sit here or stand for 3 hours, as a test to get accepted to "high level teacher of a secret lineage". This is not a kindergarten.

 

People with weak minds and closed higher chakras won't be able to do even the most simple Visualization.
It is no wonder, Teachers with no attainment in meditation - all hate Visualization.
You hate what you do not understand, and you also hate people who shake and shatter your cultish worldview/delusional bubble by the mere presence in the informational field.
While their hatred and contempt are spilling towards everyone with different "views" (classic cultish behavior), what is even more appalling is the derogatory remarks about ancient traditions and cultures.

According to them, Ancient Yogi, Buddhists, Hinduists, Christians, Sufi, Tibetan Lamas, and adepts of Magic did not know a thing about cultivation, and new-age teachers like Adam Mizner have found the ultimate truth.
Which is something along the line "stretch uncomfortably".

This kind of desecration of ancient arts and masters does not go without consequences.

[forestofclarity]

12 hours ago, freeform said:

Wouldn't dropping visualisation in this context be taking us closer to meditation (or even just stillness)…

 

Depends on what you mean by meditation and what your goal is. If you think the goal of meditation, like the Samkhyas, is to get rid of all thinking, then yes. And if that is truly your goal, or even similar to your goal, then there is no reason to remain in the world -- time for taking monastic vows.

 

What about non-monastics? 

 

From a Mahayana, Tantric point of view, initially developed by and for non-monastics, the problem is generally not with appearances, but with clinging. To understand this, you have to understand the Mahyana view is aimed at helping all sentient beings achieve liberation, including householders. On top of this there is the shared Tantric view (shared with Shaivites and Advaitins for example) that everything is divine, but we are ignorant of it. 

 

So there would be no reason to reject visualization out of hand. Nor is there a reason to reject thinking, feeling, and all the wonderful things that make us human. If your goal is to become familiar with the mind's processes, and how it fabricates concepts and clings to them, then using visualization would make sense. In addition, visualization works with allowing one to maintain the meditative view in the midst of thinking, which is also very important if you are a lay person who has to think during the day. 

 

Of course, some people think that Mahayana and Tantra is bunch of nonsense, and that's ok too--- there's enough room for everyone in my view. In fact, some Mahayana and Tantric folks practice very much like Theravada with monastic vows and deep concentration (and Theravada people practice in Mahayana and Tantric ways, it is not all one thing). And keep in mind that not every Vajrayana path uses or even emphasizes visualization, it is one tool among many. 

[Shadow_self]

47 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

I think Adam was right, in that some of the diagrams of channels, drops and chakras etc. are meant as aide memoires and not for visualisation.  Like having a road map to help you place things in relation to each other.

 

You might use an image to place concentration say on a Dan Tien or a particular channel I guess, but once sensitivity is developed I can't see why you would continue.

 

That's an interesting assessment. Are you saying it can be used as a gauge of proximity? If so I can see where you are coming from.

 

Maps are useful  

 

My experiences tell me that these things, are very much something you can see. The sensitivity isn't so much a case of feeling as a case of, quite literally, seeing them. It is a bit hard to explain in a short sentence, but overall I would say that the channels are perceived as silver threads, like a cobweb type thing  

 

Moreover, to follow up on this, I would say that this skill of subtle vision is pretty central to work that comes a little later.

 

So to contrast, in my understanding, it is less about proximity, more an issue of developing ones subtle vision to a higher capacity, such  that there is a level of connection and resonance into the the more "etheric" aspects of our makeup   If you have the subtle vision and internal sensitivity lined up, then you can see, feel and experience these things.

 

 

47 minutes ago, Apech said:

Having said that I was taught years ago something called Iron Mountain Lineage meditation which is a long series of visualisations - I used to practice it years ago and it did work - but I was taught by a strict Chinese gentleman from Hong Kong who made us do at least an hour or hour and a half standing posture before he would teach us anything.  I'd completely forgotten about it till this conversation!

 

Im curious, what were these practices taught for?  Do you mean that you would stand first, and then engage in that practice? 

[freeform]

30 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Team Never Visualize, on the other hand, is a camp to be reckoned with -- vocal, self-assured, a touch dismissive of dissent. 

Yeah - I think I’m probably in this camp more than the other.

 

I’m quite specific where the ‘never visualise’ part fits. For my personal practice visualisation I’d estimate formed 0.001% of overall practice time… actually probably a lot less.

 

I see people using visualisation for stuff that it doesn’t work for (working with qi or meditative absorption).

 

I’m kinda strong in my stance too… but here’s the thing - why am I strong on this stance?

