Taoist Texts Posted January 11, 2023 (edited) There is this ritual when a stalk or a blade of grass is inserted into the crown. Some say it is inserted into a physical hole ; some say it is inserted into a swelling lesion. My question is why to insert anything into it if that spot is visible to the eye and accessible to touch? Quote https://texts.mandala.library.virginia.edu/shanti_texts/node_embed/39036 There may be itching sensation on the crown or blood or pus oozing out to indicate the effect of the practice. Often a blade of kusha grass is pierced through the crown to check if the trainer has succeeded in phowa. I do not understand why it needs to be pierced and what exactly does the piercing proves? https://dakinitranslations.com/2022/09/25/practice-given-by-guru-padmasambhava-to-king-trisong-detsen-for-his-minister-who-accidentally-killed-his-parents-the-treasure-tradition-of-phowa-introduction-to-the-treasure-phowa-tradition-its-hist/ Edited January 11, 2023 by Taoist Texts 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted January 11, 2023 As I recall Lobsang Rampa recounts a Tibetan practice of drilling a hole in the top of the head. It is hard to understand that could be of direct value. Perhaps it is an outer form of an inner practice. For example there are often adverse entities attached to the top of human heads deliberately blocking the vertical inflow of Light. 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted January 11, 2023 I recall now that the Tibetan practice was drilling a hole in the forehead so that the third eye would operate. It seems a very dense approach to a spiritual faculty. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Creation Posted January 12, 2023 5 hours ago, Lairg said: As I recall Lobsang Rampa recounts a Tibetan practice of drilling a hole in the top of the head. This is a fabrication and of no relevance to discussions of actual Tibetan practices. 2 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, Creation said: This is a fabrication given who he was it most likely is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobsang_Rampa now the question is - how we know the grass inserting story is not a fabrication as well? one way to know is to ask 'is there a reason to do that'? And there is none so far 11 hours ago, Lairg said: It is hard to understand that could be of direct value. exactly! no reason no value... now, to me the reason is a religious vestige of Hinduism (similar to medicine buddha=shiva). the ritual is intended to turn the practicer into the god Vishnu providing the former with a token of Vishnu's hair: Quote The Garuda Purana states that the kusha grass is born of the hair of Vishnu, and that it offers residence to the essence of all three of the Trimurti. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kusha_grass Edited January 12, 2023 by Taoist Texts 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lairg Posted January 12, 2023 Lobsang Rampa (at least in the earliest books) has some significance. His publisher variously described him and tall and fair, and short and dark. Perhaps he really was moving his substance to his new body. It is likely that important Tibetan techniques were veiled with allegory. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zhongyongdaoist Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) 23 hours ago, Taoist Texts said: There is this ritual when a stalk or a blade of grass is inserted into the crown. Some say it is inserted into a physical hole ; some say it is inserted into a swelling lesion. My question is why to insert anything into it if that spot is visible to the eye and accessible to touch? Quote https://texts.mandala.library.virginia.edu/shanti_texts/node_embed/39036 There may be itching sensation on the crown or blood or pus oozing out to indicate the effect of the practice. Often a blade of kusha grass is pierced through the crown to check if the trainer has succeeded in phowa. I do not understand why it needs to be pierced and what exactly does the piercing proves? https://dakinitranslations.com/2022/09/25/practice-given-by-guru-padmasambhava-to-king-trisong-detsen-for-his-minister-who-accidentally-killed-his-parents-the-treasure-tradition-of-phowa-introduction-to-the-treasure-phowa-tradition-its-hist/ 9 hours ago, Taoist Texts said: Quote The Garuda Purana states that the kusha grass is born of the hair of Vishnu, and that it offers residence to the essence of all three of the Trimurti. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kusha_grass It is surprising that you would visit Wikipedia for Kusha grass and not simple check out the entry for Phowa which explains the practice in detail. Simple summary, the whole in the top of the head is so that the practitioner can leave the body at the time of death, the point of putting the grass in the whole is to acknowledge success at the practice and show that you are a truly holely Buddhist (bad pun is intentional and not merely "sic" humor). Quote Signs of success The mark of a successful phowa practice is a small drop of blood directly from the center of the vertex.[clarification needed] To demonstrate a successful practice traditionally a Kusha-grass was pushed into the small opening created in the fontanel.[7][8] According to Khenpo Tsultrim Lodrö, the “mark of a successful phowa is that after death, there is visible hair loss, a bump or some yellow liquid seeping around the vertex” at the crown of the head.[9] (Wikipedia, article on Phowa) I hope that clears up the confusion. I could say more about Lopsang Rampa, but why bother? ZYD Edited January 12, 2023 by Zhongyongdaoist I put parentheses around "sic" above to show that it is not a mispelling of sick, but another bad joke. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shadow_self Posted January 12, 2023 22 hours ago, Taoist Texts said: There is this ritual when a stalk or a blade of grass is inserted into the crown. Some say it is inserted into a physical hole ; some say it is inserted into a swelling lesion. My question is why to insert anything into it if that spot is visible to the eye and accessible to touch? I do not understand why it needs to be pierced and what exactly does the piercing proves? Cant speak for that lineage specifically , but my understanding is via the practice you alter the structure of the posterior fontanelle, and reopen a space near where it originally was, such that at the time of death, consciousness can be directed out of that aperture. I believe it is more of an emergency thing, a "break glass in case of" if you would Pretty sure theres a similar practice done in neidan too. Check out the Zhen Longhu Jiuxian Jing, there's discussions around it there. Being able to get the blade of grass in is a sign that you've successfully opened that space 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted January 12, 2023 58 minutes ago, Shadow_self said: Being able to get the blade of grass in is a sign that you've successfully opened that space 1 hour ago, Zhongyongdaoist said: the point of putting the grass in the whole is to acknowledge success at the practice and show that you are a truly holely Buddhist thank you very much you good gentlemen. So you both believe that the grass is just a sign to show serving no useful purpose except showing success. Thats a valid viewpoint. Of course i am still in doubt why you need an addition sign beyond a visible hole? Is the hole too small to see without the grass? And to whom is the sign directed to? The rest of the monastery? And if it is just a sign why to keep the grass there for three days? Quote Next morning when Lopon looked, he was at last able to insert a blade of kusha grass, which must stand upright in the hole in the fontanelle to demonstrate that the practice has been successful. The blade of grass was about twelve inches long and remained upright for three days. https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/msg175605.html Thanks again for your replies! Your are the best! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted January 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Shadow_self said: Check out the Zhen Longhu Jiuxian Jing, there's discussions around it there. https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=829751&remap=gb perhaps. The crown is mentioned 28 times but nothing about the grass in the hole. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shadow_self Posted January 12, 2023 6 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said: thank you very much you good gentlemen. So you both believe that the grass is just a sign to show serving no useful purpose except showing success. Thats a valid viewpoint. Of course i am still in doubt why you need an addition sign beyond a visible hole? Is the hole too small to see without the grass? And to whom is the sign directed to? The rest of the monastery? And if it is just a sign why to keep the grass there for three days? Thanks again for your replies! Your are the best! 5 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said: https://ctext.org/wiki.pl?if=gb&chapter=829751&remap=gb perhaps. The crown is mentioned 28 times but nothing about the grass in the hole. Just two points here 1. Perhaps it was to prove it to the practitioner, not the teacher. after all the hole can be quite small starting out. Have you ever tried inspecting your own posterior fontanelle? Keep in mind these things were developed long before a camera Some rather interesting pictures here https://www.gloje.org/en/phowa_dharma_auspicious_signs 2. The 3 days. 3 days seems to be a common thing in various traditions. I would not read into it too much. Either there's a reason or its just a tradition Here's a counter question. How come you are concerned with this? Seems a rather trivial point to be concerned with no? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted January 12, 2023 1 hour ago, Shadow_self said: Here's a counter question. good question. Quote How come you are concerned with this? Seems a rather trivial point to be concerned with no? yes it is trivial for most. but for a professional like me its an important research topic: the last stage of the whole process! Also it is an intellectual puzzle which is amusing to solve especially when all the experts are so widely mistaken on it. In reality what is going on here is a sacred grass (kusha in tibet/india or yarrow in china) is needed to find and to improve the hole. The hole is not a physical, visible opening as the experts naively think but an energetic one which transforms the flesh and bone around itself into a mix of matter/energy that can be penetrated with a sacred grass only. Without inserting a grass the opening is not visible. And the purpose of the grass insertion is twofold: 1st - to find and to confirm the hole; 2nd - to enlarge and to preserve it energetically . (an additional layer of complexity here is that all of the above might take place not in physical reality but in the minds of the native buddhist community). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shadow_self Posted January 12, 2023 3 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said: good question. yes it is trivial for most. but for a professional like me its an important research topic: the last stage of the whole process! Also it is an intellectual puzzle which is amusing to solve especially when all the experts are so widely mistaken on it. I dont find it important, but I dont practice it so thats why. Im sure its very important to those who do 3 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said: In reality what is going on here is a sacred grass (kusha in tibet/india or yarrow in china) is needed to find and to improve the hole. The hole is not a physical, visible opening as the experts naively think but an energetic one which transforms the flesh and bone around itself into a mix of matter/energy that can be penetrated with a sacred grass only. Without inserting a grass the opening is not visible. And the purpose of the grass insertion is twofold: 1st - to find and to confirm the hole; 2nd - to enlarge and to preserve it energetically . (an additional layer of complexity here is that all of the above might take place not in physical reality but in the minds of the native buddhist community). Sorry what might take place? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you meant? Though Im not big into the whole sacred grass thing. Ill leave you to do that research friend 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cobie Posted January 12, 2023 (edited) 4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said: …The hole is not a physical, visible opening … but an energetic one … That’s been my experience. Quote … not in physical reality but in the minds … All systems are mental constructs that can be discarded when the goal has been reached. 4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said: … Without inserting a grass the opening is not visible … Sure, it takes grass (pot, weed) Edited January 12, 2023 by Cobie 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites