Vajrayana Discussion

[Wilhelm]

33 minutes ago, freeform said:

I’m still very interested in the answers people have for the question @Wilhelm posed:

After looking into the project a bit, I think I was mistaken about their intent.  But I'm still also super curious about this, so maybe it would be more appropriate to rephrase it generally as opposed in relation to the Vajra Path:

Is an accessible and reasonably authentic course in Varajyana Buddhism available in the West?  Did the experienced practitioners here have to pull from several sources to obtain their training, or could they find masters who would give it all at once?  Are these teachings easily discernable to Western audiences or did you find some of them to be overly esoteric?

My initial impression was that The Vajra Path intended to be a start-to-finish education and course in the tradition (in reaction to the 'peacemeal' attending of workshops on disparate and often unrelated topics making the practitioner's path highly non-linear), but its possible that such a thing is too ambitious - from what little I know of Varajyana is that it's extremely comprehensive.  Looking a bit into their initial offerings I might have been mistaken.  The topics of the initial retreats were:

 

EMBODYING THE FIVE WISDOM DĀKINĪS’, WITH YOGINĪ TSHERING CHODEN

'Eros, Ecstasy, & Elixirs’

Bardo Yoga

 

So I think now their initiative instead has to do with providing high quality Varajyana instruction in a way that's accessible to a Western audience without sacrificing the authenticity of the tradition (which if I had read their own description I would have known before - my bad).  Still though, I don't understand why they seem to be starting somewhere in the middle (but I'm definitely an overly-linear thinker) - my impression was that this was part of their criticism of Varajyana - the tradition isn't taught with a clear line of progression to Western audiences.  Anyways, what do the people who actually know what they're talking about (not me) think of this?

Edited January 18, 2023 by Wilhelm

[freeform]

15 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

Colour me cynical, but this podcast series comes over to me like a shop window for economic actors in the spiritual marketplace...

Gone are the days where you can get genuine teachings without some money changing hands at one point or another.

 

You might enjoy Beth Upton’s podcast on that channel… she’s also sceptical about money (and talks about it in one episode), became a nun and trained in Buddhist meditation at a respectable place with an attained teacher… she does mention her website, which might rub you up the wrong way, but teaches on a donation basis - so you could potentially learn for free (though would still have to pay to get to her).

[freeform]

23 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

'Eros, Ecstasy, & Elixirs’

All the most stimulating aspects of the path 😅

[Wilhelm]

14 minutes ago, freeform said:

Gone are the days where you can get genuine teachings without some money changing hands at one point or another.

 

You might enjoy Beth Upton’s podcast on that channel… she’s also sceptical about money (and talks about it in one episode), became a nun and trained in Buddhist meditation at a respectable place with an attained teacher… she does mention her website, which might rub you up the wrong way, but teaches on a donation basis - so you could potentially learn for free (though would still have to pay to get to her).

That's a good example of someone who's about as publicly uninterested in money as I've seen.  You probably remember at that point she laughed and said with clear distaste "I can't believe I'm one of those people with a website now!"

13 minutes ago, freeform said:

All the most stimulating aspects of the path 😅

That particular event is being held in Greece, which I expect has to do with adapting traditional teachings towards a Western audience (given Dr. Ian's background, I'm sure he chose the location very deliberately).  

 

For all they said about the importance of the Ngondro as a prerequisite, I wonder if their plan is to eventually teach it (or whether they're satisfied with the publicly available instructions).

[Barnaby]

19 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Dr. Ian's background,

 

Love all the Dr stuff, it's so Dr Hunter S. Thompson

[Wilhelm]

10 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

Love all the Dr stuff, it's so Dr Hunter S. Thompson

I'm just trying to be respectful of two teachers from a tradition I don't understand  Even if it's a bit more formal than I'm used to, I don't mind calling them by the same title they use for themselves.

 

How about you Barnaby?  Has your recent explorations into Buddhism given you any insight into the state of Varjyana in the West?

Edited January 18, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Shadow_self]

42 minutes ago, freeform said:

Gone are the days where you can get genuine teachings without some money changing hands at one point or another.

 

You might enjoy Beth Upton’s podcast on that channel… she’s also sceptical about money (and talks about it in one episode), became a nun and trained in Buddhist meditation at a respectable place with an attained teacher… she does mention her website, which might rub you up the wrong way, but teaches on a donation basis - so you could potentially learn for free (though would still have to pay to get to her).

