On the nature and utility of 'goal posts' in meditative and energetic practice

[Wilhelm]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

So you did Shambhavi? Do you still practice it?

Yes that was the foundational practice accompanied by the inner engineering theory.  I practiced it as well as some of their Hatha and Kriyas for a few years and then when starting Nei Gong I juggled both for a while before deciding to stick to Nei Gong simply because I had better access to the teacher.

[dwai]

3 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Yes that was the foundational practice accompanied by the inner engineering theory.  I practiced it as well as some of their Hatha and Kriyas for a few years and then when starting Nei Gong I juggled both for a while before deciding to stick to Nei Gong simply because I had better access to the teacher.

You should try shambhavi again - you might be surprised with the effect. 

[Wilhelm]

Just now, dwai said:

You should try shambhavi again - you might be surprised with the effect. 

Thanks!  I understand I stopped well before its full effect blossomed, but to be honest I'm hesitant to simply because I'm really actively working on a separate system of energetics and can't say for myself where the potential conflicts are (especially as so little of the mechanics of Shambhavi were talked about beyond the physical dimension).

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Creation said:

Would you let me know what you think of this, and what it has to do, if anything, with real Dharma as you understand it?

I’m absolutely not the person to ask about real Dharma 😅 

 

For me the Daoist alchemical model is how I understand my own path… Aspects of Dharma inform that to some extent.

 

From this perspective Roger’s (the guy who wrote this article) perceptual shift has been in the Shen… the manifest aspect of consciousness… what my teacher would call Mind (not Xin - heart-mind not Yuan Shen - original spirit)…

 

It sounds a bit like one of the shifts that happen with upper Dantien work. But I’d have to ask questions to ascertain. 

 

Nothing he’s said (I also watched a video) suggests that he’s touched the Divine… (though I suspect he’d say there’s no soul there’s no spirit). So it’s all just Mind instead… however expanded that may be, if there’s no divine spark, no ‘pre-heaven’ aspect that radiates from within - then you technically couldn’t say that he’s even started the ‘spiritual path’ yet… (let alone gotten fully enlightened).

 

I find his sort of talk really difficult to digest. To me it’s very disembodied and devoid of Spirit - so it makes me feel kinda queasy 😅

 

———

 

And just as an aside… playing Devils Advocate…

 

touching the Divine is only the start of the spiritual path! There’s a lot that can go wrong indeed!
 

As evidenced by ‘Buddha Boy’. 

From what I’ve read of peoples experiences (seeing the 5 coloured lights emanating from him… spontaneous fires starting near him etc) - he gained genuine access to Spirit… but this is when karma starts to unravel - this is when the path really begins… having no teacher means he’s just playing out the unwholesome karmic unraveling at an accelerated rate.
 

One of the big pitfalls - and sadly, despite being rather gifted - he’s fallen right into that trap.

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

As evidenced by ‘Buddha Boy’. 

 

Who is this character? 

[Creation]

20 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

From this perspective Roger’s (the guy who wrote this article) perceptual shift has been in the Shen… the manifest aspect of consciousness… what my teacher would call Mind (not Xin - heart-mind not Yuan Shen - original spirit)…

 

It sounds a bit like one of the shifts that happen with upper Dantien work. But I’d have to ask questions to ascertain. 

 

Nothing he’s said (I also watched a video) suggests that he’s touched the Divine… (though I suspect he’d say there’s no soul there’s no spirit). So it’s all just Mind instead… however expanded that may be, if there’s no divine spark, no ‘pre-heaven’ aspect that radiates from within - then you technically couldn’t say that he’s even started the ‘spiritual path’ yet… (let alone gotten fully enlightened).

A very fair assessment.  I've been talking to someone who will be studying full time at Damo's Bali school who got some of these shifts from these types of practices, and he said something similar, that he never touched on anything like what Damo calls soul or spirit. 

 

But for the record, this is what Ingram and Frank Yang are claiming to attain, and calling arhatship.  (At the very least, in Yang's case, it's not just a bipolar delusion IMO). Just for your reference. 

 

These kinds of shifts, as far as I can tell, are also emphasized about in schools of Buddhism that emphasize sudden awakening - certain types of Chan/Zen, Mahamudra, and Dzogchen.  Though they also emphasize an initial shift into something totally beyond mind, the pure consciousness that knows all experience, in a way that Ingram's material doesn't.  I suspect this is at least an aspect of soul or spirit.  Among these, only Dzogchen has a track record of building on these realizations to attain rainbow body though. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Creation

[searcher7977]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

You should try shambhavi again - you might be surprised with the effect. 

