On the nature and utility of 'goal posts' in meditative and energetic practice

[ChiDragon]

10 minutes ago, Cobie said:

I’m not informed enough on the subject to have any ideas as yet. 
 

Google tells me, “Qigong is an ancient Chinese breathing exercise with meditation which is being developed today for therapy of chronic illnesses in the People's Republic of China.”

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6763845/

 

So do you also meditate? 

 

Yes, it was understood meditation is part of the practice for Qigong.

Edited January 26, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

3 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Yes, it was understood meditation is part of the practice for Qigong.

I know the special breathing is done during the exercises.
 

Do you meditate during the exercises, or is the meditation done separately at another time?

And if the latter, Is the special breathing also done during the meditation? 
 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

7 minutes ago, Cobie said:

So how does it work? Do you meditate during the exercises, or is the meditation done separately at another time?

Meditation is sitting at any or lotus position while doing the abdominal breathing exercise.
How does it work? The breathing will bring the oxygen, from the air, into the body to produce energy. That is why people always think that Qigong is energy work; and ignored that breathing was the main part.

Edited January 26, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

@ChiDragon Is the type of breathing during practising the exercises different from the “abdominal breathing” during meditation?

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

10 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Is the type of breathing during practising the exercises different from the “abdominal breathing” during meditation?

 

 

No, it is not any different. Abdominal breathing is the ultimate breathing method(UBM) that all practitioners wanted to achieve without realizing it. All martial artists are familiar with the UBM. Otherwise, they can't perform martial arts.

Edited January 26, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Wilhelm]

2 hours ago, Sahaja said:

It’s interesting how there is also a history of “moving the goal posts” in the traditions themselves. Makes me chuckle at seeing a very human, fallible hand involved in this evolution and realize the importance of using the sweetness of humility to balance the bitterness of my certitudes. 

Which goalposts do you mean?  I was hoping next we could make the discussion a bit more specific 

[Cobie]

@ChiDragon I think it sounds difficult to coordinate, doing the exercises with the special breathing. Possibly easier while meditating.

Re UBM, I know there’s is also ‘reversed abdominal breathing’. How does one know which one to use?

[ChiDragon]

36 minutes ago, Cobie said:

I’m not informed enough on the subject to have any ideas as yet. 
 

Google tells me, “Qigong is an ancient Chinese breathing exercise with meditation which is being developed today for therapy of chronic illnesses in the People's Republic of China.”

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/6763845/

 

So do you also meditate? 
 

 

For those who practice Qigong or do not understand what Qigong is all about. I would recommend that please stick with this definition to accomplish the goal in martial arts.

[ChiDragon]

10 minutes ago, Cobie said:

@ChiDragon I think it sounds difficult to coordinate, doing the exercises with the special breathing. Possibly easier while meditating.

Re UBM, I know there’s is also ‘reversed abdominal breathing’. How does one know which one to use?

Meditate without the UBM is not practicing Qigong at all. Qigong must be performed with the UBM.

There is no restriction on which one to be used, either one will work. Normally, the ‘reversed abdominal breathing’ was used during combat situations.

Edited January 26, 2023 by ChiDragon

[Cobie]

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

Meditate without the UBM is not practicing Qigong at all. Qigong must be performed with the UBM. The is no restriction on which one to be used, either one will work. …

 

Righto. 
 

1 minute ago, ChiDragon said:

… Normally, the ‘reversed abdominal breathing’ was used during combat situations.

Yes, that makes perfect sense to me, fits how it felt for me when trying it out. 
 

 

[Cobie]

58 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

Meditation is sitting at any or lotus position while doing the abdominal breathing exercise.
How does it work? The breathing will bring the oxygen, from the air, into the body to produce energy.

 

Makes sense to me. 氣 qi - means ‘breath’, ‘air’.  Breathing brings in air. No air, no energy. Better breathing, more energy. 
 

