Visualisation - any good?

[awaken]

The Vajrayana has indeed left a lot of inner scenes of real people, but if a Vajrayana teacher does not use Madhyamaka to teach, but uses visualization to teach, that is also the wrong way

 

 

金剛乘確實留下了很多真人階段的內景圖，但是如果一個金剛乘老師不是用中觀來教學，而是用觀想來教學，那同樣也是錯誤的道路

 

 

https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/zh-tw/密宗

Edited January 5, 2023 by awaken

[doc benway]

30 minutes ago, Creation said:

As far as internal skill is concerned, seeing as some Tibetans have it (rainbow body being an extreme example), the question is, did the ones who have developed actually internal skill do so relying entirely on visualization, or was it a type of training wheels that they eventually discarded?

 

IMO/E

No and no.

Visualization, at least in the Bön teachings, is never an isolated practice, and I don’t use that word lightly. Those who become proficient/transformed through tantra don’t often abandon it as it is so effective and the benefits so worthwhile to others and to one’s own personal growth as a practitioner.

[refugeindharma]

7 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

Interesting quote from Adam's book:

Found the book, it's on his Discover Mind website for free: https://discovermind.com/static/books/Looking at No Thing - Awakening the Eye of Knowing, by Adam Mizner.pdf 

 

Also when he mentioned this in the interview and his teacher emphasizing the lokuttara Jhanna / Samadhi, it reminded me of the Shurangama Sutra where it is mentioned, taught, or emphasized that one should strive for genuine samadhi that is irrespective of causes and conditions (aka the "normal" jhanas)  

 

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by refugeindharma

[Vajra Fist]

8 hours ago, Apech said:

First from a technical point of view the Mahayana school which is related to jhanas is Zen.

 

Zen person here - I'd like to say that in Japanese traditions jhana is not the object. I was taught that practicing with eyes closed as in vishuddimaga traditions, is 'makyo' (literally 'devil's cave). In other words its very easy to get distracted by illusory phenomena with eyes closed.

 

Instead eyes are open during meditation practice. In that sense, jhana doesn't arise, but samadhi does.

[C T]

25 minutes ago, Vajra Fist said:

 

Zen person here - I'd like to say that in Japanese traditions jhana is not the object. I was taught that practicing with eyes closed as in vishuddimaga traditions, is 'makyo' (literally 'devil's cave). In other words its very easy to get distracted by illusory phenomena with eyes closed.

 

Instead eyes are open during meditation practice. In that sense, jhana doesn't arise, but samadhi does.

Non Zen entity here 😄

 

My assumption had always been that dhyana, jhana, zen and ch'an means exactly the same, and, given the right application of methods, that different types of samadhi remain/arise, depending on which jhana is dropped/released.

 

My other assumption is that, compared to jhannic states, which are in a sense contractive, samadhi on the other hand is supposedly  expansive, and is therefore a fruit of practice (and not the path... jhannas are), although some would assert that, viewed with greater subtlety, the path IS the fruit, which isn't incorrect in the least. 

 

Open to correction always. 

[Apech]

"Do you practice regularly?"

 

"Now and Zen."

[Shadow_self]

9 hours ago, dwai said:

I can tell  

 

Please do tell us then  

[Barnaby]

47 minutes ago, Apech said:

"Now and Zen."

 

Initiated into the French Buddhist tradition, I see...

[Creation]

8 hours ago, steve said:

 

IMO/E

No and no.

Visualization, at least in the Bön teachings, is never an isolated practice, and I don’t use that word lightly. Those who become proficient/transformed through tantra don’t often abandon it as it is so effective and the benefits so worthwhile to others and to one’s own personal growth as a practitioner.

Oh, I should specify, for completion stage specifically, eg tummo and manipulations of the drops, and also thogal, because those are the practices related to "internal skill".  For instance, in anuyoga visualization is less important even in the generation stage, one would expect this is even more the case for the completion stage, that as genuine feeling develops, the visualization falls aside. Not that visualization might not still be used in other ways.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Creation

[dwai]

4 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Please do tell us then  

Adam is at a higher level than Damo in terms of what I consider direct knowledge of “true nature”. Damo is too caught up in his theories to recognize the truth.  