 

Could you speak more about your experiences with the Isha's Shambhavi Mahamudra Kriya? I also used to do this kriya and several other of Isha's sadhanas, but I had to travel several hours to take the classes, so I was never able to join the Satsangs nearby. 

Shoonya is also a very interesting meditation I wish I could have done. Sadhguru references it as similar to what Shakyamuni Buddha taught students privately (as opposed to publicly given Vipassana). 

 

Unfortunately I had to stop for health reasons, and also because I could no longer do any form of Nadi Shuddhi even with nasal sprays. Isha's main practices still require a certain level of vitality that I have been struggling to regain...

[freeform]

12 minutes ago, Creation said:

At the very least, in Yang's case, it's not just a bipolar delusion IMO

I didn’t mean to suggest that he’s delusional as a result of bipolar. From a video I saw - he clearly does a lot of meditative practice!

But bipolar can fuel these experiences during a manic stage - so perceptual shifts can take on much more significance and become a lot more intense experientially.

 

Bipolar is not generally rooted in delusion like other mental health issues can be.

[freeform]

3 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

The usual, unfortunately

 

Obtain power -> start cult -> do bad things

@dwai - Buddha Boy 👆🏻 

 

(sounds like a Gen Z rapper )

[dwai]

Just now, freeform said:

@dwai - Buddha Boy 👆🏻 

 

(sounds like a Gen Z rapper )

I saw that after I asked my question. Sad indeed. I remember when people started to make a big deal about this guy (when he was a kid). Most likely, he was a janma Siddha (born with siddhis attained in a previous lifetime that manifested at a certain age in this life). His karmic inclination for meditation was very strong, so he fell into it naturally. But other karmic residues have been activated, and, as you pointed out, that is playing out. 

[Wilhelm]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

@Wilhelm

No, not closed eyes. Eyes open in a dark room. Literally. When you  see it, it will knock your socks off. When i got it i could only go whoa! Nothing was metaphorical about that. 20 years later i still chuckle at the memory.;)

Thanks for the clarification, but the point I was making was that someone could experience a dim light behind their eyes and assume this is the 'white light' talked about in the texts.  Likewise with the brilliant light that appears (eyes closed or open).  If one's only source is their own experience, what's to stop alternative interpretations from proliferating?

Quote

They need to move beyond the  seminar-sellers, neidan entrepreneurs, chain bookstore-available texts, and internet discussions to the original texts, the kind i translate. Seriously, they just have to read the texts. The fetus is described there in detail very specifically. And of course without  learning from the texts there is no chance of incepting the fetus. So the point is moot.  The irony, eh.

I appreciate that you're encouraging individual pursuit of the classical texts, and I'd say the 'gate' being kept here is that someone reading them will come to the same conclusions as you have.  How often on this forum has that been the case?  I know this is the approach encouraged by Awaken as well.  Do the both of you agree on which texts should be read, and did you both interpret them the same way?

 

I had asked specifically why these would be delusional as from my understanding delusion can only verifiably be determined through experience as opposed to inference, so I was wondering if you had had any experience with telepathy or the validity of other testing methods which allowed you to determine them as delusional.

 

Thank you again for continuing the dialogue _/ \_ as goofy as it is - Daobums is as close to an active Sangha as I have at the moment, and I am grateful to be speaking with you and many others who have dedicated their lives to the arts that I love.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Piyadasi]

49 minutes ago, freeform said:

And just as an aside… playing Devils Advocate…

 

touching the Divine is only the start of the spiritual path! There’s a lot that can go wrong indeed!
 

As evidenced by ‘Buddha Boy’. 

From what I’ve read of peoples experiences (seeing the 5 coloured lights emanating from him… spontaneous fires starting near him etc) - he gained genuine access to Spirit… but this is when karma starts to unravel - this is when the path really begins… having no teacher means he’s just playing out the unwholesome karmic unraveling at an accelerated rate.
 

One of the big pitfalls - and sadly, despite being rather gifted - he’s fallen right into that trap.

Great point about him having no teacher! What does it mean when you say karma starts to unravel when Spirit is touched? Isn't that kind of what life on this plane is already? Is it a 'speeding up' (what does that even mean) or is there a different mechanic there?

