Side effects

[Maddie]

Lately I've noticed that if I'm going to work out and I do yoga to stretch beforehand I will get really emotional and often just ditch the workout because I'm not feeling so well. I had stopped doing Qigong several years ago for similar reasons and I'm just wondering is this an actual thing and if so why?

[ChiDragon]

Everyone has a different understanding about Qigong. What is Qigong to you?

[snowymountains]

29 minutes ago, Maddie said:

Lately I've noticed that if I'm going to work out and I do yoga to stretch beforehand I will get really emotional and often just ditch the workout because I'm not feeling so well. I had stopped doing Qigong several years ago for similar reasons and I'm just wondering is this an actual thing and if so why?

 

If you get really emotional, observe the bodily sensations and the emotion, observe what thoughts come to mind then and if they come before or after the feelings & emotions.

After you've gathered this information, the question is how to interpret the info your nervous system is giving you and what to do about it.

 

You probably already know what I believe is the best environment to explore these questions😊 perhaps there are options at a reasonable cost and within reasonable distance from where you live.

[stirling]

5 hours ago, Maddie said:

Lately I've noticed that if I'm going to work out and I do yoga to stretch beforehand I will get really emotional and often just ditch the workout because I'm not feeling so well. I had stopped doing Qigong several years ago for similar reasons and I'm just wondering is this an actual thing and if so why?

 

Maddie, this is what practice is FOR. Sounds like your practice is working. Congratulations!

 

In the Mahayana traditions this is how the knots of twisted karma get untwisted. I have never been to a retreat where at LEAST one person didn't burst into tears on the meditation cushion having had some past event come to attention and find the spaciousness and safety in the mind to fully release itself. Releasing your karma creates the space for deep realization, and can happen wherever the mind is still enough to create the necessary spaciousness. In Vajrayana LIFE is the path, providing every opportunity needed for full realization if we practice with whatever comes up. 

 

 

[snowymountains]

8 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Maddie, this is what practice is FOR. Sounds like your practice is working. Congratulations!

 

In the Mahayana traditions this is how the knots of twisted karma get untwisted. I have never been to a retreat where at LEAST one person didn't burst into tears on the meditation cushion having had some past event come to attention and find the spaciousness and safety in the mind to fully release itself. Releasing your karma creates the space for deep realization, and can happen wherever the mind is still enough to create the necessary spaciousness. In Vajrayana LIFE is the path, providing every opportunity needed for full realization if we practice with whatever comes up. 

 

 

 

The practice is working as intended but that's also the boundary of the practice.

Next steps are to uncover why the emotion surfaces, what message this emotion conveys, then decide what to do about it, and that's a different type of work altogether.

 

Meditation practices in general are great to increase awareness ( among the other benefits they bring ), what they lack is a coherent framework on what to do with that newly gained awareness.

 

I'd say, though I have no relationship with vajrayana, that life is the path by definition.

Everything else, including meditation, therapy, philosophy are drills to enact changes in life.

[snowymountains]

Btw within a meditation-only framework the answer is to observe the emotion and related body-mind activities instead of continuing practice onto something else - that's sometimes the downside with group sessions, that the group schedule ( eg move onto a bodily exercise ) may be not what's best for a practitioner at a given moment.

 

The above still won't uncover the message nor how to act on it.

[stirling]

6 hours ago, snowymountains said:

The practice is working as intended but that's also the boundary of the practice.

Next steps are to uncover why the emotion surfaces, what message this emotion conveys, then decide what to do about it, and that's a different type of work altogether.

 

Just to clarify, the nature of an insight IS understanding how a mental pattern is/was established and what delusion perpetuates it. The point of Buddhism is to relieve the struggle (suffering) with the events of our lives. This is the point of the Four Noble Truths. It is a system that has been in use for over 2500 years and worked for countless people. Psychotherapy, in contrast, is only about 200 years old. Do I think it has its place? Absolutely! I have used it myself and found it effective. Would I argue for it being exceptional? Which of the thousand or so modalities/conceptual constructs that comprise it would we be talking about? 

 

6 hours ago, snowymountains said:

Meditation practices in general are great to increase awareness ( among the other benefits they bring ), what they lack is a coherent framework on what to do with that newly gained awareness.

 

Meditation on its own isn't a bad idea in moderation, but where space is made in the mind, trauma rises to the foreground. It is much better to work with a teacher of some non-dual tradition if it is going to become a serious pursuit. Where meditation is ONLY a practice, there is still some learning to do to use it effectively. See above. 

 

6 hours ago, snowymountains said:

I'd say, though I have no relationship with vajrayana, that life is the path by definition.