 

26 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

That's a good example of someone who's about as publicly uninterested in money as I've seen.  You probably remember at that point she laughed and said with clear distaste "I can't believe I'm one of those people with a website now!"

That particular event is being held in Greece, which I expect has to do with adapting traditional teachings towards a Western audience (given Dr. Ian's background, I'm sure he chose the location very deliberately).  

 

For all they said about the importance of the Ngondro as a prerequisite, I wonder if their plan is to eventually teach it (or whether they're satisfied with the publicly available instructions).

 

Beth Upton is a real one.

 

For anyone who can see a little beneath the surface, you can tell she has a degree of development above and beyond a lot of teachers charging thousands! Including ones who claim mastery over the teachings from that monastery

 

But hey there's mastery and then theres "mastery".

 

Draw the bullseye around the bullet hole after the shot and things appear well and good

 

 

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

'Eros, Ecstasy, & Elixirs’

 

49 minutes ago, freeform said:

All the most stimulating aspects of the path 😅

 

Of course this will be turned into

 

Screw, sip and trip your way to enlightenment  

[Barnaby]

3 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Screw, sip and trip your way to enlightenment  

 

See? Dr Hunter S. Thompson right there 

[Barnaby]

13 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

How about you Barnaby?  Has your recent explorations into Buddhism given you any insight into the state of Varjyana in the West?

 

Very early days, so I wouldn't want to be making any definitive statements! 

[Shadow_self]

2 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

See? Dr Hunter S. Thompson right there 

 

I would not be so quick to judge Ian. He's more than he appears

 

My assumption is he will be going into the historic connection between the Dionysian connections to Vajrayana, which I have seen him discuss a few times.

 

Ian is a scholar, so the Dr is an academic title really. I don't see the issue?

[Barnaby]

9 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Ian is a scholar, so the Dr is an academic title really. I don't see the issue?

 

No worries, just having a laugh 

[awaken]

The idea that you can only learn the method by spending money may mislead beginners.

Regardless of spending money or not spending money, it is possible to learn the wrong method.

Don't think that you can't learn the wrong way by spending money.

According to my understanding, spending money to learn the wrong method is much higher than not spending money.

Those who really learn something must have a deep inner awakening.

Only by generating a deep inner awakening can one be able to judge the teacher.

In fact, when a person has inner awakening, what he needs is not a teacher, but a guide.

 

認為只有花錢才學得到方法的想法，恐怕會誤導初學者。

不管花錢或者不花錢，都有可能學到錯誤的方法。

不要以為花錢就不會學到錯誤的方法。

根據我了解，花錢學到錯誤的方法，遠遠高於不花錢。

真正學到東西的人，必定都有很深的內在覺醒。

只有產生深層的內在覺醒，才有能力判斷老師。

而事實上，當一個人產生內在覺醒的時候，他需要的不是老師，而是一個帶路的人。

 

A real teacher will tell the truth, but a salesman will only encourage you to spend money.

 

一個真正的老師會說真話，但是一個銷售員只會鼓勵你花錢。

 

Many people just want to spend money to find a master, but they don't know that what they may find is a liar.
True awakening comes from whether you understand your heart.

 

很多人只想花錢找大師，卻不知道可能找到的是一個騙子。
真正的覺醒來自於你自己對你的內心是否了解。

 

Do you often observe your heart?

Do you constantly observe your thoughts?

Can you see the source of your thoughts?

Can you see the effect of your thoughts on your aura?

Can you see the effect your thoughts have on your aura?

When you can't see anything and you just want to chase the master or the method, you are likely to be the one who is deceived.

 

你是否經常觀察你的內心？

你是否經常觀察你的念頭？

你是否看得到你的念頭的來源？

你是否看得到你的念頭對你的氣場的影響？

你是否看得到你的思想對你的氣場的影響？

當你什麼都看不到，你只想追逐大師或者方法的時候，你很可能就是成為那個被騙的人。

Edited January 18, 2023 by awaken

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

That's a good example of someone who's about as publicly uninterested in money as I've seen.  You probably remember at that point she laughed and said with clear distaste "I can't believe I'm one of those people with a website now!"

Yeah she totally gets the irony. It must be tricky going from monastic life (based in meditative practice no less) to lay life with all the issues and requirements of that.

 

Quote

Beth Upton is a real one.

