On the nature and utility of 'goal posts' in meditative and energetic practice

[awaken]

17 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

This would depend on your definition for Samadhi.

Are you an Arhat?

 

Of course not my definition, but the classic definition, my definition is bullshit, it doesn't matter at all.

If you want to judge whether I am an Arhat or not, you have to practice to become an Arhat first.

Don't get caught in the death loop anymore, practice quickly.

 

當然不是我的定義，而是經典的定義，我的定義就是狗屁，一點都不重要。

你想要判斷我是不是阿羅漢，你得要自己先練到阿羅漢。

你別再陷入死亡迴圈了，快練吧。

 

Arhatship is the fourth stage.
You have to practice at least to the first stage, right?
The first stage is the ability to see light.
 The purity of the Dharma eye.

 

阿羅漢是第四個階段。
你起碼要練到第一階段吧
第一個階段就是能看見光。
法眼淨。
 

Why is no one asking me how to practice?

I have talked so much about how to practice, how far you can reach, why no one wants to practice?
Why do you still insist on practicing lower abdominal breathing?
Who was brainwashed by a fake master to become like this?

 

為什麼都沒人問我要怎麼練呢？

我講了這麼多怎麼練，你能達到什麼程度，為什麼都沒人要練？
為什麼你們還是堅持要練下腹部的呼吸？
到底是被哪個假大師洗腦洗到變成這樣？

 

There are a bunch of people who get duped by false masters who teach lower belly breathing, but still a bunch of people who insist on practicing lower belly breathing.

 

一堆人被教下腹部呼吸的假大師欺騙，但是還是一堆人堅持要練下腹部呼吸。

 

On another topic someone mentioned being deceived by false masters.
It is because there are too many people passing on wrong cultivation methods that these false masters have room to operate.

 

另外一個主題有人提到被假大師所欺騙。
就是因為有太多人傳遞錯誤的修煉方法，這些假大師才有運作的空間。
 

Every wrong direction is encouraging the generation of false masters.

 

每一個錯誤的方向，都在助長假大師的產生。

Edited January 26, 2023 by awaken

[Wilhelm]

31 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

Of course not my definition, but the classic definition, my definition is bullshit, it doesn't matter at all.

If you want to judge whether I am an Arhat or not, you have to practice to become an Arhat first.

Don't get caught in the death loop anymore, practice quickly.

The main discussion in this thread has been that there is many interpretations of the 'classic definition' of Samadhi, as well as Arhatship.  So I believe it is extremely relevant to know what you interpret the 'classic definition' to mean.  I appreciate that you claim authority on this subject, but we have talked about others who have claimed authority (such as Trungpa) so it would help to have some way to differentiate your claims from their claims.

 

Quote

Why is no one asking me how to practice?

I have talked so much about how to practice, how far you can reach, why no one wants to practice?
Why do you still insist on practicing lower abdominal breathing?
Who was brainwashed by a fake master to become like this?

 

There are a bunch of people who get duped by false masters who teach lower belly breathing, but still a bunch of people who insist on practicing lower belly breathing.

I have read your thread (as I'm sure many others have) called 'The reason why a person who only has qi in his lower abdomen can't understand the WuZenPian' and it seems you are misunderstanding what myself and many others are practicing.  Although breathing into the lower abdomen is in a sense a part of the practice, there are many other parts, and you haven't written anything to show that lower belly breathing is always incorrect (the alternatives seem to be shallow chest breathing or having no awareness or regulation of the breath) - so I for one haven't seen any reason from your words to change what I'm doing.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Wilhelm

[freeform]

4 hours ago, Barnaby said:

 

Let's loose the broad brush, guys... 

 

What do you know about the motivations of millions of ground-level practitioners?

Sorry but I think you absolutely misunderstood my intention.
 

I never said that Christians are political. Or that they’re bad or not valid.

I said Christianity is more often political than spiritual.

 

That’s very different.

 

I try to be reasonably precise with what I say - Let’s loose the broad brush indeed. 

I actually believe that Christianity as a religion - and prayer as a form of spiritual cultivation are both very much as valid as Asian ones.

 

As an institution however - it has, over the centuries, done exactly what you mentioned is ‘evil’ - which is manipulate peoples innate spiritual calling for power and control.