Everything else, including meditation, therapy, philosophy are drills to enact changes in life.

That's great, but do you live your day to day life looking at how attachment to things going your way, or aversion to things you don't want are mental roadblocks but also part of larger patterns of behavior in your life, recognize or identify those patterns, and work to let go of them moment to moment? THAT is what I am talking about. That is a life lived firmly on the path of liberation from suffering. 

 

-

 

Listen, I respect your viewpoint. I agree that therapy can be helpful to creating a more harmonious mental landscape and happier self. I took 20 units of psychology at university, and in that limited scope came to support its use wholeheartedly. I am fine with you disagreeing with me, and even having your own conceptual construct about how things are, but the denigration of other traditions or systems, especially when you don't fully understand them, or want to, just isn't cricket. How would it be to say, "I disagree" and leave it at that? I can be fine with that too. 

[Maddie]

11 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

Just to clarify, the nature of an insight IS understanding how a mental pattern is/was established and what delusion perpetuates it. The point of Buddhism is to relieve the struggle (suffering) with the events of our lives. This is the point of the Four Noble Truths.

 

I was thinking this as well. 

[liminal_luke]

22 hours ago, Maddie said:

Lately I've noticed that if I'm going to work out and I do yoga to stretch beforehand I will get really emotional and often just ditch the workout because I'm not feeling so well. I had stopped doing Qigong several years ago for similar reasons and I'm just wondering is this an actual thing and if so why?

 

17 hours ago, stirling said:

 

Maddie, this is what practice is FOR. Sounds like your practice is working. Congratulations!

 

In the Mahayana traditions this is how the knots of twisted karma get untwisted. I have never been to a retreat where at LEAST one person didn't burst into tears on the meditation cushion having had some past event come to attention and find the spaciousness and safety in the mind to fully release itself. Releasing your karma creates the space for deep realization, and can happen wherever the mind is still enough to create the necessary spaciousness. In Vajrayana LIFE is the path, providing every opportunity needed for full realization if we practice with whatever comes up. 

 

 

 

I agree.  The path of karmic untwisting is, shall we say, not entirely pleasant.  What needs attention sometimes is pacing.  People vary in terms of physiology, personality, and traumatic history.  Some people can handle long intensive retreats while others would be well advised to take things slow.

Edited June 17 by liminal_luke

[Apech]

7 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

 

I agree.  The path of karmic untwisting is, shall we say, not entirely pleasant.  What needs attention sometimes is pacing.  People vary in terms of physiology, personality, and traumatic history.  Some people can handle long intensive retreats while others would be well advised to take things slow.

I am beginning to think that almost any kind of formulaic process or technique is non- productive.  What we all need to be doing is attend to our selves ( body and mind) and respond to what arises naturally.  Not without rules but with intelligence about ourselves and the world.  Often formulaic practice provokes tensions which are harmful.

[Maddie]

8 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

 

I agree.  The path of karmic untwisting is, shall we say, not entirely pleasant.  What needs attention sometimes is pacing.  People vary in terms of physiology, personality, and traumatic history.  Some people can handle long intensive retreats while others would be well advised to take things slow.

 

That sounds like good advice. With Zhunti mantra practice I got pretty intense since I was trying to not go out of business. I knew it was going to suck and it is. I hope business improves to the point soon when I can back off a bit and be more chill with it. At least it has seemed to make a difference. 

[liminal_luke]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

I am beginning to think that almost any kind of formulaic process or technique is non- productive.  What we all need to be doing is attend to our selves ( body and mind) and respond to what arises naturally.  Not without rules but with intelligence about ourselves and the world.  Often formulaic practice provokes tensions which are harmful.

 

Your idea reminds me of something I noticed when I was getting zapchen (somatic counseling) sessions.  Sometimes I would come in to the session with a fixed idea of something I wanted to work on, and sometimes I just let thing develop naturally.  The sessions where my zapchen coach and I simply attended and responded to what came up in the moment were always more productive.

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

  The sessions where my zapchen coach and I simply attended and responded to what came up in the moment were always more productive.

 

Sounds like mindfulness :-)

[snowymountains]

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Just to clarify, the nature of an insight IS understanding how a mental pattern is/was established and what delusion perpetuates it.

 

But it doesn't have the tools to do that, it's scope is more limited than that.

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

It is a system that has been in use for over 2500 years and worked for countless people. Psychotherapy, in contrast, is only about 200 years old. Do I think it has its place? Absolutely! I have used it myself and found it effective. Would I argue for it being exceptional? Which of the thousand or so modalities/conceptual constructs that comprise it would we be talking about? 

