Vajrayana Discussion

[Shadow_self]

I though we could have a wider discussion as opposed to the poll based thread

 

I think the following coming this week, is going to really make the discussion interesting. The timestamps look great

 

 

Quote

00:00 - Intro 01:05 - The Vajra Path 03:42 - Tradition and innovation 08:25 - Mass empowerments 10:24 - 84 Mahasiddhas and individualised practice 13:14 - Vajrayana is experiential 14:52 - Correcting misunderstandings 16:53 - What is essential for Vajrayana to be effective? 19:11 - The role of empowerment 21:00 - Listen, study, meditate 23:19 - The power of place 25:03 - Discerning effective methods for contemporary audiences 28:23 - Secrecy and education 32:18 - How much practice is needed for Varjayana? 36:30 - Struggles with dream yoga and tummo 40:14 - Working with your talents 42:34 - 6 Yogas study mistakes 44:05 - Misguided attitudes to ngondro, preliminary practices 47:06 - Spiritual cocktails and narcissism 49:02 - How to relate to other traditions 50:49 - Syncretism the critical historical perspective 54:51 - Fundamental values 58:12 - Dark triad traits in spiritual practitioners and teachers 01:02:12 - Vajrayana and institutions 01:03:35 - Distilling the essence or taking out of context? 01:05:00 - Dr Nida’s vision of Vajrayana institutions 01:06:38 - Cultural trappings vs the essence of Buddhism 01:12:49 - Dr Ian on religious institutions and the evolution of Vajrayana 01:16:41 - Essence of Vajrayana 01:20:45 - Who does Vajrayana belong to? 01:22:25 - Critical historical vs traditional perspectives 01:26:39 - Dr Nida reflects on the power of simplicity 01:30:09 - Friendship and collaboration 01:31:33 - Hijacking of Buddhism 01:34:47 - Deelaboration and the beautiful adventure 01:36:40 - Future trips, courses, and activities

 

 

I hope this will take the discussion in an interesting direction  

[awaken]

Vajrayana is the same as Taoist real person stage interior scene

But it is not advisable to use visualization, because visualization is self-deception

 

金剛乘跟道家真人階段的內景是相同的

但是不宜用觀想的方式，因為觀想是自欺欺人

 

There are secrets hidden in the pictures of Vajrayana, and the real interior scenes will not be exactly the same

The pictures of Vajrayana are comprehensive interior scenes, that is, the pictures of two stages are combined to form

 

金剛乘的圖片是有秘密藏在裡面的，真實的內景出現不會是一模一樣

金剛乘的圖片是綜合性的內景，也就是兩階段的畫面結合在一起形成的
 

The picture of the small medicine will appear first, and then the picture of the big medicine will appear

The picture of Vajrayana is to draw the picture of the small medicine and the picture of the big medicine in the same picture

But in the actual practiced interior scene, the picture of Xiaoyao（the small medicine） and the picture of Dayao（the big medicine） will not appear at the same time

 

小藥的畫面會先出現，然後再出現大藥的畫面

金剛乘的畫面是把小藥的畫面跟大藥的畫面畫在同一個圖畫當中

但是實際練出來的內景，小藥的畫面和大藥的畫面是不會同時出現的

Edited January 12, 2023 by awaken

[Apech]

Vid was a bit boring TBH and more of a promotional.

[dwai]

This is a good one 

 

 

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

Vid was a bit boring TBH and more of a promotional.

 

Yeah, I know. Timestamp titles are very misleading  

 

Nida is good to share what he does. Not so easy to listen to talk for extended periods though  He struggles a bit to communicate

 

Ian is a lot easier and much more interesting. (though its notable he was terribly quiet in that interview)

 

In any event, its a good thing they are trying to open the doors on some of it.

 

I appreciate anyone who's trying to so something like that

 

 

[Sahaja]

I find the topic being explored by Baker in his other YouTube stuff quite fascinating - I’d describe it as the venn diagram overlap between Daoist , TibetanBon Yoga/Dzogchen and Hindu Tantric yoga. Not the sexual practices or fantastic powers  (these feel a little offtrack/sensationalized to me) but just that there is something fundamental and very significant underneath these traditions that seems to be held in common irrespective of the different cultural/religious wrappings.

[Shadow_self]

6 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

I find the topic being explored by Baker in his other YouTube stuff quite fascinating - I’d describe it as the venn diagram overlap between Daoist , TibetanBon Yoga/Dzogchen and Hindu Tantric yoga. Not the sexual practices or fantastic powers  (these feel a little offtrack/sensationalized to me) but just that there is something fundamental and very significant underneath these traditions that seems to be held in common irrespective of the different cultural/religious wrappings.