Edited January 26, 2023 by freeform

[awaken]

16 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

The main discussion in this thread has been that there is many interpretations of the 'classic definition' of Samadhi, as well as Arhatship.  So I believe it is extremely relevant to know what you interpret the 'classic definition' to mean.  I appreciate that you claim authority on this subject, but we have talked about others who have claimed authority (such as Trungpa) so it would help to have some way to differentiate your claims from their claims.

 

I have read your thread (as I'm sure many others have) called 'The reason why a person who only has qi in his lower abdomen can't understand the WuZenPian' and it seems you are misunderstanding what myself and many others are practicing.  Although breathing into the lower abdomen is in a sense a part of the practice, there are many other parts, and you haven't written anything to show that lower belly breathing is always incorrect (the alternatives seem to be shallow chest breathing or having no awareness or regulation of the breath) - so I for one haven't seen any reason from your words to change what I'm doing.

 

I didn't claim authority, you say that because you don't read the Agama Sutra.

If you have read the Agama Sutra, you will not think that I claim authority.

You want to know what an arhat is, but you don't read the Agama Sutra, which is very absurd.

I wrote a lot of things against belly breathing, I don't know why you didn't see it at all, I think it's because you are too poor to understand.

Or maybe your general direction has gone horribly wrong because you've been chasing specific methods.

I've said many times that when you're chasing specific methods, you're doing it wrong.

 

我沒有宣稱權威，你會這樣講，是因為你不看阿含經。

你如果看了阿含經，你就不會認為我宣稱權威。

你想要了解什麼是阿羅漢，但是你卻不去讀阿含經，這樣是非常荒謬的。

我寫了很多反對小腹呼吸的東西，我不知道你為什麼完全沒看到，我會認為是你程度太差看不懂。

又或者你的大方向產生了嚴重的錯誤，因為你一直在追逐具體的方法。

我說過很多次，當你追逐具體的方法，你就錯了。

 

 

(the alternatives seem to be shallow chest breathing or having no awareness or regulation of the breath)

 

－－－>>> Of course not, it's so wrong

 

當然不是，錯得離譜

 

When I say I'm against belly breathing, you're thinking what kind of breathing to use.
I'm going to tell you that when you're thinking about breathing, you're doing it wrong.
Is your focus only on breathing?
Do you have nowhere else to put it but to breathe?
Don't you find that your attention is so narrow that you can only notice the breath?
Do you think human beings can only focus on breathing?
The point is not the position of the breath, but the use of your attention.

 

當我說我反對小腹呼吸，你就在想那要用什麼呼吸。
我要告訴你，當你在想著呼吸，你就錯了。
難道你的注意力只能放在呼吸嗎？
除了呼吸以外，你沒有別的地方可以放嗎？
你難道沒有發現你的注意力是如此的狹隘，以至於你只能注意到呼吸？
你覺得人類的注意力只能放在呼吸而已嗎？
重點不是呼吸的位置，而是你的注意力的使用。

 

Just because you don’t read Buddhist scriptures, you don’t know that Buddha doesn’t teach breathing, but Buddha teaches the use of attention.

Please check the Buddhist scriptures about the influence of "seeking and waiting" on the four meditations.

You have to look up the Buddhist scriptures yourself to know that what I am telling you is not the authority I claim to be. You can't be lazy and not read Buddhist scriptures, put yourself in a state of complete ignorance, and then go around listening to other people's nonsense.

 

你就是因為不看佛經，你才不知道佛陀不教呼吸，佛陀教注意力的使用。

請你去查詢一下佛經關於「尋找和等候」對於四禪定的影響。

你要自己去查佛經，才能知道我跟你說的不是我自稱的權威。你不能懶惰不去看佛經，讓自己處在一種完全無知的狀態下，然後到處聽別人胡說八道。

Edited January 26, 2023 by awaken

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, awaken said:

I've said many times

Yes you speak - but you never listen.

Take time to listen and you’ll find that the world is not as black and white as you imagine.

You may discover that people agree with you far more than you realise…

 

And if you’re able to listen, many more people will be interested when you do speak.

[Wilhelm]

12 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

I didn't claim authority, you say that because you don't read the Agama Sutra.

If you have read the Agama Sutra, you will not think that I claim authority.

You want to know what an arhat is, but you don't read the Agama Sutra, which is very absurd.

Ok thanks, I will.  Do you claim to be an Arhat as defined in the Agama Sutra?

Quote

I wrote a lot of things against belly breathing, I don't know why you didn't see it at all, I think it's because you are too poor to understand.

Or maybe your general direction has gone horribly wrong because you've been chasing specific methods.

