Wang Mu - Foundations of Internal Alchemy - The Taoist Practice of Neidan

[Apech]

Has anyone read this text (I am thinking of the one published by Golden Elixir Press trans. Fabrizio Pregadio)?

 

And more importantly has anyone used it as a basis for practice?

[Shadow_self]

37 minutes ago, Apech said:

Has anyone read this text (I am thinking of the one published by Golden Elixir Press trans. Fabrizio Pregadio)?

 

And more importantly has anyone used it as a basis for practice?

 

I have a copy of it, and do consult it from time to time

 

In my opinion its more descriptive than prescriptive  

[Apech]

12 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

I have a copy of it, and do consult it from time to time

 

In my opinion its more descriptive than prescriptive  

 

Could you expand on that a little?  Do you mean it's a theory rather than practice work?

[Shadow_self]

30 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Could you expand on that a little?  Do you mean it's a theory rather than practice work?

 

Sure I can. Perhaps I could use a quote from it, as I have it here in front of me

 

Quote

In the Jindan dacheng ji (The Great Achievement of the Golden Elixir) by Xiao
Tingzhi we read:

妙運三田須上下，自知一體合西東，幾回笑指崑山上，夾脊分明有路
通。

The wondrous circulation through the Three Fields requires going upward
and downward,
and one knows for oneself that East and West join in one body.
Delighted, it moves repeatedly to the summit of Mount Kunlun:
the Spinal Handle is luminous, and the path is open.

 

Since Shi Tai was Zhang Boduan’s main disciple, and Xiao Tingzhi was his
fifth-generation disciple, their views on the three Barriers pertain to Zhang
Boduan’s transmission. The poem by Xiao Tingzhi explains that there is a
downward movement in the front of the body through the three Cinnabar Fields,
followed by an upward movement along the Control vessel that goes through the
Spinal Handle and reaches “Mount Kunlun,” i.e., the top of the head, also called
Palace of the Muddy Pellet. Poems like the ones quoted above provide more
details on this subject.

 

This is what I mean when i say it is descriptive,

 

It really does not tell you how to do anything in my opinion

 

With a good teacher, they'd give you the methods and interpretations, and then one would be able to make sense of all those rather arcane terms you see in Neidan

 

That being said, this book does lay some of the terms out and explain them , but I don't see it as anything you could use methodologically speaking to form a practice

 

Nathan Brine and Damo Mitchells books would be more along the remit of outlining some of the practical elements  

[Apech]

26 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Sure I can. Perhaps I could use a quote from it, as I have it here in front of me

 

 

This is what I mean when i say it is descriptive,

 

It really does not tell you how to do anything in my opinion

 

With a good teacher, they'd give you the methods and interpretations, and then one would be able to make sense of all those rather arcane terms you see in Neidan

 

That being said, this book does lay some of the terms out and explain them , but I don't see it as anything you could use methodologically speaking to form a practice

 

Nathan Brine and Damo Mitchells books would be more along the remit of outlining some of the practical elements  

 

 

Thanks I'll look up Nathan Brine ... is the online stuff worthwhile?

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

Has anyone read this text (I am thinking of the one published by Golden Elixir Press trans. Fabrizio Pregadio)

i leafed through the free sample. It is an excellent primer on the neidan history theory and practice

2 hours ago, Apech said:

And more importantly has anyone used it as a basis for practice?

Unfortunately practically no westerner can learn ND from a book (or from a teacher for that matter but for a different reason).  And that's because that a westerner literally refuses to see whats in their on paper in front of him in black and white.

@Shadow_self thank you sir i am going to use you as an example, nothing personal. thanks again

 

To wit: a westerner sees this:

25 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

there is a
downward movement in the front of the body through the three Cinnabar Fields,
followed by an upward movement along the Control vessel that goes through the
Spinal Handle and reaches “Mount Kunlun,” i.e., the top of the head,

 

which of course cannot be any more clearer and goes

25 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

It really does not tell you how to do anything

so thats that.