 

Is it coz I win brownie points? Or get something kind of self righteous pleasure out of it? 
 

I don’t think so… I find myself having to drag the words out of me for like 100th time… and feeling bad that I might hurt peoples feelings.

 

For me it’s more a case of trying to further this weird cultivation thing that we do!
 

I think it’s such a shame when people waste years imagining white lights or imagining microcosmic orbits - when they could be getting the real deal with the same input of time and effort.

 

I see my younger self earnestly doing this stuff for hours and hours every single day - wasting time, effort and ending in disappointment.
 

And I want to help that young dude avoid this pitfall.

 

When young, we have time, we have vigour and we have enthusiasm… and it’s such a shame that this is directed into a dead end because some dude wanted to earn book royalties.

[Shadow_self]

44 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Team Visualization is largely silent: there aren't a lot of Bums loudly exclaiming the benefits of visualisation practices.  Team Never Visualize, on the other hand, is a camp to be reckoned with -- vocal, self-assured, a touch dismissive of dissent.

 

Do we get jerseys?   Please tell me we get jerseys  

 

[liminal_luke]

1 minute ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Do we get jerseys?   Please tell me we get jerseys  

 

 

Of course!  And as captain you get to pick the color.

[Taoist Texts]

17 hours ago, Apech said:

your views on visualisation in meditation etc.

I voted yes. reading through this topic i was surprised to  not see an obvious observation so let me post it. As every craft visualization has a secret to it which makes it useful. So when it is done using that secret then it is useful and when it is not then it is not. Whats the secret? It is what's the visualization is applied to.

[blue eyed snake]

I was taught to meditate/ practice without visualization

and checked box other.

 

How can I judge something I do not know. I can well imagine that it can help in the beginning to keep the monkeymind busy so you're not starting to ruminate on things. Also things like maps like Apech mentioned.

 

sometimes there is 'visual scenery'

when these visions repeat themselves, do they repeat "by themselves" or does my memory of them make me visualize them.

it's not clear-cut to me

[Barnaby]

42 minutes ago, freeform said:

I think it’s such a shame when people waste years imagining white lights or imagining microcosmic orbits - when they could be getting the real deal with the same input of time and effort.

 

I see.

 

So as I understand it, you're saying that visualisation plays no part in your understanding of your cultivation practice.

 

I understand that it does play a part in other cultivation practices, shared by millions over several centuries: Tantric ones, for instance.

 

Would it not be less dogmatic to say: I do not believe visualisation to be an effective method in my practice?

 

 

[Apech]

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

That's an interesting assessment. Are you saying it can be used as a gauge of proximity? If so I can see where you are coming from.

 

Maps are useful  

 

I am perhaps influenced by the many years I spent studying Ancient Egyptian texts.  For them the spiritual path was like a journey across varying terrain.  So sometimes a wet-land, sometimes a river, sometimes a desert, sometimes underground caverns and so on.  They used everyday objects like rivers and mountains to describe the hidden inner world.  One of the things they produced were maps of the hidden inner world intended for both the living and dead souls to be able to traverse it successfully.

 

So as practitioners it is often possible to see our local position but be unaware of the overall big picture.  By means of maps and diagrams you can place certain experiences in the grand scheme of things and make progress more quickly.  This is how I see it.  So some diagrams, mandalas and so on should be used this way, I think.

 

46 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

My experiences tell me that these things, are very much something you can see. The sensitivity isn't so much a case of feeling as a case of, quite literally, seeing them. It is a bit hard to explain in a short sentence, but overall I would say that the channels are perceived as silver threads, like a cobweb type thing  

 

Moreover, to follow up on this, I would say that this skill of subtle vision is pretty central to work that comes a little later.

 

So to contrast, in my understanding, it is less about proximity, more an issue of developing ones subtle vision to a higher capacity, such  that there is a level of connection and resonance into the the more "etheric" aspects of our makeup   If you have the subtle vision and internal sensitivity lined up, then you can see, feel and experience these things.

 

 

 

Im curious, what were these practices taught for?  Do you mean that you would stand first, and then engage in that practice? 

 

We spent several weeks just doing standing.  Then we did breath counting - and he would test us as to how well we could concentrate and follow breath.  Until he was satisfied we could do these things he wouldn't teach us anything else.  He would also shout at us and occasionally bash someone (not me mercifully) with a stick and grunt something in Chinese.  He was best known for the fact that for certain qi gong he wanted you to contract the muscles round the anus.  At this point he would shout 'tight up your arseholes!' very loudly.  He was great - but he went back to Hong Kong - so that was that.

[old3bob]

besides this or that "meditation" method...  visualization is obviously a tool of the mind to create things that starts with a thought form and then bringing it into manifestation.  (a carpenter could not do their job very well without seeing a project in their minds eye)

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

 

I’m kinda strong in my stance too… but here’s the thing - why am I strong on this stance?

 

Is it coz I win brownie points? Or get something kind of self righteous pleasure out of it? 
 

I don’t think so… I find myself having to drag the words out of me for like 100th time… and feeling bad that I might hurt peoples feelings.

 

For me it’s more a case of trying to further this weird cultivation thing that we do!
 

 

Yeah, I know.  I think all of the people taking a stance against visualization intend to be helpful -- and perhaps they are helpful!  It's not my intention to call anybody out.  I just wanted to suggest where some of the sensitivity among visualizers may be coming from.

[Piyadasi]

(Skip this long post if you don't care about Vajrayana / Tibetan Buddhism at all!)

 

Visualization and Tantric practice often get mentioned together. Unsavory as I find this topic, I'll add a few points I rarely see mentioned.

If you're familiar with Tibetan Buddhism, you might be familiar with the "greatest Tibetan saint" Milarepa. He has a work attributed to him commonly called The Hundred Thousand Songs of Milarepa. I believe it is a great book/collection, and rather revered in Tibet. It is long, more than 60 chapters I think. In it the word "visualization" appears maybe three times. The words "nadi-prana path" appear at least once if not more almost every chapter, the words nadi, prana and bindu also appear separately a lot more. In fact it's almost all he talks about. Samadhi and things like "nature of the mind" is also frequently mentioned. Yogic conduct is also emphasized. The other lineage biographies of Marpa, Rechungpa or even Naropa and Tilopa are much the same.

If you read the early writings of the 84 mahasiddhas, like Saraha for example, or other dohas, you never see the words for visualization or imagination. In fact, most of them, all they talk about is single pointed meditation or "resting in the nature of the mind beyond conceptualization".

Milarepa's main practice was generating and developing the blazing fire of Tummo. One of the signs of basic success at this practice is things like being able to walk around in the Tibetan winter in a single cotton cloth because of the heat, or not needing to eat or sleep much because of the inner nourishment from the development of the subtle body and of the Amrita.

The visualizer camp is massive. So many people do the practice like that, a huge pool of practitioners. Has anyone been able to produce anything like that, especially in the West? The only guy I know about who can reliably and publicly producing anything even remotely similar is Wim Hof. He undoubtedly bastardized the teachings, but he bastardized them in the "right" way hilariously enough, that is with/towards the body. The only guy who can produce anything like results, doesn't use imagination, he uses breath and body mechanics. I'm not saying he represents tantric practice, definitely not... but maybe something to consider.

Another point with Vajrayana is the history of why there is even visualization in the tradition in the first place. I wonder if people are aware of the history of this at all?

Visualization came into play basically only because when Vajrayana pratice was becoming more popular and entering the mainstream, it came from a lineage of wandering lay yogis into a tradition of scholarly monasticism. Most of the tantric rituals were completely against norm and monastic vows, involving things like alcohol, strange ways of acting, or contact with the opposite sex, all completely unacceptable by both society and monastic rules. (That was kind of the point.) So one day, some genius had the idea: what if instead of doing the thing we instead visualize/imagine the thing, ie. ritual sex with a consort, or meat and alcohol usage in ritual feasts. No action, no breaking of monastic vows, and we still get all the benefit right? Cause it's all mind anyway or something. The rest is history...

Just some food for thought.

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

I am perhaps influenced by the many years I spent studying Ancient Egyptian texts.  For them the spiritual path was like a journey across varying terrain.  So sometimes a wet-land, sometimes a river, sometimes a desert, sometimes underground caverns and so on.  They used everyday objects like rivers and mountains to describe the hidden inner world.  One of the things they produced were maps of the hidden inner world intended for both the living and dead souls to be able to traverse it successfully.

 

So as practitioners it is often possible to see our local position but be unaware of the overall big picture.  By means of maps and diagrams you can place certain experiences in the grand scheme of things and make progress more quickly.  This is how I see it.  So some diagrams, mandalas and so on should be used this way, I think.

 

In some ways similar to the Nei Jing Tu then?   I find it more than interesting that a lot of this stuff is scattered throughout texts, and sometimes even in a simpler form, works of drama or theater

 

My take on Mandala and images of that nature, I know some people use them to as an object of meditation. I can see how this might be a thing. Im not privy to people visualising them though

 

I can say there is one ritualistic practice I have done that when engaged in properly can give rise to these types of things, sacred patterns, weird geometry and whatnot. But this doesn't involve in using the mind to generate them.