No amount of alchemy can replace the development of subtle intelligence, which can only come through Self inquiry. Without substantial subtle intelligence, one cannot develop discernment between real and unreal. If one is unable to have discernment, they cannot recognize their true nature. Without realizing true nature, they will be stuck navigating the rabbit holes of methods and powers. 

[awaken]

If you only practice the current Zen, it will be a superficial and superficial, unable to prove the deep meditation

As long as there is no deep meditation, the so-called wisdom is just imagination
Because the wisdom mentioned by the Buddha is not the principle of doing things in the world

The Noble Eightfold Path taught by the Buddha must include Right Concentration

Those who have not achieved true meditation cannot understand the true meaning of cultivation

 

如果只有修煉當下說的禪學，就會流於一種表面的膚淺，無法證明深入的禪定

只要沒有深入的禪定，所謂的智慧都只是想像
因為佛陀所說的智慧，並不是世間做人做事的道理

佛陀所講的八正道一定包含正定

沒有達到真正的禪定者，是無法理解真正的修煉奧義

 

 

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, Creation said:

Oh, I should specify, for completion stage specifically, eg tummo and manipulations of the drops, and also thogal, because those are the practices related to "internal skill".  For instance, in anuyoga visualization is less important even in the generation stage, one would expect this is even more the case for the completion stage, that as genuine feeling develops, the visualization falls aside. Not that visualization might not still be used in other ways.

 

I would be a bit careful about adding thodgal to the discussion as it does not involved visualization at all and could lead to confusion.

 

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, dwai said:

Adam is at a higher level than Damo in terms of what I consider direct knowledge of “true nature”. Damo is too caught up in his theories to recognize the truth.  

 

Oh what you consider? Fair enough   I thought you had some objective form of assessing ones level (I dont mean that sarcastically)

 

Curious about what those theories are though? 

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

No amount of alchemy can replace the development of subtle intelligence, which can only come through Self inquiry. Without substantial subtle intelligence, one cannot develop discernment between real and unreal. If one is unable to have discernment, they cannot recognize their true nature. Without realizing true nature, they will be stuck navigating the rabbit holes of methods and powers. 

 

Interesting because even though Damo is who I learn methods from, Adam is someone who speaks in a manner closer to the other teacher I work with.

 

Honestly, I find Damo a person who is about as lighthearted as they come. Having actually spoken to him, he seems largely concerned most with helping people and sharing what he knows, and he has certainly done both for me. Not sure that really matches your opinion of someone chasing methods and powers. He seemed more interesting in  making sure others don't fall down one of the innumerable rabbit holes of methods that don't lead one further along the path.

 

Of course, everyone's entitled to agree, disagree, but that's always been how he's struck me. I wonder if people seen all he does behind the scenes, would their opinion shift?

[forestofclarity]

11 hours ago, Creation said:

Perhaps Mahamudra and Dzogchen practitioners will see why he finds common ground between those practices and what he practices, given that quote? But the major (very major indeed) difference that I can discern is the fact that he is saying to completely absorb into this empty clarity, whereas Mahamudra and Dzogchen emphasize seeing it as nondual from it's objects, what Mizner calls "thinking you know water when you have only tasted it mixed with milk."

 

You will find similar approaches within Vajrayana, for example, B. Allan Wallace. His definitions of jhana are similar. It is very difficult. Even people in full time retreat do fall short. These states are not unfamiliar to Vajrayana. 

 

I think Adam's view makes sense within his tradition, but it appears to be based on the assumptions of the tradition. For example, in the metaphor, two similar but qualitatively different things are used that can be easily mixed but difficult to separate: milk and water. This makes sense within the Theravada view, but not the view of Mahayana in my opinion.

 

If the X and Y are not essentially different, then the metaphor does not hold. Let's say you are trying to learn about gold, and you into a gold smith's shop. You see gold candles, gold necklaces, gold rings. You're not going to say "Where's the gold?" because the gold is everywhere. Even if the gold is shaped into very beautiful and intricate patterns, it is still gold. 