 

All major modalities CBT, Schema, object relation psychodynamics (Bowlby), PCT & Existential, all are very excellent, these are also all evidence based.

Others are good too but either due to being less structured like Gestalt are not evidence based, and other non-evidence based ones, like Jungian, or other neo-Freudian schools, all these are very good. (minor edit: probably more should be on this list, I just don't have any view for e.g. psychosynthesis or EMDR or Lacanian and others)

 

There's no comparison between theraupetic techniques and insight meditation practices, therapy is infinitely more effective at anything it claims to do, there's just so much insight meditation does not even scratch the surface of.

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

 

Meditation on its own isn't a bad idea in moderation, but where space is made in the mind, trauma rises to the foreground. It is much better to work with a teacher of some non-dual tradition if it is going to become a serious pursuit. Where meditation is ONLY a practice, there is still some learning to do to use it effectively. See above. 

 

For trauma ( and clearly not referring to Maddie here ) only therapy is effective, teachers of non-dual traditions don't know anything about dealing with trauma, psychotherapists who specialise in trauma do.

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

That's great, but do you live your day to day life looking at how attachment to things going your way, or aversion to things you don't want are mental roadblocks but also part of larger patterns of behavior in your life, recognize or identify those patterns, and work to let go of them moment to moment? THAT is what I am talking about. That is a life lived firmly on the path of liberation from suffering. 

day to day, I aim to live unconditioned.

 

1 hour ago, stirling said:

Listen, I respect your viewpoint. I agree that therapy can be helpful to creating a more harmonious mental landscape and happier self. I took 20 units of psychology at university, and in that limited scope came to support its use wholeheartedly. I am fine with you disagreeing with me, and even having your own conceptual construct about how things are, but the denigration of other traditions or systems, especially when you don't fully understand them, or want to, just isn't cricket. How would it be to say, "I disagree" and leave it at that? I can be fine with that too. 

 

They're very good for what they are, they're great practices for what they can do but not for what they can't do. Saying the limitations of a practice is not denigration and it's better to understand their limitations than claim they are complete, the later is lack of understanding of their scope and limitations.

Edited June 17 by snowymountains

[snowymountains]

26 minutes ago, Apech said:

I am beginning to think that almost any kind of formulaic process or technique is non- productive.  What we all need to be doing is attend to our selves ( body and mind) and respond to what arises naturally.  Not without rules but with intelligence about ourselves and the world.  Often formulaic practice provokes tensions which are harmful.

 

Imo formulaic is good to learn the technique, one dedicates time and space for it is always good to keep a proportion formulaic in order not to "deskill" of sorts. I see them as having the same role drills have in sports, they have their place.

 

Other than that absolutely, the "real" part can only be non-formulaic.

[stirling]

9 minutes ago, snowymountains said:

But it doesn't have the tools to do that, it's scope is more limited than that.

 

All major modalities CBT, Schema, object relation psychodynamics (Bowlby), PCT & Existential, all are very excellent, these are also all evidence based.

Others are good too but either due to being less structured like Gestalt are not evidence based, and other non-evidence based ones, like Jungian, or other neo-Freudian schools, all these are very good.

 

There's no comparison between theraupetic techniques and insight meditation practices, therapy is infinitely more effective at anything it claims to do, there's just so much insight meditation does not even scratch the surface of.

 

For trauma ( and clearly not referring to Maddie here ) only therapy is effective, teachers of non-dual traditions don't know anything about dealing with trauma, psychotherapists who specialise in trauma do.

 

day to day, I aim to live unconditioned.

 

They're very good for what they are, they're great practices for what they can do but not for what they can't do. Saying the limitations of a practice is not denigration and it's better to understand their limitations than claim they are complete, the later is lack of understanding of their scope and limitations.

 

As I said in my previous post, you don't fully understand  what I am talking about, or want to. Your training clearly hasn't included any kind of grasp of nirodha, or enlightenment or you wouldn't be arguing these points with me, which is fine, and even normal.

 

Practices have limitations, realization assuredly does not.

[Forestgreen]

2 hours ago, stirling said:

 

As I said in my previous post, you don't fully understand  what I am talking about, or want to. Your training clearly hasn't included any kind of grasp of nirodha, or enlightenment or you wouldn't be arguing these points with me, which is fine, and even normal.

 

Practices have limitations, realization assuredly does not.

The assumption here is that a person with enough emotional baggage will be able to clear that up in a meditative setting, and reach realization. 

 

And surely, you have met some that fit into that model. 

