Mind Body cultivation

[ChiDragon]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

Enough - goodbye.

This is only a friendly discussion. Even though we disagree by not speaking with the same terms, but there is no need to get emotional about it, my friend! Peace!

[refugeindharma]

12 hours ago, freeform said:

There are several factors as to why you hear of people getting enlightened so seemingly easily in the old texts…

 

To add on to this, there is also the case that a lot of monks actually follow the general trend of retreating into the forest, working at their practice, and after "a short while" or whatever terminology they normally use they "did what had to be done, there is no more becoming" (aka realized arhatship)

 

There is no mention of how long that "short while" was for them. Although of course you still have seemingly a lot of the spontaneous awakenings whilst people are listening to the Buddha lecture and so forth

 

When it comes to the Mahayana sutras, things get even wilder haha

[Master Logray]

The hardware/software metaphor is actually not easily used.   Software is not only the programs that we change or update.    Software can be hardware based.  The CPU has lots of codes which are programs in a sense.  So is it hardware or software?   Programs can be changed?   The operating system cannot be changed easily.  It is like the set up or character of a person, that is quite independent from what the mind thinks, and from the effect of the physical body.   

 

[freeform]

12 hours ago, markern said:

Sp do you think this is a wrong approach to practice? That they should learn more from the Taoist approach?

No - I wouldn’t say that. 
 

One should do what works… if it’s worked for their teacher - and that’s what their teacher is showing them - than that’s the correct method  

 

[markern]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

No - I wouldn’t say that. 
 

One should do what works… if it’s worked for their teacher - and that’s what their teacher is showing them - than that’s the correct method  

 

 

But don't Taoists, at least in the lineages with very gentle methods, tend to think forceful methods are wrong and don't take you as far as less contrived methods? So doing something different would be more effective. Even though this may still work in some way. 

[freeform]

26 minutes ago, markern said:

 

But don't Taoists, at least in the lineages with very gentle methods, tend to think forceful methods are wrong and don't take you as far as less contrived methods? So doing something different would be more effective. Even though this may still work in some way. 

I’ve got a slightly unpopular opinion… and that’s that systems or traditions or even methods don’t really matter as much as people think…

 

Yes I personally believe that Daoist methods are superior overall for most people… but then again there are plenty of Daoist assholes!! So I’m certainly not completely right about that!

 

The method itself doesn’t matter…

 

Not if you have a genuinely accomplished teacher.

 

If I had come across a Voodoo priest with the almost saintly qualities of my teacher - and the various miraculous abilities and skills that he uses for benevolent means - I’d be doing Voodoo right now!

 

If you have a Tibetan teacher who is highly attained (or at least has a highly attained teacher of their own) - and they show you methods that don’t agree with other methods - then don’t be silly and let the opportunity of training with them slip by - just because books or people online say something contradictory!

 

I remember many years ago when I was really into psychology, I would read about Milton Erickson and his case studies…

 

They were wild… he’d get his patient to go bury a shoe and her chronic schizophrenia simply stopped - completely healed!

 

Yeah but burying shoes is frowned upon by Freudian psychologists 😂

 

Its different early on of course - or if this stuff is a hobby… then it’s worth exploring (bear in mind in that video the guy said - don’t do this stuff if you haven’t been trained - listen to these warnings!)…

 

Explore and talk to people using the methods and getting results. 
 

Talking to live people is much better than reading or thinking or making your own assumptions about stuff.

 

You can usually get a vibe straight away - even with online training… listen to that vibe… it’s possible to be open and non judgemental while keeping your wits about you and staying skeptical… its a fine line and needs constant adjustment to stay on that fine line.

 

Theres no pure Daoist alchemy (even within lineages)… there’s no pure Vajrayana - our only access to these things (outside of books) is through other people - teachers, students etc… Look at them rather than the mental projection of these traditions and their methods. The people are more important than the methods… they’re a better barometer for the effectiveness of the methods and they’re a better transmitter of the methods (than books for example).