 

(@Shadow_self thanks again man)

[Apech]

10 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i leafed through the free sample. It is an excellent primer on the neidan history theory and practice

Unfortunately practically no westerner can learn ND from a book (or from a teacher for that matter but for a different reason).  And that's because that a westerner literally refuses to see whats in their on paper in front of him in black and white.

@Shadow_self thank you sir i am going to use you as an example, nothing personal. thanks again

 

To wit: a westerner sees this:

 

which of course cannot be any more clearer and goes

so thats that.

 

(@Shadow_self thanks again man)

 

A little harsh @Taoist Texts - he was trying to be helpful and just picked a page.  Anyway let us not make this about criticising each other.

 

I read through Wang Mu a few years ago and then read it again making notes for myself - I just came across my notes when going through papers.  It seemed to me a lot clearer than say Charles Luk's Taoist Yoga, which I also have.  But I wondered if there was anything even better out there.  Or if it is in itself 'enough' so to speak.  That's all.

 

 

[freeform]

6 hours ago, Apech said:

Could you expand on that a little?  Do you mean it's a theory rather than practice work?

Well @Shadow_self gave a great example…

 

Quote

The wondrous circulation through the Three Fields requires going upward
and downward,
and one knows for oneself that East and West join in one body.
Delighted, it moves repeatedly to the summit of Mount Kunlun:
the Spinal Handle is luminous, and the path is open.

I mean it’s reasonably easy to work out that this is talking about a certain aspect of the microcosmic orbit…

 

However - it’s not instructional!

 

If you thought it’s instructional you might just imagine this circulation 😬

 

Which is obviously what most do.

 

Instead, this to me is ‘confirmatory’…

 

Meaning you’re apprenticing to your teacher and practicing the methods taught - and reading such poems tells you what aspects of your inner experience are ‘correct’… meaning that your inner experience is being confirmed by the writings of advanced masters from the past.

 

If you’re in any way contriving these experiences (whether through visualisation, focused attention, intention etc - then it will only result in sensory experience within the nervous system.

 

Edited January 5, 2023 by freeform

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

which of course cannot be any more clearer

Of course if you were to be explicit about your ‘clear’ understanding, then you’d reveal your cards… then who’ll pay you!? 🫠

[Shadow_self]

30 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i leafed through the free sample. It is an excellent primer on the neidan history theory and practice

Unfortunately practically no westerner can learn ND from a book (or from a teacher for that matter but for a different reason).  And that's because that a westerner literally refuses to see whats in their on paper in front of him in black and white.

@Shadow_self thank you sir i am going to use you as an example, nothing personal. thanks again

 

To wit: a westerner sees this:

 

which of course cannot be any more clearer and goes

so thats that.

 

(@Shadow_self thanks again man)

 

Actually my point was this doesn't tell you directly how to do it, it describes a process that takes place

 

There are no real direct instructions in that book, its basically a collection of descriptions of processes that were coded in arcane language.

 

They do their best to unpack the terms (which is quite nice) but the instructions on how to do it just are not there.

 

In my experience, pretty much all scholarly works on this topic either lack direct instruction or confuse certain things (Livia Kohn is a real one for this).

 

Now if you want to talk about that, we can. I'm sure it could be interesting  Or if you want to sit there holding what may very well be 5 joker cards close to your chest, that's fine too. I'm not really bothered  

 

16 minutes ago, Apech said:

I read through Wang Mu a few years ago and then read it again making notes for myself - I just came across my notes when going through papers.  It seemed to me a lot clearer than say Charles Luk's Taoist Yoga, which I also have.  But I wondered if there was anything even better out there.  Or if it is in itself 'enough' so to speak.  That's all.

 

I bought this and awakening to reality at the same time. Putting these alongside the other texts I mentioned, that was when they became more helpful to be honest. I was told to steer clear of TY so never really bothered with it. I'm also lucky in the sense I have a few people I can ask for clarifications around certain things.