The question is, have you never encountered people who get emotional reactions as a result of meditative practice, who try to continue with that, and have emotional breakdowns instead of realization? 

 

I would say that for the broken, neither psychotherapy nor meditation works perfectly. 

[snowymountains]

6 hours ago, stirling said:

 

As I said in my previous post, you don't fully understand  what I am talking about, or want to. Your training clearly hasn't included any kind of grasp of nirodha, or enlightenment or you wouldn't be arguing these points with me, which is fine, and even normal.

 

Practices have limitations, realization assuredly does not.

 

It's the opposite, meditation practices do not have the tools needed to bring all processes to awareness, they have nearly nothing to understand them and make changes when desired.

Of course to see this one needs to know the techniques and skills, otherwise they may think they are something meant to address only trauma.

 

 

I am making these points, exactly because there are modalities and protocols which work infinitely better than meditative practices, or dancing, or tennis for questions like what is an emotion that resurfaced, what does it mean, what are the options.

 

 

This doesn't mean meditation, dancing and tennis aren't good practices, they're just not capable of exploring questions like this, similarly to how therapy and counselling will not bring Jhanas, pirouettes and slalom.

 

 

[snowymountains]

4 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

The assumption here is that a person with enough emotional baggage will be able to clear that up in a meditative setting, and reach realization. 

 

And surely, you have met some that fit into that model. 

The question is, have you never encountered people who get emotional reactions as a result of meditative practice, who try to continue with that, and have emotional breakdowns instead of realization? 

 

I would say that for the broken, neither psychotherapy nor meditation works perfectly. 

 

The assumption is even bigger actually that the use of therapy is confined to something exclusively clinical as in e.g. trauma, which is simply untrue.

Subclinical goals ( i.e. "I want to wake up more energised in the morning" ) are valid therapy goals.

Something entirely benign as self discovery is a perfectly valid therapy goal and this includes understanding emotions that surface. Therapy is extremely effective at this.

 

There's also the silent assumption there that because meditation brought a memory to awareness ( clearly unrelated to Maddie again ) it did something special, it didn't.

 

Actually traumatic memories in specific are not "blocked by a defence mechanism", unlike what popular books on Amazon claim, including books by psychologists and therapists or older theories.

 

Harvard Prof. McNally has actually proved this clinically and it is his work that is considered the golden standard on this topic.

 

it's not hard to bring them to awareness either, it's more the case that because they're unpleasant, consciously for a moment, people choose not to pay attention and then hop the mind onto something else, so nothing is done about them.

 

In meditation what happens is that because of the combination of relaxation and letting go they may become an object of focus more easily.

Of course there are other ways to bring them to awareness, there's nothing magical about it.

 

For the "broken" - again unrelated to Maddie - ( are they? Are they something fixed, are they a pathology? or are they simply people with many sides who also happen to now suffer from a psychopathology? ) therapy can help a lot.

It's no guarantee just like medical doctors cannot "fix" all herniated discs cases, they can fix some, improve others and in some they can't.

But therapy is the only tool.

Edited June 18 by snowymountains

[stirling]

14 hours ago, snowymountains said:

It's the opposite, meditation practices do not have the tools needed to bring all processes to awareness, they have nearly nothing to understand them and make changes when desired.

Of course to see this one needs to know the techniques and skills, otherwise they may think they are something meant to address only trauma.

 

I am making these points, exactly because there are modalities and protocols which work infinitely better than meditative practices, or dancing, or tennis for questions like what is an emotion that resurfaced, what does it mean, what are the options.

 

This doesn't mean meditation, dancing and tennis aren't good practices, they're just not capable of exploring questions like this, similarly to how therapy and counselling will not bring Jhanas, pirouettes and slalom.

 

I could explain to you why Buddhism is a lot more than just meditation, but I already know that this discussion goes nowhere. I disagree with you, and have made it clear why. I don't think there is any advantage in discussing this further.

 

[snowymountains]

2 minutes ago, stirling said:

 

I could explain to you why Buddhism is a lot more than just meditation, but I already know that this discussion goes nowhere. I disagree with you, and have made it clear why. I don't think there is any advantage in discussing this further.

 

 

While it may not be only its meditation component, nonetheless lacks the tools, knowledge and the framework for a topic as emotions surfacing, similarly to how it's not trauma therapy.

 

I agree, this discussion makes no sense to continue.

[Mark Foote]

On 6/17/2024 at 11:52 AM, snowymountains said:

 

day to day, I aim to live unconditioned.