Quote

That is why people always think that Qigong is energy work; …

 

What is “energy work”?
 

Quote

and ignored that breathing was the main part.

Righto. Chinese qigong is doing special physical exercises and (separately) sitting in meditation, both while focusing on the breathing. 

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

1 minute ago, Cobie said:

What is “energy work”?

This is what westerners thought the definition was for 氣功:
氣: energy

功: work

[Cobie]

2 minutes ago, ChiDragon said:

This is what westerners thought the definition was for 氣功:
氣: energy

功: work

Yeah, that’s how it often goes, people will take an ancient art and do something else entirely with it.

 

[Cobie]

@ChiDragon is there anything known about the earliest roots of qigong? Or do you think the Shaolin monks invented it?
 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Cobie

[Creation]

3 hours ago, Sahaja said:

It’s interesting how there is also a history of “moving the goal posts” in the traditions themselves.

 

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

Which goalposts do you mean?  I was hoping next we could make the discussion a bit more specific 

I could easily believe that the shift toward sudden awakening practices like koans and deemphaisis on the four dhyanas in mainstream Chan/Zen was to make real shifts in consciousness more accessible to laypeople, for instance when Chan became popular with urban literati, and when Buddhist monks were persecuted and forced to have wives and jobs.

 

Though as a layperson that doesn't decrease my interest in sudden awakening.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Creation

[Cobie]

Deleted. Thought better of it. 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

3 hours ago, Cobie said:

@ChiDragon is there anything known about the earliest roots of qigong? Or do you think the Shaolin monks invented it?
 

 

 I believe Qigong was a derivative of Yoga which introduced into China by Dharma.

[Creation]

18 hours ago, freeform said:

PS - I didn’t know Trungpa is still venerated! How do you know that he is?

He's in the same category as Osho, there are many who say he radically changed their life for the better, and have to come to grips with his considerable flaws in their own way given their gratitude towards him.  Pema Chodron is probably the most famous example. 

[Creation]

11 hours ago, Sahaja said:

It’s interesting how there is also a history of “moving the goal posts” in the traditions themselves. Makes me chuckle at seeing a very human, fallible hand involved in this evolution and realize the importance of using the sweetness of humility to balance the bitterness of my certitudes. 

Oh, another bit about this, since being on topic is

 

So, even among highly traditional expressions of Buddhisms, they can't quite agree on what the jhanas are.  For instance, in the original Pali Suttas, the Buddha said the breath stops in 4th jhana.  Some traditional commentaries say this is not to be taken literally, the breath just seems to stop (can't remember a reference for this).  Some take it literally and say, "Why would you want such a thing, it's not important to practice this" (Vausbandhu).  Others, like the famous Visuddhimagga of the Theravada tradition, take out any mention of the breath stopping at all in their description of jhana, as though it's no longer a criterion for determining correct jhana.  And somewhere in the Chinese tradition, it got moved so that the breath stopping was a criterion for first jhana (Hsuan Hua and Nan Huaijin both say this). 

 

So will the real jhana please stand up?  And the real kevala kumbhaka/tai xi for that matter. 

 

Would love to hear your take on this @freeform

Edited January 27, 2023 by Creation

[awaken]

余聞上古有真人者，提挈天地，把握陰陽，呼吸精氣，獨立守神，肌肉若一，故能壽敝天地，无有終時，此其道生。

 

https://ctext.org/huangdi-neijing/shang-gu-tian-zhen-lun/zh?en=off

 

 

Qigong is called Daoyin in the Yellow Emperor's Internal Classic.

The Yellow Emperor's Canon of Internal Medicine has been around for at least two thousand years.

How could Qigong come from yoga?

 

氣功在黃帝內經稱為導引。

黃帝內經至少已經兩千多年了。

氣功怎麼可能來自於瑜伽呢？

 

The characteristic of the four meditations is the purity of equanimity. That is, the complete loss of self-consciousness. Self-consciousness includes body consciousness. Breathing is included in body consciousness.