 

Honestly I concern myself more with the pre-neidan stage. 

 

There's a bit of work that needs to be done regards one of the parts of the elixir, so I keep a lot of it there  

52 minutes ago, Apech said:

Thanks I'll look up Nathan Brine … is the online stuff worthwhile?

 

I speak generally here (not towards you) as It might be useful for others

 

I dont know about his online programs to be honest. @freeform has mentioned before Wang Liping teaches through transmission a lot, and Ive heard the same. People having channels open up in his presence and so forth.

 

A lot of them never stabilize anything from it (Like the few who went, took a retreat and didnt see Raiden from mortal kombat so assumed it wasnt working) 

 

So for someone going into Neidan, without some of that pre-neidan stuff mentioned? Im not sure how well that would work

 

Then again, I think he did mention that he was teaching on that online course a method for establishing the cauldron.

 

Even if so, Im not seeing the channel opening stuff mentioned, and by goodness does that hurt and take a long time  (in the nice way  ) 

 

He has a new platform coming soon, so maybe he'll start teaching some of that too? He has a rather interesting background  

 

 

The interesting thing here, is he talks about how the terms can mean different things at different stages in the process. This is why I think its hard to take anything from books alone. What can seem a small subtle thing, can actually send one down a fairly slippery slope  

[EFreethought]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

In my opinion its more descriptive than prescriptive  

Isn't this true of a lot of Daoist texts? (serious question, I mean "daoist texts in a general sense, not a reference to the user with a similar name)

Edited January 5, 2023 by EFreethought

[Shadow_self]

5 minutes ago, EFreethought said:

Isn't this true of a lot of Daoist texts? (serious question, I mean "daoist texts in a general sense, not a reference to the user with a similar name)

 

Its almost always been my experience that this is the case. I got these texts, then the practical books, then the teacher, and then things started to make sense. Just the texts by themselves were processes described in an esoteric manner, sometimes described in a less esoteric manner

 

Outside of Damo Mitchell,  @freeformis the only person I have seen discuss neigong and neidan in a way that both makes sense from a practical perspective, theoretical perspective, and actually makes certain things from these texts easier to understand and decipher.

 

He dropped a hint about neigong here a few weeks back, that I've also repeated, and I still think its going unnoticed  

 

Mind you the DDJ might be the exception to the rule regards texts from what I can see  You still need a teacher, but that one is a bit more than confirmatory, if you have someone to help you understand it  

[Taoist Texts]

23 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Now if you want to talk about that, we can. I'm sure it could be interesting  Or if you want to sit there holding what may very well be 5 joker cards close to your chest, that's fine too. I'm not really bothered  

first of i am grateful to you again for being such a good sport and not taking offence at me quoting your post . its a rare thing.

12 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I got these texts, then the practical books, then the teacher, and then things started to make sense

so  by now you know how to do ND practically, yes?

 

31 minutes ago, freeform said:

Of course if you were to be explicit about your ‘clear’ understanding, then you’d reveal your cards… then who’ll pay you!?

i have a complaint about that. you see my intro course explains the entire working of the universe, the human life death and immortality, the principles and practices of all and any neidan, religion and cultivation. Seriously, it does. But a few times when i explicitly and clearly taught it to a student - the student just shrugged and said to himself  'nah this is just stupid, i just wasted a benjamin on this fool and his  silly gibberish'. at least thats the impression i got. makes me sad a smidge. 

 

[Shadow_self]

11 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

first of i am grateful to you again for being such a good sport and not taking offence at me quoting your post . its a rare thing.

 

I don't get offended by you, I did not like you misrepresenting me, But even I can appreciate a sarcastic comment, irrespective of whether or not it is accurate  

 

11 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

so  by now you know how to do ND practically, yes?