 

They can just arise a part of the ritual.  Its quite interesting to see them pop up  

 

 

1 hour ago, Apech said:

 

We spent several weeks just doing standing.  Then we did breath counting - and he would test us as to how well we could concentrate and follow breath.  Until he was satisfied we could do these things he wouldn't teach us anything else.  He would also shout at us and occasionally bash someone (not me mercifully) with a stick and grunt something in Chinese.  He was best known for the fact that for certain qi gong he wanted you to contract the muscles round the anus.  At this point he would shout 'tight up your arseholes!' very loudly.  He was great - but he went back to Hong Kong - so that was that.

 

Oh I see, that all sounds very much like some stuff. I was wondering however, how the visualizations you mentioned factor in here

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

In some ways similar to the Nei Jing Tu then?   I find it more than interesting that a lot of this stuff is scattered throughout texts, and sometimes even in a simpler form, works of drama or theater

 

My take on Mandala and images of that nature, I know some people use them to as an object of meditation. I can see how this might be a thing. Im not privy to people visualising them though

 

I can say there is one ritualistic practice I have done that when engaged in properly can give rise to these types of things, sacred patterns, weird geometry and whatnot. But this doesn't involve in using the mind to generate them.

 

They can just arise a part of the ritual.  Its quite interesting to see them pop up  

 

 

 

Oh I see, that all sounds very much like some stuff. I was wondering however, how the visualizations you mentioned factor in here

 

The visualisations were a mediation set which he taught in stages over maybe eight weeks - he taught me to the level that I could teach it.  I can't list the process on here because I have to teach as he did,  in person and so on.

 

 

[freeform]

2 hours ago, Barnaby said:

 

I see.

 

So as I understand it, you're saying that visualisation plays no part in your understanding of your cultivation practice.

 

I understand that it does play a part in other cultivation practices, shared by millions over several centuries: Tantric ones, for instance.

 

Would it not be less dogmatic to say: I do not believe visualisation to be an effective method in my practice?

 

 

No not quite.
 

Visualisation does play a very small role in my practice firstly.

 

Secondly my statement isn’t only focused on my specific personal practice.

 

After having cultivated Qi, after having had various (admittedly minor, but to me Earth-shattering) attainments in Neidan and Jhanna - I know for a fact that visualisation cannot play a part in genuine Neidan, Qi cultivation or meditative absorption… it’s just a mechanistic impossibility. Yes you can certainly have elements of visualisation in a practice - but the main mechanic is not based on visualisation at all.

 

My experience is based on 25ish years of doing this stuff… 15 of which have been full-time… and I also take into account my teacher’s experience as well as the dozens of different teachers I’ve met from having dedicated a large part of my life to this.

 

I’m quite specific in what I’ve said - the conditions for my statement. I’m not talking about all cultivation - but specific subsets.

There are certainly practices with tons of visualisation - I’ve come across a genuinely advanced ‘sorcerer’ in the Shangqing sect who uses various visualisations for his work (though qi generation used no visualisation in his practice)… 

 

But again - imagining Neidan processes… imagining nimitta type experiences… imagining qi movement - none of that achieves anything more than imaginary results  

[Nungali]

I voted yes, being totally selfish and coming from my own experience - I am not going to comment on if its  any good for others . 
I voted yes as it works for me .

 

I have been doing a fair bit of tricky building and renovations lately .... I dont know how  I could have without visualization skills . Some times  I am thinking of a way to  do something and then the right way 'comes into my mind ' by visualization .

 

I think its a basic human skill  and the specific type of visualizations  we can make , and bring them into reality, is what makes us different from all the other animals .( and so as not to start a debate about that ... I am referring to our technology ) .

[Barnaby]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

No not quite.
 

Visualisation does play a very small role in my practice firstly.

 

Secondly my statement isn’t only focused on my specific personal practice.

 

After having cultivated Qi, after having had various (admittedly minor, but to me Earth-shattering) attainments in Neidan and Jhanna - I know for a fact that visualisation cannot play a part in genuine Neidan, Qi cultivation or meditative absorption… it’s just a mechanistic impossibility. Yes you can certainly have elements of visualisation in a practice - but the main mechanic is not based on visualisation at all.

 

My experience is based on 25ish years of doing this stuff… 15 of which have been full-time… and I also take into account my teacher’s experience as well as the dozens of different teachers I’ve met from having dedicated a large part of my life to this.

 

I’m quite specific in what I’ve said - the conditions for my statement. I’m not talking about all cultivation - but specific subsets.

There are certainly practices with tons of visualisation - I’ve come across a genuinely advanced ‘sorcerer’ in the Shangqing sect who uses various visualisations for his work (though qi generation used no visualisation in his practice)… 

 

But again - imagining Neidan processes… imagining nimitta type experiences… imagining qi movement - none of that achieves anything more than imaginary results  

 

I think we're talking at cross purposes.

 

I think I have a rough idea of the kind of practices you're engaged in. I think you may have a rough idea of the kind of practices I'm currently engaged in. They're broadly similar, although certainly not identical.

 

For me, visualisation has absolutely no role to play in those practices – outside of the most basic "Can you hold a red triangle in your mind with unwavering attention for 30 minutes"-style concentration exercise.

 

But that statement of mine is specific to those practices of which I have working knowledge. There may be other practices – of which I am unaware – in which it plays a significant role. 

 

So I'm uncomfortable with blanket statements like "Never visualise". Or "If you use imagination, you'll get imaginary results" (even if I regard that to be true with respect to my current practices). Or "Vajrayana is shit because they use visualisation" (paraphrasing obvs).

 

4 hours ago, freeform said:

I see my younger self earnestly doing this stuff for hours and hours every single day - wasting time, effort and ending in disappointment.
 

And I want to help that young dude avoid this pitfall.

 

When young, we have time, we have vigour and we have enthusiasm… and it’s such a shame that this is directed into a dead end because some dude wanted to earn book royalties.

 

I'd like to comment on this too, if I may. And I'm not trying to be clever.

 

It sounds like you're regretting that experience. And yet, that was your path. That was the path that led to the path you find yourself on now. That was the way in which Change manifested for you.

 

Who's to say it might not turn out the same way for some other guy (or girl ) ?  

 

 

[dwai]

Yes visualization is useful in preparatory stages of certain types of practices. I won’t call it meditation proper, but learning to meditate. 
 

I’ll give one example. You look at a candle flame, and then close your eyes and visualize the flame exactly like it is IRL. What it does is develops your concentration. If you are able to hold that image in your mind for a minute, you’re doing quite well imho. Longer the better. That is one type of visualization. 
 

Another type is in qigong/taichi - visualizing a taichi ball while doing the forms. If everything else is done correctly under the guidance of a good teacher, within a few weeks the ball will become tangible. If you squeeze it it’ll push back. If you try to split it by pulling it apart it will resist. This is a way to activate our field, expand it, make it grow. Moreover it becomes a very effective vehicle to apply martial power or healing. 

[doc benway]

reconsidered

[Lairg]

All of the 5 (or 12) senses can be developed on every plane and subplane.  The sequence of development varies amongst humans.

 

Relevant subplane substance needs to be accrued and formed into sense organs by practice.   Visualisation is one such practice

 

 

[freeform]

26 minutes ago, steve said:

Visualization can be effectively used to assist in accessing meditative absorption. An example of this is the practice of guru yoga in dzogchen. Dzogchen teachers sometimes make statements like ‘there is no dzogchen without guru yoga.’ It is not the visualization per se that is directly involved in meditative absorption. What seems to be at play is taking a mind that is totally absorbed in a stable and clear visualization and then dissolving that visualization abruptly. 

Yeah that’s interesting, thanks.

 

My experience of meditative absorption is samadhi or on (very) rare occasions Jhanna…

 

In my experience these cannot be practices… they also can’t be achieved through mechanical means… there’s no practice that leads to samadhi (probably a controversial statement).

 

Any and all contrivances stop access to these states. Even the tiniest ‘fly in the ointment’ of the mind - any subtle unconscious striving or attempt to achieve anything at all will simply lead to mental ‘sense-consciousness’ type experience.
 

Visualisation would be like an angry hippo in the ointment from this perspective 😅

 

All ‘practices’ can do is prepare the ground for absorption to arise of its own accord (if I’m lucky). Creating a body and mind that is fit for these profound states to arise.

 

This assisting you’re talking about sounds much like these preparatory practices if I understand correctly.

 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Barnaby said:

Or "Vajrayana is shit because they use visualisation" (paraphrasing obvs).

Haha - yeah I mean I’d never say that… I felt that in Damo’s interview with the Vajrayana fellow he was saying that there’s a key element missing (Qi) in Vajrayana practice… and it’s this missing element that is making the visualisation aspect impotent.

 

Quote

"If you use imagination, you'll get imaginary results”

This statement on the other hand, is a different kettle of fish.

 

I feel it has some truth to it - as the results of imagination will manifest at the level of mind/imagination (sense-consciousness) - and not on a physical or spiritual… And that’s not necessarily a bad thing - sense consciousness is clearly useful…