 

Ian is a total gem  I often tell people he is highly underappreciated as a source of good information  

 

I am glad he is making an effort to be more public. His new stuff coming out about the external alchemy traditions  is going to really surprise a few folk  

[doc benway]

50 minutes ago, Sahaja said:

Not the sexual practices or fantastic powers  (these feel a little offtrack/sensationalized to me) but just that there is something fundamental and very significant underneath these traditions that seems to be held in common irrespective of the different cultural/religious wrappings.

 

Such a good point.

Just like corporatized "news" has taken advantage of our attraction to stimulation and emotional subject matter, people are drawn by the sensationalized spiritual practices (sexual practice, drilling holes in heads, enlightenment, immortality, power). In the end these traditions all point to the inner journey we must take through the mundane, the painful, the dysfunctional, even the wonderful things in our lives in order to make a connection with something much more pervasive, profound, and powerful... 

I haven't read or listened to Ian Baker before but maybe I'll check him out. 

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Yeah, I know. Timestamp titles are very misleading  

 

Nida is good to share what he does. Not so easy to listen to talk for extended periods though  He struggles a bit to communicate

 

Ian is a lot easier and much more interesting. (though its notable he was terribly quiet in that interview)

 

In any event, its a good thing they are trying to open the doors on some of it.

 

I appreciate anyone who's trying to so something like that

 

 

 

 

Baker seems like a good scholar - not sure how accomplished either of them are in terms of actual energy stuff.

[Shadow_self]

15 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

Baker seems like a good scholar - not sure how accomplished either of them are in terms of actual energy stuff.

I cant speak for Nida, but as for Ian, he's more than familiar with energetics  

 

Shy of actually meeting him, You can tell that by the words I quoted him on over in the other thread.

 

Hes initiated into quite a few lines

• More than one Vajrayana
• Kaula line or Kaulācāra
• Took John Chang's Initial training
• Been joined at the hip with Verdesi for a long time  (you can be sure they've had many of the same teachers)
• Initiated into a Buddhist line in Myanmar that focuses on external alchemy

He's quite honest about what does and doesn't develop energy  

[Apech]

45 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I cant speak for Nida, but as for Ian, he's more than familiar with energetics  

 

Shy of actually meeting him, You can tell that by the words I quoted him on over in the other thread.

 

Hes initiated into quite a few lines

• More than one Vajrayana
• Kaula line or Kaulācāra
• Took John Chang's Initial training
• Been joined at the hip with Verdesi for a long time  (you can be sure they've had many of the same teachers)
• Initiated into a Buddhist line in Myanmar that focuses on external alchemy

He's quite honest about what does and doesn't develop energy  

 

Just my impression from looking at him.  A lot of people have done a lot of things but it doesn't always end up as much.

[Shadow_self]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

Just my impression from looking at him.  A lot of people have done a lot of things but it doesn't always end up as much.

 

That might be a result of being a "scholar-practitioner" as opposed to a "practitioner-scholar"  

 

Academic work and energy work,not the best mix being totally honest with you.

 

Enough to drain anyone. I've first hand experience there  

[Taoist Texts]

53 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Been joined at the hip with Verdesi for a long time

i am lost on this point. is it a good thing or a bad thing?

[Apech]

2 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

That might be a result of being a "scholar-practitioner" as opposed to a "practitioner-scholar"  

 

Academic work and energy work,not the best mix being totally honest with you.

 

Enough to drain anyone. I've first hand experience there  

 

Yes.  Actually many Buddhist Lamas are Lamas because of scholarship and learning while others are yogis and wotnot.  So you can gain benefits from both or either - but different ones.  The perfect teacher of course is both.  But I suspect that Vajrayana Conference that Damo went to was mostly scholarship.  So .... thus the whole discussion.

[Apech]

Just now, Taoist Texts said:

i am lost on this point. is it a good thing or a bad thing?

 

If they both turn round quickly it could be nasty.

[Taoist Texts]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

If they both turn round quickly it could be nasty.

may be they did already

[Shadow_self]

47 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i am lost on this point. is it a good thing or a bad thing?

 

Both

 

Good: Verdesi has rooted out a lot of very high level teachers. So he would be someone to be near in that regard

 

Bad: Verdesi is very very fond of money and so on, and so, taking any kind of "influence" from that side would be rather counterproductive (IMO).

 

46 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Yes.  Actually many Buddhist Lamas are Lamas because of scholarship and learning while others are yogis and wotnot.  So you can gain benefits from both or either - but different ones.  The perfect teacher of course is both.  But I suspect that Vajrayana Conference that Damo went to was mostly scholarship.  So .... thus the whole discussion.

 

Agreed, but it takes real balance to be able to manage that. Id not think anyone starting out should be involved in scholarship/research

 

It was one of the reasons I felt happy walking away from that side of things 

 

Easier to just teach and not concern oneself with a very politicised system on top of an already intellectually difficult and energetically draining profession

[Apech]

47 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Both

 

Good: Verdesi has rooted out a lot of very high level teachers. So he would be someone to be near in that regard

 

Bad: Verdesi is very very fond of money and so on, and so, taking any kind of "influence" from that side would be rather counterproductive (IMO).