I've said many times that when you're chasing specific methods, you're doing it wrong.

I've read you saying not to chase specific methods.  Is sitting in the grass and allowing the energy to move you not a specific method?  Indeed I might be too poor to understand.

Quote

Is your focus only on breathing?

No, of course not

Quote

Don't you find that your attention is so narrow that you can only notice the breath?

No, of course not.

Quote

Do you think human beings can only focus on breathing?

A silly question.

Quote

The point is not the position of the breath, but the use of your attention.

We agree!  That wasn't hard.  Why didn't you ask more about what people are doing before making assumptions?

 

How would you like it if I said 

 

"Oh, that's Awaken.  She just sits in the grass and lets the energy move her."

 

How limiting a statement would that be?  Of course that's not indicative of what you do, even if maybe it forms a part of what you do.  This is the confusion I'm having when you assume people only practice lower belly breathing.

 

Quote

Just because you don’t read Buddhist scriptures, you don’t know that Buddha doesn’t teach breathing, but Buddha teaches the use of attention.

Please check the Buddhist scriptures about the influence of "seeking and waiting" on the four meditations.

You have to look up the Buddhist scriptures yourself to know that what I am telling you is not the authority I claim to be. You can't be lazy and not read Buddhist scriptures, put yourself in a state of complete ignorance, and then go around listening to other people's nonsense.

Ok thanks, I will.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Wilhelm

[liminal_luke]

40 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

Why is no one asking me how to practice?

 

 

I think it's because you regularly tell people that they are "low level."  Whether or not your assessment is correct is besides the point.  People want to hear supportive, encouraging words from a prospective teacher.

[Wilhelm]

2 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Whether or not your assessment is correct is besides the point.  

I honestly wouldn't mind the insults if the assessment was correct.  So far I've been told incorrect things about myself and told they were bad.  Well if that's not what I'm doing then I've got nothing to feel bad about - so no reason to listen to this person!

[awaken]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I think it's because you regularly tell people that they are "low level."  Whether or not your assessment is correct is besides the point.  People want to hear supportive, encouraging words from a prospective teacher.

 

You are right, I expect you to learn and help me teach, I often feel that I am not a good teacher.

 

I may be stronger in practice, but teaching is less encouraging.

So at QQ, one of my students is now teaching beginners.

And he did teach better than me.

 

你說得對，我期待你學會，幫我教人，我經常覺得我不是一個好老師。

我可能實修比較強一些，但是教學是比較不會鼓勵人。

所以在ＱＱ那裡，目前就讓我的一個學生來教初學者。

而他確實教得比我好。

[awaken]

I didn't claim to be an Arhat, so don't dig a pit for me to jump into.

I didn't ask to sit on the grass, I said that the aura in the natural environment is stronger and it is easier to practice.

You should read my article carefully, I never said "sit on the grass and practice"

You asked me to ask, so I asked, how do you usually practice?

 

我沒有自稱我是阿羅漢，你別挖坑給我跳。

我沒有要求坐在草地上，我是說在大自然的環境氣場比較強，比較好練。

你應該仔細看一下我的文章，我從未說過「坐在草地上練」

你要我問，我就問了，你平常怎麼練的？

[Barnaby]

18 minutes ago, freeform said:

I said Christianity is more often political than spiritual.

 

Yeah, but that's the thing.

 

"Christianity" could be used to refer to different things. The body of spiritual beliefs and practices. The congregation of practitioners. The different institutional frameworks that have come into existence. All three. Or none of the above. 

 

It's a catch-all that obscures a multiplicity of distinct realities, like saying Buddhism or Islam.

 

But I don't think there's any point in going much further, because we're derailing the thread, and I think we probably agree about all this anyway  

[liminal_luke]

2 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

You are right, I expect you to learn and help me teach, I often feel that I am not a good teacher.

 

I may be stronger in practice, but teaching is less encouraging.

So at QQ, one of my students is now teaching beginners.

And he did teach better than me.

 

你說得對，我期待你學會，幫我教人，我經常覺得我不是一個好老師。

我可能實修比較強一些，但是教學是比較不會鼓勵人。

所以在ＱＱ那裡，目前就讓我的一個學生來教初學者。

而他確實教得比我好。

 

For what it's worth, I've long suspected that you know what you are talking about and have something very valuable to teach.  I don't sign up myself because I don't fit your requirements.  I'm still very much interested in practicing for good health and I'm not willing to drop some of the other things I do.  It might be true that you are better suited to practice than teaching but that's not a bad thing!  Even if you only teach one true student (and I suspect you've taught many) I believe your efforts are worthwhile.