 

Hope that answer doesn’t come across as harsh - this is me trying to be helpful 😅

[Maddie]

22 minutes ago, freeform said:

The method itself doesn’t matter…

 

Not if you have a genuinely accomplished teacher.

 

I agree. When I was in acupuncture school, I'd never before nor since been around such a large gathering of lineages and traditions. It all seemed very impressive at first, until you got to know the people and honestly the vast majority to me seemed mentally unstable. That being the case I didn't care what lineage they claimed, I didn't want to buy what they were selling. It did a lot to turn me off to Qigong and caused me to look to Buddhism.

[freeform]

24 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

It did a lot to turn me off to Qigong and caused me to look to Buddhism.

Did you find the same situation in Buddhism? Or no?

 

I did.
 

Maybe a bit more ‘mature’ as a group generally - but there’s just as many people stuck in self delusion and intellectualism masquerading as spirituality.

[Cobie]

sorry. wrong thread

Edited January 23, 2023 by Cobie

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Maybe a bit more ‘mature’ as a group generally - but there’s just as many people stuck in self delusion and intellectualism masquerading as spirituality.

Did you see this in monasteries as well?

Edited January 23, 2023 by Wilhelm

[freeform]

6 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Did you see this in monasteries as well?

Monasteries IME tended to be even bigger mixed bags… many in a monastery are not really that interested in dharma… they’re there for many other reasons. 
 

There’s less delusion than in westerners, but it’s more like a high school with different cliques 😅

 

There are the geeky ones, the popular, outgoing ones, the troublemakers, the lazy ones, the political types etc etc… and of course there are also the ones who have a deep calling, a real talent, or that cultivator mindset - they’re definitely not the majority though!

 

Different monasteries have different mixtures - but they’re often some cross-section of the local society.

[refugeindharma]

24 minutes ago, freeform said:

Different monasteries have different mixtures - but they’re often some cross-section of the local society.

 

My dumb naiive ass once thought that when I went to go stay at monasteries that all the people there would be great, kind, and awesome people. Finally, a place I can go that will be free from politics and dumb people bickering over stupid stuff!

 

Well, well, well, I now know monasteries are just the same as any organization or place that you'd find out in big bad society, why?

Well because monasteries consists of people and they come with all of the baggage that is associated with being human (and unenlightened) 

 

Monasteries where real cultivation is happening though tend to build up a genuine energy, frequency, or vibe to them that is very rare if not impossible to encounter out and about in society - feels almost magic like tbh

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Did you find the same situation in Buddhism? Or no?

 

Yes and no. I've mostly practiced Buddhism on my own so I have less sample size but I did a few retreats at a local Burmese monastery. There was one older American monk and because of the language he was the one that I spoke to the most. I think he was a secular Buddhist and may have not believed in reincarnation which was interesting to me since he was a Buddhist monk. The main thing he seemed interested in talking about was being a monk and the rules and how great Myanmar was when he was there, which I also thought was interesting considering they have a military dictatorship. He wasn't a very good listener though and would tend to monologue. 

  On the other hand he didn't strike me as off riding his unicorn like a lot of the Qigong practitioners at my Acupuncture school did. 

Edited January 23, 2023 by dmattwads

[dwai]

On 1/21/2023 at 12:30 PM, dmattwads said:

It was recommended that I turn a question I asked in another post into it's own post, so here goes.

 

Buddhism basically ignores the body in cultivation and focuses on cultivating the mind with the mind.

 

My question is aside from systems like Qigong and Yoga asana being healthy for the body, can they be used to cultivate the mind and if so, how so?

Yes, they can. A still body will lead to a still mind. A still mind will lead to realizing the true nature. 

[doc benway]

5 hours ago, freeform said:

I’ve got a slightly unpopular opinion… and that’s that systems or traditions or even methods don’t really matter as much as people think…

💯 

 

5 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Yes I personally believe that Daoist methods are superior overall for most people… but then again there are plenty of Daoist assholes!! So I’m certainly not completely right about that!

Clearly!

Nobody’s perfect…

😉

🤣

 

5 hours ago, freeform said:

The method itself doesn’t matter…

 

Not if you have a genuinely accomplished teacher.

💯

 

5 hours ago, freeform said:

 

If I had come across a Voodoo priest with the almost saintly qualities of my teacher - and the various miraculous abilities and skills that he uses for benevolent means - I’d be doing Voodoo right now!

 

If you have a Tibetan teacher who is highly attained (or at least has a highly attained teacher of their own) - and they show you methods that don’t agree with other methods - then don’t be silly and let the opportunity of training with them slip by - just because books or people online say something contradictory!

💯

 

5 hours ago, freeform said:

Explore and talk to people using the methods and getting results. 
 

Talking to live people is much better than reading or thinking or making your own assumptions about stuff.

💯

Or listening to strangers online!

Including me…

🙃

 

5 hours ago, freeform said:

 

You can usually get a vibe straight away - even with online training… listen to that vibe… it’s possible to be open and non judgemental while keeping your wits about you and staying skeptical… its a fine line and needs constant adjustment to stay on that fine line.

 

Theres no pure Daoist alchemy (even within lineages)… there’s no pure Vajrayana - our only access to these things (outside of books) is through other people - teachers, students etc… Look at them rather than the mental projection of these traditions and their methods. The people are more important than the methods… they’re a better barometer for the effectiveness of the methods and they’re a better transmitter of the methods (than books for example).

💯

 

Great and valuable post!

[awaken]

For beginners without a degree, finding a teacher is the most efficient behavior.

But for a certain level of people, looking for a teacher is the most stupid behavior.

Buddha's progress came from abandoning the teachings of the two teachers.

Lao Tzu never mentioned his teacher.

Lu Zu's teacher was forged by later generations.

There are many divergent paths in the path of practice, and there are many divergent paths mentioned in Buddhist scriptures.

In Zhang Boduan's book, there are also many divergences mentioned.

Hardly any of these masters who found their way mentioned his teacher.

A beginner can find a relatively low-level teacher to learn some introductory methods.

However, if an ambitious beginner wants to practice to a higher level, the classics must be read, otherwise it is easy to be deceived by religious or qigong scammers.

The true way cannot be taught.

Therefore, my teaching method has never been to teach directly, but to allow students to see the existence of Tao from practice.

If the student violates the Dao, I will tell him, and if the student's practice reveals the Dao, I will also tell him.
But I will not give the student a fixed method and let him repeat it constantly. This will only prevent him from finding the true way.

There are many qigong salesmen here, and beginners must be careful about their marketing techniques when reading these articles.

 

對沒有程度的初學者來說，找老師是最有效率的行為。

但是對有一定程度的人來說，找老師是最愚蠢的行為。

佛陀的進步來自於放棄兩位老師的教導。

老子從未提過他的老師。

呂祖的老師是後代偽造的。

修行的道路有很多歧路，在佛經當中提到了非常多的歧路。

在張伯端的書中同樣也提到非常多的歧路。

這些找到路的大師，幾乎沒有一個提到他的老師。

一個初學者可以找比較低階的老師學一些入門的方法。

但是一個有野心的初學者如果想要練到更高的層次，經典就是一定要看的，否則很容易被宗教騙子或者氣功騙子所欺騙。

真正的道路是無法被教導的。

所以我的教學方式從來不是直接教學，而是讓學生自己從實踐當中，看見道的存在。

如果學生違反道了，我會告訴他，如果學生的練習顯現道了，我也會告訴他。
但是我不會給學生一個固定的方法，讓他不斷的重複，這樣只會阻止他找到真正的道。

這裡有很多氣功銷售員，初學者在看這些文章的時候，必須要小心行銷的手法。
 

I have seen too many people practice the right way by themselves, but practice the wrong way after finding a teacher.