In addition to the characteristic of pure equanimity, there is another characteristic of nirvana.

 

These are all from the classics.

四禪定的特徵就是捨念清淨。也就是自我意識完全消失。自我意識包含身體意識。呼吸包含在身體意識當中。

除了捨念清淨的特徵之外，還有另外一個特徵就是涅槃。

這些內容都是來自於經典。

 

To understand qi, you need to read the Yellow Emperor's Internal Classic.

To understand the Four Meditations, you must read the Agama Sutra.

 

要了解氣，就要看黃帝內經。

要了解四禪定就要看阿含經。

 

Treating breathing practice as alchemy is considered heresy.

Swallowing body fluids and absorbing qi is a human practice, and there are prescriptions that can make good fortune and life. If there is no real seed in the tripod, it is like boiling water and fire in an empty pan.

 

把練習呼吸當成丹道被認為是旁門左道。

咽津納氣是人行，有藥方能造化生。鼎內若無真種子，猶將水火煮空鐺。

 

 

Buddha does not teach breathing, Buddha teaches how to use attention, how to transform attention and consciousness.

 

佛陀不教呼吸，佛陀教的是注意力的使用方式，以及如何轉化注意力和意識。

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by awaken

[freeform]

4 hours ago, Creation said:

For instance, in the original Pali Suttas, the Buddha said the breath stops in 4th jhana.  Some traditional commentaries say this is not to be taken literally, the breath just seems to stop (can't remember a reference for this).  Some take it literally and say, "Why would you want such a thing, it's not important to practice this" (Vausbandhu).  Others, like the famous Visuddhimagga of the Theravada tradition, take out any mention of the breath stopping at all in their description of jhana, as though it's no longer a criterion for determining correct jhana.

I side with the Theravadan interpretation - that it’s not one of the conditions for determining Jhanna…

 

Only because for me, my breath stops at various lesser samadhi absorptions…

 

However I’ve been taught that both breathing - and all other metabolic processes pause during 4th Jhanna… things like heartbeat, pulse etc - and this absorption can last from days to months at a time…

 

The place I go to in Burma they have these tiny caves that have been lined with smooth clay - once you’re in they seal the entrance with clay too… apparently to stop insects and vermin messing with the body during  extended meditation… it struck me that once the entrance was sealed closed, there wouldn’t be any air exchange… not a problem if you’re not gonna be breathing I guess 😅

 

Ive heard stories of having to plug the various orifices of the body to stop insects and rats making their way in aswell 

[Cobie]

 

11 hours ago, awaken said:

… Qigong is called Daoyin in the Yellow Emperor's Internal Classic. …

氣功在黃帝內經稱為導引 …

 

Why do you think 氣功 (qi4 gong1) equals 導引 (dao3 yin3)?

 

 ~~~

qì gōng zài huáng dì nèi jīng chen4 wéi dǎo yǐn

 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Cobie

[Sketch]

For that matter,  what is the Anapanasati Sutra about then?

 

Pardon me, I really need to leave you folks to this sort of thing without my input.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Sketch

[Cobie]

 

11 hours ago, awaken said:

… Buddha does not teach breathing, Buddha teaches how to use attention …

佛陀不教呼吸，佛陀教的是注意力的使用方式，...

 

How come Bodhidharma taugth breathing if the Buddha did not teach it? 

 

~~~

佛陀 - Buddha 

fó tuó bù jiào hū xī ， fó tuó jiào de shì zhù yì lì de shǐ yòng fāng shì

 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Cobie

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, Cobie said:

 

Why do you think 氣功 (qi4 gong1) equals 導引 (dao3 yin3)?

 ~~~

qì gōng zài huáng dì nèi jīng chēng wéi dǎo yǐn

 

 

 

Even today most of QG are Tao Yin, moving things, drawing Chi around.   While static ones are usually not.