[Shadow_self]

13 hours ago, refugeindharma said:

More recent is Frank Yang, and I believe Kenneth Folk may have been in this camp too altho I'm not certain about this, he is a contemporary teacher alongside Daniel Ingram and that generation. The late Culadasa never claimed Arhatship I believe, however he did seem to allude to it in some of his prior lectures or Q&A's, this evidently however was clearly not the case after his scandals came out into the public

 

Ingram and Folk both practiced under the Mahayasi Sayadaw lineage from Burma, which came up with the idea of the 16 stages of insight (or "The Progress of Insight"), which apparently maps out the progress and stages that leads one to Arhatship or "4th path" as they term it. The Mahasi lineage focuses heavily on vipassana or noting practice and do not place great emphasis on jhanas

 

18 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Long story short I think he's a practitioner with some skill and accomplishment (based on his practice logs - he pretty clearly has some skill in concentration) but as he goes by his own interpretations of both his teacher's method as well as the path I have no idea 'where' he really is.  Could go into detail with his own descriptions of the experience.

 

He's also inspired thousands to take meditation very seriously, though I don't know what the net benefit has been for even those who've completed his method (i.e. Frank Yang - not to single out this fellow from thousands but he's well known, and also appeared on guru viking).  So I'm sympathetic towards him because its amazing how many people have taken meditation seriously because of his work and I believe he's being honest in what he believes, and I also understand the criticisms of how his approach has affected Theravadan Buddhism in the West.  'Big Buddhism' took notice of him enough to put out an article basically writing off him and his approach, as well.

 

https://www.youtube.com/@frankyang/videos

 

http://kennethfolkdharma.com/2017/07/1610/

 

These two? Is this some kind of joke? 

 

The more I listen to these types, the more I realize that this is why I rarely if ever talk about Buddhism (Recall our chat @Wilhelm?)

 

The type of folks speaking in this way aren't highly accomplished practitioners, they are deluded.

 

My gut instinct is that the young man in the YouTube videos is clearly medicated to a high degree also

Edited January 24, 2023 by Shadow_self

[Wilhelm]

4 hours ago, awaken said:

It's not that easy to be successful.

Misguided people far outnumber successful people.

You won't hurt me.

Usually I block people just because they are stubborn and hopeless.

You may have read many scriptures, but they are of no help to your practice. I can understand your feelings, because there are many such people.

I was one of those people myself.

If you want to succeed, you must let go of fixed methods.

There is no fixed path to success.

When you focus your consciousness on a place that you think is safe every time you practice, you are making the biggest mistake.

Do nothing, do not live, is the greatest principle

Awaken when I said I believe many things are lost in translation what I meant was that I believe you have very noble intentions as a practitioner and a teacher but that maybe the google translate is misrepresenting the intent of your messages, leading to disagreements and confusion where there ought to be none.  I am fairly sure google translate has done a poor job of conveying my own messages, as I'm not sure exactly what we're in disagreement about here .  Here's some of the confusion I am having:

You are recommending a thorough study of the fundamental classics

But you have said many of the classics that were read here were false, and even if the correct ones were read they would most likely be misinterpreted (so instead of self-study why don't you just reccomend that beginners talk directly to you?)

 

You are saying that I am of a low level and what I am doing is wrong

But you don't know who I am or what I'm doing

 

You say there is no fixed method

But what is sitting in the grass and allowing the energy to move you if not a fixed method?

 

You say practicing QI will lead nowhere and we must practice Shen

Without wondering if we're practicing Qi as a foundation to practice Shen

 

To an inferior person such as myself, your words sound the same as a famous prophet in the West: "I am Awaken.  I am the way, and the truth, and the life, and none may get to the Dao except through my methods." So I think this impression (which I'm sure is mistaken) has caused some unnecessary disagreements here.

 

That said, you clearly have a true dedication to the art - I understand you regularly practice 4 hours a day, and that is truly admirable.

Even under the mislead guidance of the fake qigong masters (which - as far as google translate has allowed - I am assuming is a term you use to refer to any public teacher of the Daoist arts), I can only manage between 3 and 4 hours a day at the moment - but I am working to develop more discipline.  You have studied the classics and believe to have attained full comprehension which is remarkeable to me because after a decade of study I know for a fact that the majority of their message eludes me.  You spend day after day here trying to assist people in their development without asking anything in return and so I am impressed both with your kindness and dedication.

Quote

you are looking for fish in the tree

If your understanding of this idiom is the same as is found here, then thank you very much _/\_ I enjoyed its relevance to our discussion.  Indeed, much of my path thus far seems to have been looking for a fish in a tree   

Edited January 24, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, awaken said:

Usually I block people just because they are stubborn and hopeless.

 

I think someone blocking EVERYONE who disagrees with them is a sign that they are rather stubborn and hopeless, but hey that's just my opinion

 

4 hours ago, awaken said:

I'm not that great, I can't help the whole western world by myself.