Yeah - you can recognise that spark of Shen in her eyes.

 

I just hope those who are anti spending money on teachers don’t vampirise her gift and leave her destitute.

[Apech]

Since we are back on topic (kind of) ... it is traditional for money to change hands in the form of offerings to the Lama when receiving initiations and so on.  It's totally normal.  It doesn't have the significance that it has in the West where it's the 'root of all evil' and all that.  So it doesn't matter if people charge money at all.  What matters is the quality of what they are providing and if it is of any real value.  That's quite often measured in inverse proportion to the marketing.

 

The issue with accessing Vajrayana teachings is that as I mentioned above, they are embedded in Mahayana.  There are many valid Nyingmapa, Sakyapa and Kagyu Lamas in West - and centres run by them.  But you would be expected to study the philosophical view, take refuge, take the bodhisattva vow, do ngondro (over probably minimum 3 years min.), live according to the lay precepts and so on - before you get a sniff at any energy work and certainly the 6 yogas and wot not.  Any good Lama will explain everything step by step - some are actually Westerners and so fluent in English or French etc.

 

What people seem to want to do is 'do vajrayana' as if it is stand alone set of practices.  You can't - it doesn't exist like that.  If someone tries to sell you this - they are conning you.

 

 

[Shadow_self]

44 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yeah - you can recognise that spark of Shen in her eyes.

 

I just hope those who are anti spending money on teachers don’t vampirise her gift and leave her destitute.

 

I've interacted with Beth a while back. She is a real gem sitting under peoples nose in plain daylight  

 

Would recommend her to anyone. I always do actually

 

But as you so often say, people are too busy being captured by other, rather problematic things  

Edited January 18, 2023 by Shadow_self

[Barnaby]

47 minutes ago, freeform said:

I just hope those who are anti spending money on teachers don’t vampirise her gift and leave her destitute.

 

I trust you don't have me in mind here 

 

That's absolutely not my attitude anyway...

 

To be clear, I consider reciprocity to be entirely normal and good karmic practice.

 

What I'm wary of is when making money gets the upper hand over spirituality 

 

 

[Miffymog]

48 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yeah she totally gets the irony. It must be tricky going from monastic life (based in meditative practice no less) to lay life with all the issues and requirements of that.

 

Yeah - you can recognise that spark of Shen in her eyes.

 

I just hope those who are anti spending money on teachers don’t vampirise her gift and leave her destitute.

 

I love it. I can only sense some ones energetic level from a video after I've been doing a bit of FPCK and then gotten quite drunk.  I've decided to quit drinking for a short while because I was almost getting carried away with experimenting with my more sensitive qi levels in this state.

 

But just a week ago I watvhed a number of masters while drunk and it was fascinating comparing them.

 

For example both Thich Nhat Hanh and Master Sheng-Yen had a very full and bright and rounded energy, while Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche and Bishop Kallistos Ware were both incredibly grounded.

 

Practicing The Jesus Prayer effectively brings down spiritual energy through the body from the head, but I was surprised why Tenzin Wangyal was so similar. So I briefly introduced his basic meditation techniques in to a FPCK session, stillness of the body, silence of speech and spaciousness of mind, and I discovered that that was incredibly grounding as well.

 

I'm trying to have a few weeks off drinking, but when I do get back to it, I'm now really looking forward to watching her too!

 

And don't worry Freeform, her being vampirised and left destitute simply won't happen. Firstly, she quite simply is that silly to be taken advantage of, and I slso believe what she has to offer doesn’t run dry.

 

 

[freeform]

1 minute ago, Barnaby said:

I trust you don't have me in mind here 

 

That's absolutely not my attitude anyway...

Not at all - I recognise that you’re authentic and honourable.

 

What I mean is that as she comes out of a monastic setting - ‘normal’ people can be rather self-centered.
 

In Burma especially, charity, donation and taking care of those on the spiritual path is baked into the culture… I suspect almost every single adult donates money, time or food (or often all of those) to monasteries, monks, nuns and so on.

 

And that’s not the case in the west at all.

 

I’ve seen teachers get chewed up in this way. I hope she doesn’t as she seems rather genuine.

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, Miffymog said:

I love it. I can only sense some ones energetic level from a video after I've been doing a bit of FPCK and then gotten quite drunk.

Haha! That’s one way of doing it

 

Quote

I've decided to quit drinking for a short while because I was almost getting carried away with experimenting with my more sensitive qi levels in this state.