 

Rooted out?  what does that mean?

 

47 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Agreed, but it takes real balance to be able to manage that. Id not think anyone starting out should be involved in scholarship/research

 

It was one of the reasons I felt happy walking away from that side of things 

 

Easier to just teach and not concern oneself with a very politicised system on top of an already intellectually difficult and energetically draining profession

 

Sooner or later we all need to do the study ... but if we just study and don't practice then it's pointless.

 

 

[Geof Nanto]

3 hours ago, steve said:

In the end these traditions all point to the inner journey we must take through the mundane, the painful, the dysfunctional, even the wonderful things in our lives in order to make a connection with something much more pervasive, profound, and powerful... 

 

Worth repeating!

[Shadow_self]

3 minutes ago, Apech said:

Rooted out?  what does that mean?

 

Located, sought out, brought others...He's been around.

 

3 minutes ago, Apech said:

Sooner or later we all need to do the study ... but if we just study and don't practice then it's pointless.

 

I was actually referring to academia and the nature of it. Its already an incredibly stressful environment, Qi in the head like 24x7. Very hard to progress  energetically when that's what you're facing. Id nearly go as far as to say they are in a tug of war

 

Couple the absolute insanity we've seen in "research" .Yeah, that's an aspect of my career I am not sad to see the back of.

 

No good for anyone energetically

 

Borderline leaving teaching too, only I enjoy showing people the simple formula behind academia so they can all do very well and give their professors cause to scratch their head confused while they have to figure out how to adjust their grading curves  

[awaken]

I watched a third of this movie, about 40 minutes, and I didn’t want to watch it

It took half an hour before, but nothing important was mentioned, only the popularization of empowerment was mentioned.

Empowerment is a phony issue, a religious ceremony that has no real effect.

When our practice reaches a certain level, the Baihui acupoint on the top of the head will be opened, and this is the real empowerment.

The master below talked about breathing heat. I think this is inappropriate, because a Vajrayana practitioner should not stop at such superficial content.

The content of the Vajrayana is the same as that of the Taoist immortals. They are the inner scenes of real people that will only be produced after a series of evolutions.

But this person talks about breathing heat, a beginner's phenomenon that has nothing to do with sects.

Vajrayana cannot be learned, it is a high-level internal phenomenon.

If you use the Vajrayana to "learn" and use visualization as a practice, it is a way of deceiving yourself and others.

 

這個影片我看了三分之一，大概４０分鍾的地方，我就不想看了

前面花了半小時，沒講到什麼重點，只有提到灌頂的普及化。

灌頂是個假議題，一種宗教儀式，沒有任何實際效用。

當我們練功到達某一個程度之後，頭頂百會穴會打開，這才是真正的灌頂。

下方的大師講到呼吸發熱，我覺得這是不應該的，因為一個金剛乘的修行者，不應該停留在這麼粗淺的內容上面。

金剛乘的內容跟道家神仙的程度是相同的，都是經歷一連串的演化之後，才會產生的真人內景。

但是這個人卻講呼吸發熱，這種跟宗派無關的初學者現象。

金剛乘是無法被學習的，那是一種高階的內景現象。

如果把金剛乘拿來「學習」，而且採用觀想的方式做為練習，那就是一種自欺欺人的方式。
 

Edited January 15, 2023 by awaken

[Taoist Texts]

8 hours ago, awaken said:

I watched a third of this movie, about 40 minutes, and I didn’t want to watch it

you have a will of iron, ma'am.  whenever i try to watch one of these i last only a few minutes before wondering if perhaps pulling a tooth would be less  painful. thats how weak i am.

[awaken]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

you have a will of iron, ma'am.  whenever i try to watch one of these i last only a few minutes before wondering if perhaps pulling a tooth would be less  painful. thats how weak i am.

 

I watched it in double fast forward, and it actually only took me twenty minutes.

[Apech]

I was wondering if in this discussion of Vajrayana we should start by establishing a mutual understanding of what 'vajra' itself means - and why this path is specifically named thus.

 

PS. I looked up David Verdesi and I have to say any connection with him would be a black mark in my book.

 

 

[awaken]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrasekhara_Sutra

 

To understand the Vajrayana, it is best to read this fundamental classic.

 

要了解金剛乘，最好要看一下這本根本經典。

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vairocanābhisaṃbodhi_Sūtra

 

It is also best to read this 大日經 Da Ri Jing.

 

If there are a lot of mandalas and real people appearing like me, you will be like me, and you will know what this book is talking about after reading this book.

 

你如果跟我一樣出現一大堆曼陀羅，也出現真人，你就會跟我一樣，看這本經書就知道這本到底在說什麼了。

 

 

You won't believe the visualization nonsense that those tantric masters say.

 

你就不會相信那些密宗大師說的觀想鬼話了。

Edited January 15, 2023 by awaken