 

I know how some of the beginning works practically yes. Im not claiming any superior mastery of it (At all) 

 

To go at it properly, I'd want a few quiet months, and these last few, have been anything but that. So im not interested in taking it on to the extent that Id be happy with.

 

I have other things to work on, that are either a prerequisite to, or supportive of  

 

I have the summer to look forward to taking that a bit further. On top of personal issues, this time of year kind of makes anything  difficult in my line of work

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

i have a complaint about that. you see my intro course explains the entire working of the universe, the human life death and immortality, the principles and practices of all and any neidan, religion and cultivation. Seriously, it does. But a few times when i explicitly and clearly taught it to a student - the student just shrugged and said to himself  'nah this is just stupid, i just wasted a benjamin on this fool and his  silly gibberish'. at least thats the impression i got. makes me sad a smidge. 

Ahh buyers remorse eh.

 

Well either you’re casting pearls before swine…

 

Or pig crap before pearl bearing oysters…

 

(that analogy took a weird turn - sorry!)

 

I’d say that the carrot dangling/ keeping cards close to your chest approach is what causes it.

 

If your students knew ahead of time your particular take on the ‘entire workings of the universe’, they’d effectively self-select by buying in or opting out based on whether they align with your views or not.

 

Or is your view particularly unpalatable?

[Taoist Texts]

10 hours ago, freeform said:

Or is your view particularly unpalatable?

yes it is because it is the tradition. and the tradition requires to 'kill your human heart so your heavenly heart comes to life'. not palatable to a normal man at all. 

[Cobie]

22 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… which of course cannot be any more clearer …

 

Well I guess it's clear if you know about it. For those like me who don't, I Google-found this: 

 

Cyclical path for refining the Elixir,

circulation of the internal breath through the 3 Fields. Repeatedly done. *

Going upward and downward, East and West join in one body. 

 

Descent first. Through the 3 Cinnabar Fields in the front. Withdrawing the Yin response (tui yinfu).

Ascent second. Through 3 Barriers in the back. Advancing the Yang Fire (jin yanghuo).

 

Ascent is along the Control vessel, a channel running along the back of the body.

"Mount Kunlun" is the top of the head.

3 Barriers, passes (guan), on the back:

- behind the brain. Barrier of the Jade Pillow (yuzhen). To do slowly with "gentle fire" (wenhuo) & subtle intent (yi).

- across from the heart. Barrier of the Pulley (Lulu), Spinal Handle (jiaji) is luminous

- in the lowest section of the spine. Barrier of the Caudal Funnel (weilü). At the junction of Water and Fire.

 

* Laying the foundations. One full cycle is called "clearing the Function and Control vessels" 

After the formation of the Medicine. Then it's called "Lesser Celestial Circuit". Suddenly a gentle movement begins, and the Divine Water spontaneously flows.

 

https://www.goldenelixir.com/jindan/wm_three_barriers.html

 

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by Cobie

[Bindi]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

yes it is because it is the tradition. and the tradition requires to 'kill your human heart so your heavenly heart comes to life'. not palatable to a normal man at all. 

Not palatable to any human methinks. What is the place of normal human love in neidan. Do we really need to let that go, or can we arrive at a love that is more mature? 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

What is the place of normal human love in neidan. Do we really need to let that go

of course we need to let all of that go. it is gonna slip away in a few years anyway so why cling to it

1 hour ago, Bindi said:

can we arrive at a love that is more mature? 

sure we can

[Bindi]

On 6/1/2023 at 9:35 PM, Taoist Texts said:

of course we need to let all of that go. it is gonna slip away in a few years anyway so why cling to it

sure we can

I think it’s a grave error to foreclose on relationships before the heart has been purified, you’d be left with so much unresolved baggage and karma. Say the heart is part of the dantian irrigation system, a cold heart isn’t going to support water flowing, nor will it support what else is required for authentic energetic growth. Unhealed, there will always be a bug deep within the system. 
 