 

Just my perspective.

[dwai]

8 minutes ago, awaken said:

You are right, I expect you to learn and help me teach, I often feel that I am not a good teacher.

 

To be a good teacher, you have to become a good listener. To be a good listener, you must learn to be silent and attentive. Otherwise, you are simply talking down on others and trying to foist your ideas onto others, irrespective of whether they want to "buy what you're selling." 

 

 

[Sahaja]

It’s interesting how there is also a history of “moving the goal posts” in the traditions themselves. Makes me chuckle at seeing a very human, fallible hand involved in this evolution and realize the importance of using the sweetness of humility to balance the bitterness of my certitudes. 

[awaken]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

For what it's worth, I've long suspected that you know what you are talking about and have something very valuable to teach.  I don't sign up myself because I don't fit your requirements.  I'm still very much interested in practicing for good health and I'm not willing to drop some of the other things I do.  It might be true that you are better suited to practice than teaching but that's not a bad thing!  Even if you only teach one true student (and I suspect you've taught many) I believe your efforts are worthwhile.

 

Just my perspective.

 

 

You made the same mistake as another person, whether I have taught many students, you should go to QQ to ask instead of guessing here.

Yes, I am opposed to people who practice for the purpose of health to follow me.

 

你跟另外一個人犯了同樣的錯誤，我是否教了很多學生，你應該去ＱＱ問，而不是在這裏亂猜。

是的，我反對以健康為練習目的的人來跟我學。

 

I hope that the people who come to learn are those who aim to refine the golden elixir.

 

我希望來學的人是以煉成金丹為目的的人。

 

 

[awaken]

12 minutes ago, dwai said:

To be a good teacher, you have to become a good listener. To be a good listener, you must learn to be silent and attentive. Otherwise, you are simply talking down on others and trying to foist your ideas onto others, irrespective of whether they want to "buy what you're selling." 

 

 

 

Thanks for your advice

i don't sell anything

 

 

 

謝謝你的建議

我不賣東西

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by awaken

[Wilhelm]

3 hours ago, awaken said:

I didn't claim to be an Arhat, so don't dig a pit for me to jump into.

I didn't ask to sit on the grass, I said that the aura in the natural environment is stronger and it is easier to practice.

You should read my article carefully, I never said "sit on the grass and practice"

Ok.  I apologize for mischaracterizing your practice.  I was mistaken.  You have a lot of articles and I have not read many of them.

Quote

You asked me to ask, so I asked, how do you usually practice?

An important part of my practice is trying to be kind to everyone all the time, and it's not going very well today!

Quote

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Wilhelm

[dwai]

19 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

Thanks for your advice

Glad to help  

19 minutes ago, awaken said:

i don't sell anything

Good...so are you willing to become a better listener going forward?

19 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

 

 

謝謝你的建議

我不賣東西

 

 

[awaken]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

Glad to help  

Good...so are you willing to become a better listener going forward?

 

 

 

If I thought you were threatening me with your admin privileges, I would say less.

 

[dwai]

35 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

 

If I thought you were threatening me with your admin privileges, I would say less.

 

Glad you don't think I was threatening you with my "admin" privileges. As moderators, we only want to ensure civility in the discussions on the board and that people are not taking each other down, such as lambasting those who don't subscribe to their notions of practice, etc.

[Cobie]

1 hour ago, awaken said:

… Buddha doesn’t teach breathing,

Righto, I didn’t know that. Thanks for the info.  

 

Then who was it that started teaching breathing?

 

 

[ChiDragon]

6 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Righto, I didn’t know that. Thanks for the info.  

 

Then who was it that started teaching breathing?

 

 

The high level Shaolin monks practice and teaches Qigong which is breathing. Tibetan Monks also.

Edited January 26, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

19 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

The high level Shaolin monks practice and teaches Qigong which is breathing.

So is this the same practice you do?

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

8 minutes ago, Cobie said:

So is this the same practice you do?

 

 

Yes, it is Qigong. What else could it be?

[Cobie]

17 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, it is Qigong. What else could it be?

I’m not informed enough on the subject to have any ideas as yet. 
 

Google tells me, “Qigong is an ancient Chinese breathing exercise with meditation which is being developed today for therapy of chronic illnesses in the People's Republic of China.”

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6763845/

 

So do you also meditate? 
 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Cobie