Mind Body cultivation

[Maddie]

It was recommended that I turn a question I asked in another post into it's own post, so here goes.

 

Buddhism basically ignores the body in cultivation and focuses on cultivating the mind with the mind.

 

My question is aside from systems like Qigong and Yoga asana being healthy for the body, can they be used to cultivate the mind and if so, how so?

[liminal_luke]

Perhaps I've spent too much time looking at crystals in New Age bookstores and burning Nag Champa, but are the body and the mind really separate at all?  I believe thoughts are things, actual physical bodily things.  I've read that clinical depression is associated with measurable shifts in neuroanatomy.  Our lab tools may not quite be up to the challenge of detecting the physical changes in the brain when we think stuff, but, if we're not there yet, we'll get there.  Likewise, there's no bodily change that does not provoke a corresponding shift in what we call our minds.  

 

Journaling has been shown to benefit quality of life for people living with rheumatoid arthritis.  The much-maligned practice of "mindfulness" is widely held to decrease stress -- and all the physiological correlates of stress.  Plain old exercise routinely cheers Jane Fonda aerobics devotees.  Yoga and qigong are also potent mind medicine.  Change the body, change the mind.  

Edited January 21, 2023 by liminal_luke

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, dmattwads said:

My question is aside from systems like Qigong and Yoga asana being healthy for the body, can they be used to cultivate the mind and if so, how so?

To my best understanding about the cultivation of the mind. It is not a biological thing. Rather, it is a mantle one. Cultivating the mind is to increase the wisdom and keep the mind pure without malicious thoughts.

P.S. The Chinese Taoist term for the cultivation of the mind and body is 性命雙修 (xìngmìng shuāng xiū).  心理健康與生理健康同時並重. It was concerned with both the mantle health and physical health.

Edited January 21, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Wilhelm]

4 hours ago, dmattwads said:

It was recommended that I turn a question I asked in another post into it's own post, so here goes.

 

Buddhism basically ignores the body in cultivation and focuses on cultivating the mind with the mind.

 

My question is aside from systems like Qigong and Yoga asana being healthy for the body, can they be used to cultivate the mind and if so, how so?

I think that's highly dependent on which Buddhist system you mean, right?

 

Part of Bodhidharma's thing was teaching the Shaolin monks how to correctly use their body to deepen their meditative practice.  I study Yi Jin Jing which is said to come from here.

 

Then there's tantric Buddhism (the origins of which has been debated on this forum recently) which heavily engages the body.

 

But yeah I know of traditions that try to go past it from the outset to, so I know what you're getting at.

 

How Qigong cultivates the mind is (in my opinion) through the methods of the Yi Jin Jing - by enhancing the system of the body so its more prepared for meditation (simplified answer).

 

Edit: Long answer here - 

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by Wilhelm

[ChiDragon]

42 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Yi Jin Jing

I believe Yi Jin Jing is the cultivation of the body. Meditation is the cultivation of the mind that does not require any prerequisite.

[Wilhelm]

12 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

I believe Yi Jin Jing is the cultivation of the body. Meditation is the cultivation of the mind that does not require any prerequisite.

I agree that meditation (in terms of simple sitting practice) does not require any prerequisite, but maybe some are useful for most of us.

 

What do you think the Yi Jin Jing was cultivating the body for?  Was Bodhidharma an exercise enthusiast as well as Zen master?

[Lairg]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

are the body and the mind really separate at all? 

 

It may be useful to distinguish brain-thoughts from mind-thoughts.  For example in NDE it is common that there is no brain activity while the human is observing everything from near the top of the operating theatre.

 

Further, the mind-body dichotomy seems to ignore the emotions-heart dichotomy.  Women certainly notice the lack.

 

 

 

 

[Maddie]

40 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I agree that meditation (in terms of simple sitting practice) does not require any prerequisite, but maybe some are useful for most of us.

 

What do you think the Yi Jin Jing was cultivating the body for?  Was Bodhidharma an exercise enthusiast as well as Zen master?

 

Yes this is a good question. He obviously developed this system for some reason. 

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

I agree that meditation (in terms of simple sitting practice) does not require any prerequisite, but maybe some are useful for most of us.

 

What do you think the Yi Jin Jing was cultivating the body for?  Was Bodhidharma an exercise enthusiast as well as Zen master?

There is a difference in meditation between Taoist and Buddhist. Taoist meditation is to keep the mind empty without any thought but just breathing to practice Qigong. Buddhist meditation is to keep the mind full with the intention to sort things out in an unresolved philosophy. After the philosophy is resolved then it was said to become enlightened. Buddhist meditation also may be used to create a new philosophy by putting deep thoughts in a particular subject. After the new philosophy is completed, again, it was considered an enlightenment.

Yi Jin Jing(YJJ) is to change the tendons and joints in the body as it says. YJJ makes the tendon more flexible and loosen up the body joints and muscles to enhance the body movement. The intention of YJJ is to exercise the body to be more alert with quicker reflex.

Bodhidharma went to China and saw the Shaolin monks were sitting all day without exercise. So, he invented the exercise for the monks to have a better physical body health. The Zen masters are more concern with the high level of Buddhist philosophy by going into deep thought to sort things out in meditation. When the thoughts are completed, it was considered another enlightenment.

Edited January 21, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Wilhelm]

13 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

There is a difference in meditation between Taoist and Buddhist. Taoist meditation is to keep the mind empty without any thought but just breathing to practice Qigong. Buddhist meditation is to keep the mind full with the intention to sort things out in an unresolved philosophy. After the philosophy is resolved then it was said to become enlightened. Buddhist meditation also may be used to create a new philosophy by putting deep thoughts in a particular subject. After the new philosophy is completed, again, it was considered an enlightenment.

Yi Jin Jing(YJJ) is to change the tendons and joints in the body as it says. YJJ makes the tendon more flexible and loosen up the body joints and muscles to enhance the body movement. The intention of YJJ is to exercise the body to be more alert with quicker reflex.

Bodhidharma went to China and saw the Shaolin monks were sitting all day without exercise. So, he invented the exercise for the monks to have a better physical body health. The Zen masters are more concern with the high level of Buddhist philosophy by going into deep thought to sort things out in meditation. When the thoughts are completed, it was considered another enlightenment.

Why do you think Bodhidharma was concerned with the monks' physical health?  Was he acting as a physician for the monks?

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Why do you think Bodhidharma was concerned with the monks' physical health?  Was he acting as a physician for the monks?

After Bodhidharma went into Chins to introduce Buddhism, I believe those monks were his first students. I had watch a Chinese documentary from YouTube and it is how it was described.

[Wilhelm]

2 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

After Bodhidharma went into Chins to introduce Buddhism, I believe those monks were his first students. I had watch a Chinese documentary from YouTube and it is how it was described.

So if I've got this straight - you believe the man sometimes acknowledged as the greatest Zen Master (and the patriarch of the whole tradition) had a side gig as a personal trainer with a particular obsession with the tendon reflexes?

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

So if I've got this straight - you believe the man sometimes acknowledged as the greatest Zen Master (and the patriarch of the whole tradition) had a side gig as a personal trainer with a particular obsession with the tendon reflexes?

It was just an exercise which what it is called. It benefits the whole body, the tendons, body joints and muscles. The tile with the term jin, tendon (筋), it doesn't mean it only applies to tendon only. The term Yi Jin Jing is inclusive. It is a matter of interpretation and understanding.

[Wilhelm]

23 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

It was just an exercise which what it is called. It benefits the whole body, the tendons, body joints and muscles. The tile with the term jin, tendon (筋), it doesn't mean it only applies to tendon only. The term Yi Jin Jing is inclusive. It is a matter of interpretation and understanding.

Well if your interpretation and understanding is correct and he indeed functioned as a modern personal trainer would to the monks of the Shaolin Temple then we can safely conclude that his methods were inefficient as nowhere in the world of modern exercise science is the Yi Jin Jing referenced, and even in China it is not practiced by professional athletes.  

 

I would posit an alternative interpretation that as the patriarch of the tradition that became to be known as Zen (aka Chan/Jhana/Dhyana) that his Yi Jin Jing (as well as his Xi Sui Jing) were intended to assist the monks in achieving the state called Zen (aka Chan/Jhana/Dhyana).  This would also simplify the issue of figuring out what a personal trainer was doing teaching marrow washing (as in the Xi Sui Jing), and how marrow washing was critical for physical health in the first place!

Edited January 21, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Shadow_self]

40 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

After Bodhidharma went into Chins to introduce Buddhism, I believe those monks were his first students. I had watch a Chinese documentary from YouTube and it is how it was described.

 

23 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

It was just an exercise which what it is called. It benefits the whole body, the tendons, body joints and muscles. The tile with the term jin, tendon (筋), it doesn't mean it only applies to tendon only. The term Yi Jin Jing is inclusive. It is a matter of interpretation and understanding.

 

Well the Yijinjing is a lot more nuanced than an exercise, and its rather exclusive

 

Its a set of teachings that outline a process of transformation the body goes through when certain principles are applied

[ChiDragon]

17 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Well if your interpretation and understanding is correct and he was indeed functioned as a modern personal trainer would to the monks of the Shaolin Temple then we can safely conclude that his methods were inefficient as nowhere in the world of modern exercise science is the Yi Jin Jing referenced, and even in China it is not practiced by professional athletes.  

 

 Well, that is your opinion. The professional athletes do not practice Yi Jin Jing doesn't mean it is inefficient. Based on your scenario, professional athletes do not practice Taiji, Qigong, Kung Fu or other martial arts, does that mean they are inefficient also?

[Wilhelm]

4 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 Well, that is your opinion. The professional athletes do not practice Yi Jin Jing doesn't mean it is inefficient. Based on your scenario, professional athletes do not practice Taiji, Qigong, Kung Fu or other martial arts, does that mean they are inefficient also?

I would say if the Yi Jin Jing was simply and exercise system then it either the Zen Patriarch didn't understand enough about the human body to create principles that would continue to be useful today (as he very obviously did with the Chan tradition), or that physical fitness and health in the modern sense wasn't the intention of the Yi Jin Jing.

[ChiDragon]

9 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

 

Well the Yijinjing is a lot more nuanced than an exercise, and its rather exclusive

 

Its a set of teachings that outline a process of transformation the body goes through when certain principles are applied

 

Thank you for responding. It is only a matter of speech. Wouldn't you consider any specific body movement is an exercise of some sort.

What do you mean by its rather exclusive in this case? And what are the certain principles are applied?

[Shadow_self]

6 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

 

Thank you for responding. It is only a matter of speech. Wouldn't you consider any specific body movement is an exercise of some sort.

What do you mean by its rather exclusive in this case? And what are the certain principles are applied?

 

Some of the Yi Jing Jing principles are expressed through a body movement type exercise, but from what I can see most of the public ones have it wrong.

 

And moreover, I've also noticed that some private teachers do as well

 

When I say that its exclusive, what I mean is it is referring to something very specific. The principles aren't flexible, they are rather concrete

 

The best thing you could do is watch the video posted by @Wilhelm. It will go into detail in a way that would take a very long time to write  

[ChiDragon]

4 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I would say if the Yi Jin Jing was simply and exercise system then it either the Zen Patriarch didn't understand enough about the human body to create principles that would continue to be useful today (as he very obviously did with the Chan tradition), or that physical fitness and health in the modern sense wasn't the intention of the Yi Jin Jing.

Okay, as I gather your thoughts. You are trying to relate Yi Jin Jing with the Zen philosophy. To my best knowledge, Zen is completely isolated from Yi Jin Jing. Zen is a very high level of Buddhism philosophy. It was performed under deep long meditation secluded in an isolate area, rather than standing up.

[Wilhelm]

6 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Okay, as I gather your thoughts. You are trying to relate Yi Jin Jing with the Zen philosophy. To my best knowledge, Zen is completely isolated from Yi Jin Jing. Zen is a very high level of Buddhism philosophy. It was performed under deep long meditation secluded in an isolate area, rather than standing up.

And yet, they both supposedly came from the same man 🤔

 

Edit: I should say more specifically that my thoughts are relating the Yi Jin Jing to Chan Buddhism, not Zen philosophy - apologies for using the two as complete synonyms until now

Edited January 21, 2023 by Wilhelm

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, dmattwads said:

It was recommended that I turn a question I asked in another post into it's own post, so here goes.

 

Buddhism basically ignores the body in cultivation and focuses on cultivating the mind with the mind.

 

My question is aside from systems like Qigong and Yoga asana being healthy for the body, can they be used to cultivate the mind and if so, how so?

 

Yes IMO,

The body serves as an excellent “object of meditation” as it is deeply connected to the mind, always available, and offers many areas and opportunities for focus.This helps train the mind to remain in the present moment, a critical skill for approaching realization. One focuses the mind on the body at rest (asanas, zhan zhuang), and develops the ability to focus on the continuously moving body (esp. taijiquan) which naturally leads to discovering stillness in movement. This in turn fosters deeper realization through transcending the illusory separation between inner and outer, mind and body, self and other, organism and environment. I can’t say this is effective for everyone but it has great potential for the right practitioner under the right circumstances.

[ChiDragon]

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

And yet, they both supposedly came from the same man 🤔

Well, there are many forms of practices from Buddhism but practiced by different man in different level by one's choice. Zen masters do not require to practice Yi Jin Jing.

[ChiDragon]

22 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

And yet, they both supposedly came from the same man 🤔

 

Edit: I should say more specifically that my thoughts are relating the Yi Jin Jing to Chan Buddhism, not Zen philosophy - apologies for using the two as complete synonyms until now

You are correct, Chan Buddhism and Zen philosophy are the same thing. It is only the English spelling is different which causing lots of confusion to a non-native speaker. The Chinese character for Chan and Zen is 禅

Edited January 21, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Wilhelm]

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

You are correct, Chan Buddhism and Zen philosophy are the same thing. It is only the English spelling is different. The Chinese character for Chan and Zen is 禅

Here I'm differentiating the two as separate traditions, as although both traditions share a literal meaning and a root of Bodhidharma they've obviously evolved to become very different today - while I have known the Yi Jin Jing to be associated with Chan I have not heard the same for Zen.