 

A recipe for that crow liver and rabbit marrow stew would be a great start  

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

that someone could experience a dim light behind their eyes and assume this is the 'white light' talked about in the texts. 

it is. if a person first sees a dim light it means his qi is not mature yet but he is on the right track.

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

If one's only source is their own experience, what's to stop alternative interpretations from proliferating?

the literal meaning of the words. light is light. either it is there  [dim or brilliant]  OR it is not. But light  does not mean a chair or an apple or a wisdom or awareness and what not. If someone 'alternatively interprets' a simple word like light then he is not a reasonable person.

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

I appreciate that you're encouraging individual pursuit of the classical texts the 'gate' being kept here is that someone reading them will come to the same conclusions as you have.  How often on this forum has that been the case?

i think i understand what you want to say.  You think that if everybody agrees on a neidan method then probably  it is a valid method and vice-versa . Because if everyone agrees on grass being green then its a fact right? But you see 'our arts' are the absolute opposite of  groupthink. If everyone agrees on something then it is a falsity.  Consensus is a big bright red flag. Our arts are very, very exclusive. If I think like everyone does - then I will end up like everyone does. Hence the saying 'amateurs are as numerous as the hair on a cowhide, masters are as few as horns on the cow's head'.

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

I know this is the approach encouraged by Awaken as well.  Do the both of you agree on which texts should be read, and did you both interpret them the same way?

well maybe halfway.  I respect her for her dedication and kindness and whimsy but as to her training process : she is correct on spontaneous movement, use of sleep, generating lights. On the rest of the process we differ. That said she is probably one of the mere two or three  serious practicers here. On  texts  we disagree as well.

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

I had asked specifically why these would be delusional as from my understanding delusion can only verifiably be determined through experience as opposed to inference, so I was wondering if you had had any experience with telepathy or the validity of other testing methods which allowed you to determine them as delusional.

Hmm this one is a head-scratcher because you apparently believe that telepathy exists and i believe it does not. And you apparently believe that a delusion must be experienced to be determined. While i on the other hand need only a glance at the man or a couple of words from him to infer that he is not reasonable. So finding a common ground for  this discussion is problematic - but welcome on my side.

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

The type of folks speaking in this way aren't highly accomplished practitioners, they are deluded.

there you go!

[markern]

2 hours ago, freeform said:

Bipolar is not generally rooted in delusion like other mental health issues can be.

 

What do you mean by this?

[Wilhelm]

33 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

it is. if a person first sees a dim light it means his qi is not mature yet but he is on the right track.

First of all thank you for your continued engagement _/\_ 

Quote

the literal meaning of the words. light is light. either it is there  [dim or brilliant]  OR it is not. But light  does not mean a chair or an apple or a wisdom or awareness and what not. If someone 'alternatively interprets' a simple word like light then he is not a reasonable person.

Very true.  But the light is not always called 'the light' in the classics, is it?  So how much more reason is needed to discern the meaning of a grain of millet, an immortal fetus, a golden embryo and so on.

Quote

i think i understand what you want to say.  You think that if everybody agrees on a neidan method then probably  it is a valid method and vice-versa . Because if everyone agrees on grass being green then its a fact right? But you see 'our arts' are the absolute opposite of  groupthink. If everyone agrees on something then it is a falsity.  Consensus is a big bright red flag. Our arts are very, very exclusive. If I think like everyone does - then I will end up like everyone does. Hence the saying 'amateurs are as numerous as the hair on a cowhide, masters are as few as horns on the cow's head'.

Not so.  The implication in your previous message was that the path forward was interpretation of the classical texts in line with your own:

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They need to move beyond the  seminar-sellers, neidan entrepreneurs, chain bookstore-available texts, and internet discussions to the original texts, the kind i translate. Seriously, they just have to read the texts. The fetus is described there in detail very specifically. And of course without  learning from the texts there is no chance of incepting the fetus. So the point is moot.  The irony, eh.

So if you're of the opinion that consensus is not needed in these arts - why is it necessary to follow the specific process you've outlined in order to progress?  Or was your implication that it's because of the lack of consensus that so many amateurs exist?

Quote

 

Quote

Hmm this one is a head-scratcher because you apparently believe that telepathy exists and i believe it does not. And you apparently believe that a delusion must be experienced to be determined. While i on the other hand need only a glance at the man or a couple of words from him to infer that he is not reasonable. So finding a common ground for  this discussion is problematic - but welcome on my side.

Not so.  I would say that telepathy falls outside of my own experience.  Similarly to the brilliant white light experienced with eyes open that you mentioned.  I find no utility in either believing or disbelieving concepts outside of my experience, and I consider it part of my duty as a cultivator to be honest with myself about what I know and what I believe.

 

The point I was making is that I /believe/ it is unreasonable to disbelieve something because it falls outside of one's own experience.  In arts where strange phenomena like blinding white lights occur shouldn't a higher bar be set for differentiating the true and the false?

Edited January 24, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Shadow_self]

7 hours ago, freeform said:

The problem imo is when it comes to people like Frank Yang - who has bipolar disorder - but is encouraged to believe that during his manic episodes he’s experiencing enlightenment and during his depressive episodes it’s just a ‘dark night of the soul’.

 

I didnt know what it was but within about 12 seconds of listening to him it was very clear something was very, very wrong

 

He's clearly ill and medicated. You can see it in his eyes and mannerisms

 

Disappointing that people are entertaining this tbh, rather sad

[Cobie]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… you apparently believe that telepathy exists and i believe it does not. …

 

“i believe it does not”. I second that.   

 

11 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… if a teacher telepathically knows what is going on in the mind/body of his student then they both are deluding themselves.   Same  for the mutual body fluids tasting. …

 

I agree. 
 

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Cobie

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, Creation said:

A very fair assessment.  I've been talking to someone who will be studying full time at Damo's Bali school who got some of these shifts from these types of practices, and he said something similar, that he never touched on anything like what Damo calls soul or spirit. 

 

But for the record, this is what Ingram and Frank Yang are claiming to attain, and calling arhatship.  (At the very least, in Yang's case, it's not just a bipolar delusion IMO). Just for your reference. 

 

 

I don't mean this disrespectfully to you @Creation but the amount of utter delusion and whatnot he is talking in that video, points to an extremely sick young man.

 

And psychopathology is one thing I do have a bit of knowledge of

 

I dont know what kind of "attainment" people think this individual has, but all I see is an incredibly sick person that a very sick society seeks to reframe their experiences through and reinforce his own distortions. 

 

Rather sad

 

Meditative practice isn't always the right thing for people, and definitely not for someone who's that ill.

[freeform]

32 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

He's clearly ill and medicated. You can see it in his eyes and mannerisms

I suspect that he’s possibly playing up for the camera a little.

 

He’s talked about taking various psychedelics…

 

Practices that seek to create mind bending phenomena + drugs + bipolar… it’s just not a great mix.

 

But I’ve only heard part of an interview and some of that video above when Anshino posted it some time back.
 

So although I can be pretty certain that he’s not enlightened, I can’t say much else though.

 

1 hour ago, markern said:

 

What do you mean by this?

 

I don’t mean to suggest that I know much about mental illness at all…

 

I’ve just had experience of caring for some people with bipolar. It’s more of an internal energy mismanagement from my experience… although manic episodes can bring about delusional states - it’s not delusional states that bring about manic episodes… that’s what I mean by ‘not rooted in’.

 

Bipolar people can be quite competent at life and will often appear to be exceptional at something or other during a manic period… 

[Creation]

40 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

I don't mean this disrespectfully to you @Creation but the amount of utter delusion and whatnot he is talking in that video, points to an extremely sick young man.

All I'm saying is that he self reports to have the same permanent perceptual shift as the fellow in the article I posted, and the same as Daniel Ingram, and I see no reason to doubt this particular claim.  I didn't make any other claim about him, about his character, if he is an "arhat" (lol), if anyone should like him, listen to him, respect him, etc.  We all know you can have various perceptual shifts and still have all sorts of issues, so...

Edited January 24, 2023 by Creation

[Shadow_self]

10 minutes ago, freeform said:

I suspect that he’s possibly playing up for the camera a little.

 

He’s talked about taking various psychedelics…

 

Practices that seek to create mind bending phenomena + drugs + bipolar… it’s just not a great mix.

 

But I’ve only heard part of an interview and some of that video above when Anshino posted it some time back.
 

So although I can be pretty certain that he’s not enlightened, I can’t say much else though.

 

All the things he is speaking about, I have heard people on psychedelics claim before. It is coincidence many of them were suffering from rather serious mental illnesses also

It is a complete and utter recipe for disaster. He thinks he's been through all the jhanas, has an awakened kundalini.

 

Take 15 minutes to listen to that video I've posted when you have some spare time, I am very sure you'll have everything you need to make a fair assessment.

 

Im really just lost for words that someone that unwell is being given all that reinforcement that something "good" is happening here

 

Second time this week I've seen something here thats genuinely upset me.