IME one can work directly on the heart (chakra and MDT) but there will be issues that only appear in relationship even when everything that can be resolved personally has been, to be specific, relationship accentuates how I perceive others and how I perceive myself in a way that nothing else can. 
 

Once all of that is sorted, maybe there is value in letting relationships go, maybe not. Perhaps I’m in the camp of becoming more human and accepting all of my humanity, as opposed to reducing my overall humanity and delineating only part of myself as ‘spiritually’ acceptable. 

[Wilhelm]

On 1/5/2023 at 11:34 AM, Taoist Texts said:

i have a complaint about that. you see my intro course explains the entire working of the universe, the human life death and immortality, the principles and practices of all and any neidan, religion and cultivation. Seriously, it does. But a few times when i explicitly and clearly taught it to a student - the student just shrugged and said to himself  'nah this is just stupid, i just wasted a benjamin on this fool and his  silly gibberish'. at least thats the impression i got. makes me sad a smidge. 

I apologize if I gave that impression during or after our talk.  I recorded all the information in detail and have referred to it since.  I think the disconnect might've just been context and application.  If somebody tells me the secrets to the Universe in plain English but I don't have any way to apply or confirm the model, then it remains just a model for me - interesting for sure but not life-changing in and of itself.  All I can do is continue to practice and see if what happens to me matches what happened to you.

[Taoist Texts]

53 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I apologize if I gave that impression

no no it was not you. there was this guy, exceptionally gifted and noble of character. he also  telepathically communicated with the ascended shaolin monks and somehow that contributed to our falling out. also there was this nice guy who could sense me all the way from australia. i gotta make a mental note to ask people first thing if they are telepathing with anyone.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Taoist Texts

[Thrice Daily]

On 08/01/2023 at 7:47 PM, Taoist Texts said:

no no it was not you. there was this guy, exceptionally gifted and noble of character. he also  telepathically communicated with the ascended shaolin monks and somehow that contributed to our falling out. also there was this nice guy who could sense me all the way from australia. i gotta make a mental note to ask people first thing if they are telepathing with anyone.

I've been enjoying reading this topic. It would be nice to see it continue. 

 

Specifically I'd like to ask you who written Wang Mu and where is it best to read an English translation of it? 

 

All from the stars and all back to the stars. Every fibre of our being balancing to death like threads made the old way... Back to the light where it came from. Connect to it on this cool clump of earth, and like water collecting on a metal mirror, just be... 

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Thrice Daily said:

I've been enjoying reading this topic. It would be nice to see it continue. 

 

Specifically I'd like to ask you who written Wang Mu and where is it best to read an English translation of it? 

 

All from the stars and all back to the stars. Every fibre of our being balancing to death like threads made the old way... Back to the light where it came from. Connect to it on this cool clump of earth, and like water collecting on a metal mirror, just be... 

 

 

Have a look here:

 

https://www.goldenelixir.com/goldenelixir_press.html

[Taomeow]

On 1/5/2023 at 8:42 AM, Apech said:

 

 

Thanks I'll look up Nathan Brine ... is the online stuff worthwhile?

 

If you are after Wang Liping's material -- this is what Nathan attempts to teach -- he's not a great presenter online, but he has two books out, I have the first one, it was useful for refreshing the terminology (especially considering I originally learned it in a different language.)  For the simplest possible explanations, not bad I guess (haven't read all of it), and indeed prescriptive rather than descriptive.  I have Wang Liping's own book (Ling Bao Tong Zhi Neng Nei Gong Shu) but the translation is not perfect, it's a difficult read and I don't know how someone would fare who hasn't learned this in person or from the best of Master Wang's long term instructors. 

Not long ago it was translated once again and edited by Livia Kohn, I don't have that version but I've seen very favorable reviews from people in the know, and Livia does have a long-standing reputation for producing top quality translations. 

 

 

Edited September 18 by Taomeow