 

Now let say you walk into the workshop, and you see the smith melting down the gold so that it is formless. This doesn't mean you've discovered "true" gold and the other gold is "false," it is just another state of gold. Even if you keep that gold melted for a week, there is no more and no purer gold than when it was a ring. Nor is the gold of use in that state: you can't take it with you, wear it, give it to your lover, etc. Once you realize gold is gold, it doesn't matter whether it is in a specific shape or not.

 

Everything flows from the view in my mind (Step one on the eightfold path). 

 

 

 

 

[dwai]

44 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Oh what you consider? Fair enough   I thought you had some objective form of assessing ones level (I dont mean that sarcastically)

 

Curious about what those theories are though? 

Learn Advaita Vedanta or vajrayana Buddhism to know more about it  

44 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Interesting because even though Damo is who I learn methods from, Adam is someone who speaks in a manner closer to the other teacher I work with.

 

Honestly, I find Damo a person who is about as lighthearted as they come. Having actually spoken to him, he seems largely concerned most with helping people and sharing what he knows, and he has certainly done both for me. Not sure that really matches your opinion of someone chasing methods and powers. He seemed more interesting in  making sure others don't fall down one of the innumerable rabbit holes of methods that don't lead one further along the path.

 

Of course, everyone's entitled to agree, disagree, but that's always been how he's struck me. I wonder if people seen all he does behind the scenes, would their opinion shift?

You know the thing they say in preflight instructions? “Make sure your oxygen mask is on before you help others?” - that’s applicable for spiritual traditions too (not being sarcastic). 

[Shadow_self]

28 minutes ago, dwai said:

Learn Advaita Vedanta or vajrayana Buddhism to know more about it  

 

Cant speak to the former, but the latter

 

Any person I know who showed any level of attainment (and like I said before they could be counted on one hand with fingers remaining) the methods shared some crossover with YJJ.

 

Actually, they were worse. They were  more uncomfortable. more strenuous and more forceful

 

I hear people talk all the time about the visuals and rituals of the latter. I never see discussions about trul khor, the standing practices and so forth.

 

Im not saying my experience is gospel, I dont even practice these things. But those who did, those things were part of the bedrock

 

 

28 minutes ago, dwai said:

You know the thing they say in preflight instructions? “Make sure your oxygen mask is on before you help others?” - that’s applicable for spiritual traditions too (not being sarcastic). 

Like I said, everyone's entitled to agree/disagree.  I just know what I've seen Damo do and continue to do  

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Apech said:

"Do you practice regularly?"

 

"Now and Zen."

 

 

[doc benway]

33 minutes ago, dwai said:

You know the thing they say in preflight instructions? “Make sure your oxygen mask is on before you help others?” - that’s applicable for spiritual traditions too (not being sarcastic). 

 

My comments below are not directed at anyone particular.

I'll leave it to all of you to evaluate your own potential teachers.

Dwai's comment is important and equally applicable to spiritual and martial practices.

 

When we progress in a practice there hopefully comes a point where we feel we get it, we understand the mechanics and the process.

If we do it right, we begin to see the positive effects of our training in our lives and relationships.

At that point people will sometimes feel a pressing desire to share these practices so that others can experience similar benefits.

Some will even act on that without the knowledge or support of their teacher(s), assuming they even have one.

This can be a trap!

It can lead to doing ourselves and others a serious disservice!

 

My own experience is that if we continue practicing, in time we will come up against challenges in life that test our practice and understanding. We may begin to question ourselves, our teacher, the tradition, etc... We may identify subtle or not so subtle things in ourselves that need attention. As others have pointed out, this is NOT a linear process.

There may come a point where we realize... I'm not ready or not interested to teach at all!

Equally important, if we do not have a certain degree of realization ourselves, there will come a time when we will not be able to support our students or we may misguide them. They may surpass our realization or the obstacles they encounter may be beyond our ability to understand or address. 

The worst situation is if we do not recognize this and continue to misguide ourselves and others. 

 

IMO, this is all a normal process of development and maturation of our practice, our understanding, our ability to share the teachings, and our fruition. We come to see that this is truly a lifelong process. We begin to have a deeper respect for our teacher(s) and, in particular, the lineage and teachings they represent. We begin to see the depth and value of transmission, empowerment, and so forth. 

 

Anyway... these are some things that have come up for me and for other practitioners, instructors, and teachers I know and have known over time. 