The most common situation is that students who want to practice at a high level find a qigong teacher, but after learning qigong methods, they can no longer improve their practice. This is the most common situation.

 

我看過太多人原本自己練的是對的，找了老師之後卻練了錯誤的方法。

最常見的就是想要修行高層次的學生，卻找了氣功老師，而學習了氣功方法之後，修行再也無法進步了，這是最常見的情況。

Edited January 23, 2023 by awaken

[ChiDragon]

4 hours ago, awaken said:

For beginners without a degree, finding a teacher is the most efficient behavior.

 @awaken
It seems no one has a good definition of Qigong(氣功). Since your Chinese and English are very good, I would love to hear the insight from you in both languages. Would you please give us a little introduction in Qigong in a simplest way as possible? Thank you!

Edited January 23, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Maddie]

I still remember the exact moment my disillusionment with Qigong. I'd already spoken to several of the practitioners at the school and they all seemed a bit mentally unstable to me. One day after lunch I had eaten and came back to the school and one of these cheat on groups was practicing in the outside break area and I watch them practicing in a suddenly just looked like a bunch of mentally unstable people waiving their arms around and it kind of killed it for me. I'm not sure why it suddenly seemed that way to me but it did.

Edited January 24, 2023 by dmattwads

[Wilhelm]

8 minutes ago, dmattwads said:

I still remember the exact moment my disillusionment with Qigong. I'd already spoken to several of the practitioners at the school and they all seemed a bit mentally unstable to me. One day after lunch I had eaten and came back to the school and one of these cheat on groups was practicing in the outside break area and I watch them practicing in a suddenly just looked like a bunch of mentally unstable people waiting their arms around and it kind of killed it for me. I'm not sure why it suddenly seemed that way to me but it did.

Yeah I had a very similar moment with what I imagine was another school. Bit broad of a stroke to write off an entire discipline cause one school buggered it up though eh?

 

[Maddie]

13 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Yeah I had a very similar moment with what I imagine was another school. Bit broad of a stroke to write off an entire discipline cause one school buggered it up though eh?

 

 

Oh this wasn't the school this was a bunch of people who went to the school from a bunch of different lineages and I'm not saying it's a fair assessment I'm just saying that's how it affected me at the time LOL

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, dmattwads said:

suddenly just looked like a bunch of mentally unstable people waiting their arms around and it kind of killed it for me

 

Watching a group of dedicated practitioners practice martial qigong like Shiba Luohan Shou (十八羅漢手) would likely leave you feeling a bit differently. That said I know exactly what you mean. Good luck finding what works for you.

 

[Maddie]

10 hours ago, freeform said:

 intellectualism masquerading as spirituality.

 

Actually this was another question I had if the mind can be cultivated through the intellect LOL.

[Maddie]

So I've been paying more attention lately and I think I've noticed that even from doing yoga or Pilates I get some of the same emotional side effects as I do when I meditate or do mantra.

[Maddie]

One other thing I noticed for not just myself but my daughter as well as as an acupuncturist sometimes that also use herbs that enter various channels to cultivate and they also seem to have some of the same emotional side effects as meditation or mantra. Has anyone noticed this?

 

Without wanting to start a new thread I was also wondering if anyone has cultivated through the intellect as in studying texts and what not?

[doc benway]

9 minutes ago, Maddie said:

Without wanting to start a new thread I was also wondering if anyone has cultivated through the intellect as in studying texts and what not?

 

Yes, there was a time when I did quite a bit of reading and studying in a variety of traditions. Now it’s mainly practice and living life for me. I do still read teachings given by trusted masters in my tradition. No question our intellect is a very powerful tool. On the other hand it tends to think it is the end all and be all and that is an error in experiential practices.