 

 

 

Nisargadatta, a famous teacher who lived in India in the last century, said:

 

You are not your body, but you are the consciousness in the body, because of which you have the awareness of “I am”. It is without words, just pure beingness. Meditation means you have to hold consciousness by itself. The consciousness should give attention to itself.

 

(Gaitonde, Mohan [2017]. Self – Love: The Original Dream [Shri Nisargadatta Maharaj’s Direct Pointers to Reality]. Mumbai: Zen Publications. ISBN 978-9385902833)

 

 

“The consciousness should give attention to itself”—in thirteenth-century Japan, Eihei Dogen wrote:

 

Therefore, …take the backward step of turning the light and shining it back.

 

(“Fukan zazengi” Tenpuku version; tr. Carl Bielefeldt, “Dogen’s Manuals of Zen Meditation”, p 176)

 

 

That’s a poetic way to say “the consciousness should give attention to itself”.

 

I used to talk about the location of consciousness, but a friend of mine would always respond that for him, consciousness has no specific location. As a result, I switched to writing about the placement of attention:

 

There can… come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

 

(A Way of Living)

 

 

In his “Genjo Koan”, Dogen wrote:

 

When you find your place where you are, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point.

 

(“Genjo Koan [Actualizing the Fundamental Point]”, tr. Tanahashi)

 

 

Given a presence of mind that can “hold consciousness by itself”, activity in the body begins to coordinate by virtue of the sense of place associated with consciousness.  A relationship between the free location of consciousness and activity in the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, “practice occurs”.  Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested in the activity of the body.

 

Dogen continued:

 

When you find your way at this moment, practice occurs, actualizing the fundamental point…

 

(ibid)

 

 

“When you find your way at this moment”, activity takes place solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. A relationship between the freedom of consciousness and the automatic activity of the body comes forward, and as that relationship comes forward, practice occurs. Through such practice, the placement of consciousness is manifested as the activity of the body.

 

I sit down first thing in the morning and last thing at night, and I look to experience the activity of the body solely by virtue of the free location of consciousness. As a matter of daily life, just to touch on such experience as occasion demands—for me, that’s enough.

 

("Take the Backward Step")

 

 

My approach, to living as unconditioned as I can manage.

 

 

[johndoe2012]

On 18.6.2024 at 11:24 PM, stirling said:

 

I could explain to you why Buddhism is a lot more than just meditation, but I already know that this discussion goes nowhere. I disagree with you, and have made it clear why. I don't think there is any advantage in discussing this further.

 

 

The guy goes on a spiritual forum praising pop psychology as if it were the best thing since sliced bread. 

 

His pop psychology hasn't managed to dissolve his black and white thinking, a sure sign he hasn't made any progress so far at all. 

[Forestgreen]

On 2024-06-18 at 8:53 AM, snowymountains said:

 

Subclinical goals ( i.e. "I want to wake up more energised in the morning" ) are valid therapy goals.

Buddhist qigong would do that.

On 2024-06-18 at 8:53 AM, snowymountains said:

Something entirely benign as self discovery is a perfectly valid therapy goal and this includes understanding emotions that surface.

Shaolin traditions, and I assume other traditions within buddhism as well, developed excellent methods that allow one to explore emotions and interpersonal reactions. 

Buddhism is so much more than jhana and samma sati. 

On 2024-06-18 at 8:53 AM, snowymountains said:

 

Harvard Prof. McNally has actually proved this clinically and it is his work that is considered the golden standard on this topic.

Seems to be almost 20 years old? 

There is probably new research in state dependent memories. 

On 2024-06-18 at 8:53 AM, snowymountains said:

 

For the "broken" - /... .../ ( are they?

Many, yes.

All, no.

On 2024-06-18 at 8:53 AM, snowymountains said:

But therapy is the only tool.

Including buddhist methods that are created to work in a therapeutic way.

[snowymountains]

2 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Shaolin traditions, and I assume other traditions within buddhism as well, developed excellent methods that allow one to explore emotions and interpersonal reactions. 

Buddhism is so much more than jhana and samma sati. 

 

It has some methods for emotions indeed, excellent is not the word I'd use to describe them, they do have their uses under specific circumstances.

 

2 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Seems to be almost 20 years old? 

There is probably new research in state dependent memories. 

 

It is the state of the art today as well.

I chuckled a bit when state of the art results are classed as 20 years old when in the same post shaolin methods are proposed.

 

2 hours ago, Forestgreen said:

Including buddhist methods that are created to work in a therapeutic way.

 

They're not therapy though and neither are Buddhist teachers therapists, unless of course they so happen to be trained, qualified and licensed.