 

Caveat emptor!

 

[liminal_luke]

On the off chance my impressions are not entirely personal bias, I'll share some thoughts.  Damo and Adam clearly know their stuff. It's exceedingly unlikely that I'll ever come close to matching their level or understanding.  I'm confident that their hearts are basically in the right place and many students benefit from their teachings.  And yet...and yet...something holds me back from studying with either one.  Call it intuition (or bad karma) but they are not my teachers.  Your mileage will almost certainly vary.

[doc benway]

10 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

It's exceedingly unlikely that I'll ever come close to matching their level or understanding.

 

I generally agree with you but on this point.... not so much.

 

[dwai]

43 minutes ago, steve said:

At that point people will sometimes feel a pressing desire to share these practices so that others can experience similar benefits.

Some will even act on that without the knowledge or support of their teacher(s), assuming they even have one.

This can be a trap!

It can lead to doing ourselves and others a serious disservice!

This point is very important. The biggest thing is consequential to the above phenomenon - many such students demonstrate a “religious” fervor with which they rise up to defend their teachers/system.
 

Now it could simply be that they get carried away in the moment due battle lust, and go overboard in their defensive and counter-offensive maneuvers. But it is also indicative of a lack of self control, which in turns reflects on their teachers/what they’ve learnt from them. A good phenomenon to introspect on, if I may say so. 

[liminal_luke]

42 minutes ago, steve said:

 

I generally agree with you but on this point.... not so much.

 

 

Wow -- what a vote of confidence.  

 

You mentioned earlier that your teacher once brought up the possibility that Trump could be a bodhisattva.  If so, he's clearly chosen a "crazy wisdom" route.  I suspect this whole business of levels looks very different before and after awakening/enlightenment.  For most of us, there's probably not much point casting aspersions on the spiritual accomplishments of others, diverting though such speculation may be.  In any case, thanks for lifting me up.

[Shadow_self]

44 minutes ago, dwai said:

This point is very important. The biggest thing is consequential to the above phenomenon - many such students demonstrate a “religious” fervor with which they rise up to defend their teachers/system.

 

Im not bothered about teachers per se, Im more interested in the truth.

 

Ill take the truth wherever I can find it, as long as it is the truth.

 

That was why when the thread started to take a kind of "personal turn" and people started directing aim at Adam or Damos (or whoever) I tried to steer it back to the points Adam made (Seems Damo was pulled in by association, but that's not so important)

 

I mean we discussing what he said and assessing the validity or invalidity of his statements, or is it going to be about the person? (this isnt aimed at you, im just noticing the overall direction of the discussion) 

 

With that being said

 

I would personally like to hear what mechanics the visualization practice is supposed to operate on outside of concentration, and in some places, some other stuff? We are talking about energetics and meditation as per Adams statements really

 

With that in mind, I again refer back to Ian Baker on this.

 

Even he would tell you that once he met John Chang and did a bit of training with him, he changed how he was doing Tummo. He also mentions how visualization is over-emphasized in VB.

 

The requisite discussions about these things would be (approx)

 

1.35:00 to close in the first interview

1.30:00 to 1.35:00 in the second interview

1.41:00 to 1:50:00 in the second interview

 

All the timestamps are below each video anyway

 

But here are some quotes that are illustrative, for those who dont want to listen. I took the time to transcibe them (some stuttery words omitted)

 

Quote

This is all your Tibetan conditioning, to visualize. Thats there in the Kaula, but really, the Kaula is all about sensation. We work with sensation, not with visualization, its like somatic bypassing.

Visualization can lead you into dissociative states, where you are no longer connected with your body, rather you are in this alternate universe of conceptual imagination

He said, That's the very opposite of Tantra.

So I found all of this very interesting to bring back into Tummo, and discuss this with Tibetan Teachers, who basically said, yeah visualization is for beginners. I wont even name the names because it becomes complicated,

 

Quote

So i shared with Chatral Rinpoche the kinds of Pranayama practices that I had learned within the Shaiva tradition, and he payed really close attention, and I found it very interesting, and of course there were a lot of parallels with the way such tsa lung, which is essentially pranayama or qigong practices are done in the Tibetan tradition. But I also emphasized again the fact that it was based on sensation rather than visualizing anything, and he said yes, very good.

 

Quote

So I talked with him (John Chang) about the Tummo practice a lot, and interestingly he had a very powerful, it changed the way I do Tummo, because he said "The Tibetans do it wrong, because they pull up on the perineum, he said actually, especially in the beginning you have to completely let the perineum loose, you have to bring the energy down. He said thats why they never really attained, and dont really understand it. So it was very interesting to have from someone who could manifest siddhi, a critique of these inner alchemical practices that are held in common with the Shaiva, Tibetan, Daoist tantric traditions.

 

Theres another quote there about how Ians Kaula teacher agrees with John on the Perineum

 

 

 

So here Ian is talking about the Lukhang Murals, where actually, some of the same practices I made reference to earlier are directly illustrated (the ones that actually generate energy) 

 

He speaks here at 45 minutes

 

 

Quote

"Whats really interesting about these paintings is that they were really described even by the Dalai Lama himself, as a visual guide of the path to enlightenment, according to the most esoteric, advanced and accelerated practices within the Tibetan Buddhist tradition.

 

In other words, they didnt rely upon the kind of customary monastic ritual, village based rituals, etc etc, or long, drawn out so called creation phase practices based on creative visualization and mantra, but the really go right to the energetic practices that work with the Yogic body"

 

 

44 minutes ago, dwai said:

Now it could simply be that they get carried away in the moment due battle lust, and go overboard in their defensive and counter-offensive maneuvers. But it is also indicative of a lack of self control, which in turns reflects on their teachers/what they’ve learnt from them.

 

If it had been something we were talking about that was some fringe view as per Damo and Adam maybe.

 

However, it is not.

 

I know quite a few folk who hold the same views, and none of them are associated with Damo or Adam. Here however is the most important point. They all seem to have some level of development above and beyond anything I've seen from the traditional paths that emphasize this stuff.

 

Let me be clear, I am speaking from my own experience.

 

I am most happy to hear from and discuss with people who have had a different experience.   Id like to see a good discussion take place

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

I would personally like to hear what mechanics the visualization practice is supposed to operate on outside of concentration, and in some places, some other stuff? We are talking about energetics and meditation as per Adams statements really

There are two levels of visualization in my experience. The kind that comes from the ordinary mind is usually unstable. It can’t be held consistently for an extended period of time. It, like the thoughts/mind, toggles between manifestation and disappearance. So the kind of practices that work on holding an image in the mind for an extended period of time work on concentration (in yogic terms, works in establishing ekagrachitta - one-pointed mind). 
 

There is another kind of visualization that arises spontaneously as part of meditation - such as mandalas, chakras, or more elaborate ones such as appearance of deities. These can work at the subtle/astral or causal levels depending on the level of the practitioner. These are very interesting because they will arise such that one is simultaneously in multiple dimensions/realms at once. For example, when it happens to me, I am aware of being in the physical body in the physical world, in meditation, while being in an astral dimension experiencing astral phenomena, and also in the causal dimension experiencing causal phenomena. 
 

This kind of visualization/sensation also is like permanently hearing a specific sound (or more like it’s always there but depending on if the mind focuses on it or not, it is audible), or a light source that is always present, but if the intention to focus on it, it pops back into the foreground of the mind. Example, I see a point of light all the time, located in the horizon of my field of vision, but it is not a physical phenomena - it’s a third eye thing. 
 

So one kind of visualization is the “training wheels” kind, and the other is that of spontaneously arising or uncovering phenomena seen by the subtle senses.

 

[awaken]

Mandalas are not for visualization
but the real interior

I have seen mandalas countless times, not by visualization

A point of light like a star, that is called millet
That is the interior scene before the opening of the heart orifice, and the characteristic is that it will appear alternately between black and white

 

曼陀羅不是用來觀想的
而是真實的內景

我已經出現過無數次的曼陀羅了，不是用觀想的

一個像星星的光點，那個稱為黍米
那個就是心竅將開未開之前的內景，特徵是會在黑白之間交替出現

 

I don't need to rely on visualization to focus at all

As long as you obey inaction, concentration will happen naturally

 

我完全不需要靠觀想來專注

只要順從無為，專注會自然發生