I’d suggest that if you’re able to do it intoxicated, you would surely be able to do it sober too.

 

It might take some more work - but you’ve got it in you… just need to find what adjustment intoxication gives you that makes it possible - then work to achieve the same thing, just without the intoxication

[freeform]

8 minutes ago, Miffymog said:

And don't worry Freeform, her being vampirised and left destitute simply won't happen. Firstly, she quite simply is that silly to be taken advantage of, and I slso believe what she has to offer doesn’t run dry.

 

I hope you’re right  

I’m sure it doesn’t run dry - but the body still needs nourishment, and rest and some sort of comfort too… as well as a break from teaching once in a while (which requires a surplus).

Edited January 18, 2023 by freeform

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

What people seem to want to do is 'do vajrayana' as if it is stand alone set of practices.  You can't - it doesn't exist like that.  If someone tries to sell you this - they are conning you.

So would you say that Vajrayana is a monastic or at least ascetic tradition that can’t be fully mastered by a lay-life practitioner?

 

That was always my impression.

[forestofclarity]

On 1/17/2023 at 11:58 AM, Wilhelm said:

I wonder what developments this will have for Varajyana in the West.  For the practitioners of the tradition - do these criticisms align with your own perception of the tradition as a whole?  Is this venture indeed necessary?

 

I would generally agree. I think that Tantra emerged primarily as a means of spiritual practice for lay persons, and over time it got co-opted into the larger Tibetan monastic institutions, at least in the Sarma traditions. In addition, the Tibetans were strong collectors, which means they essentially catalogued and kept almost every practice known to them through history. In addition, Tibetan Buddhism tends to be quite conservative and accordingly slow to change in some respects. 

 

However, I do think this is already happening, although it it really varies from teacher to teacher. 

 

25 minutes ago, freeform said:

That was always my impression.

 

 There have always been lay practitioners of Vajrayana stretching all the way back to India. From a shared melting pot, there emerged both Tantric Buddhism and Tantric Shaivism. In some sense, Vajrayana originated as a reaction and repudiation of the dominant Buddhist paradigms in India. 

 

The lay tradition survives in Tibet via ngakpas and other lay practitioners (there is also a strong history of lay Shaiva Tantric practitioners). For example, it is not unusual also to hear about lay people retiring into full time practice once their family is grown and moved away and achieving full enlightenment. There are also invisible yogis who practice secretly while living an ordinary life. The full gamut has always been present. Additionally, if you look closely, you will also see the full gamut of practices ranging from lengthy multi-day rituals to very concise, consolidated practices. 

 

In Tibet, the monastic institutions were a bit more stable and dominant as they also became the seat of political power as well as centers of learning. Accordingly, they came to dominate the public discourse.

 

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

So would you say that Vajrayana is a monastic or at least ascetic tradition that can’t be fully mastered by a lay-life practitioner?

 

That was always my impression.

No some of the greatest masters were lay practitioners.

[Wilhelm]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

2 hours ago, Apech said:

The issue with accessing Vajrayana teachings is that as I mentioned above, they are embedded in Mahayana.  There are many valid Nyingmapa, Sakyapa and Kagyu Lamas in West - and centres run by them.  But you would be expected to study the philosophical view, take refuge, take the bodhisattva vow, do ngondro (over probably minimum 3 years min.), live according to the lay precepts and so on - before you get a sniff at any energy work and certainly the 6 yogas and wot not.  Any good Lama will explain everything step by step - some are actually Westerners and so fluent in English or French etc.

Sorry to bombard you with questions, sir.  You were kind enough to answer and I'm afraid I'm taking advantage of that.

 

Is it common, or acceptable, for lay practitioners to complete the foundations you mentioned through self-study - or will those teachers of energy work/the six yogas require your affiliation with a qualified center (who can supposedly confirm your completion of the foundations)?

 

2 hours ago, Apech said:

What people seem to want to do is 'do vajrayana' as if it is stand alone set of practices.  You can't - it doesn't exist like that.  If someone tries to sell you this - they are conning you.

That makes sense in the context of how you described several lineages that fit under the name Vajrayana - nobody could be expected to know or teach all that.

 

Do you share the video subjects' view on the importance of empowerment and pilgrimages (namely that they're important to the Vajrayana path).

 

Also just realized I've been spelling it wrong until now 😬 sorry.