On the nature and utility of 'goal posts' in meditative and energetic practice

[forestofclarity]

11 hours ago, Creation said:

So will the real jhana please stand up?  And the real kevala kumbhaka/tai xi for that matter. 

 

This is a point that is often overlooked. 

 

In this case, either one has a narrow view of the world, or the world is in fact narrow. In a narrow world, there is only a certain set of facts that can be true, and must be true for everyone. This is the source of much conflict and suffering.

 

In the Mahayana Buddhist worldview, there is no objective, underlying reality. The world is a dream or a magical display, and what we call reality is really a group dream. Accordingly, the world is much more fluid, and many things may be true depending on one's karmic view. For example, a day at the beach to a human is often relaxing, but would be fire and molten metal to a hell being. How the world is experienced depends on one's karmic propensities. Our world becomes more heavenly or hell-like in harmony with our view. Which is not to say that any dream is entirely subjective: each dream has its own set of rules.

 

Personally, I have noticed that people on the more awakened side of the spectrum have a wider view all around. So I would say the right answer is the one that works for you and delivers authentic results, given your current karmic makeup. Not everyone has the ability to progress with hard core jhanas, and not everyone has the ability to make use of sudden awakening techniques. This is why we have so many teachers and teachings--- it is the generosity of the divine. A narrow view in that sense denies such generosity. 

 

 

[Cobie]

5 hours ago, Sketch said:

… Pardon me, I really need to leave you folks to this sort of thing without my input.

 

No, you “need” not imo. You bring good info, I did not know re this sutra; thank you.  

 

Quote

… what is the Anapanasati Sutra about then?

 

Could you post a relevant quote please?

 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Cobie

[Sketch]

“It is like this, bhikkhus: the practitioner goes into the forest or to the foot of a tree, or to any deserted place, sits stably in the lotus position, holding his or her body quite straight, and practices like this: ‘Breathing in, I know I am breathing in. Breathing out, I know I am breathing out.’

1. ‘Breathing in a long breath, I know I am breathing in a long breath. Breathing out a long breath, I know I am breathing out a long breath.’

2. ‘Breathing in a short breath, I know I am breathing in a short breath. Breathing out a short breath, I know I am breathing out a short breath.’

3. ‘Breathing in, I am aware of my whole body. Breathing out, I am aware of my whole body.’ He or she practices like this.

4. ‘Breathing in, I calm my whole body. Breathing out, I calm my whole body.’ He or she practices like this.

5. ‘Breathing in, I feel joyful. Breathing out, I feel joyful.’¹⁶ He or she practices like this.

6. ‘Breathing in, I feel happy. Breathing out, I feel happy.’ He or she practices like this.

7. ‘Breathing in, I am aware of my mental formations. Breathing out, I am aware of my mental formations.’ He or she practices like this.

8. ‘Breathing in, I calm my mental formations. Breathing out, I calm my mental formations.’ He or she practices like this.

9. ‘Breathing in, I am aware of my mind. Breathing out, I am aware of my mind.’ He or she practices like this.

10. ‘Breathing in, I make my mind happy. Breathing out, I make my mind happy.’ He or she practices like this."

 

It goes on like this. 

This is from Thich Nhat Hanh's translation of Anapanasati "On the full awareness of breathing " in "Awakening of the Heart : Essential Buddhist Sutras and Commentaries "

 

I've looked at other translations, and they all talk about breathing. 

 

[Cobie]

 

1 hour ago, Sketch said:

“It is like this, bhikkhus: the practitioner … practices like this: ‘Breathing in, I know I am breathing in. Breathing out, I know I am breathing out. …

 

Thank you very much for the quote. You really must post more!   
 

 

13 hours ago, awaken said:

… Buddha does not teach breathing, Buddha teaches how to use attention, how to transform attention and consciousness.

 

佛陀不教呼吸，佛陀教的是注意力的使用方式，以及如何轉化注意力和意識。

 

@awaken seems the Buddha did teach breathing: 

Ānāpānasati (Pali; Sanskrit ānāpānasmṛti), meaning "mindfulness of breathing" ("sati" means mindfulness; "ānāpāna" refers to inhalation and exhalation[1]), paying attention to the breath. It is the quintessential form of Buddhist meditation, attributed to Gautama Buddha, and described in several suttas, most notably the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118).[note 1]

Derivations of anāpānasati are common to Tibetan, Zen, Tiantai and Theravada Buddhism as well as Western-based mindfulness programs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati    
 

@ChiDragon the above quoted “ānāpāna" refers to inhalation and exhalation”, this seems to me to be exactly what’s now called 吐纳 tu3 na4. 

 

13 hours ago, awaken said:

… Qigong is called Daoyin in the Yellow Emperor's Internal Classic.

The Yellow Emperor's Canon of Internal Medicine has been around for at least two thousand years.

How could Qigong come from yoga?

 

氣功在黃帝內經稱為導引。

黃帝內經至少已經兩千多年了。

氣功怎麼可能來自於瑜伽呢？…

 

6 hours ago, Master Logray said:

… most of QG are Tao Yin, moving things, …

@awaken could it be the qigong special exercises are based in Daoyin, and the qigong breathing was added to it later by Bodidharma?

 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Cobie

[Cobie]

5 hours ago, Master Logray said:

Even today most of QG are Tao Yin, moving things, drawing Chi around.   While static ones are usually not.

 

Thank you very much for the info.  You say, “drawing Chi around”,  could you please describe what “Chi” means according to you? 
 

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by Cobie

[ChiDragon]

59 minutes ago, Cobie said:

@ChiDragon the above quoted “ānāpāna" refers to inhalation and exhalation”, seems to me the exactly what’s now called 吐纳 tu3 na4. 

Yes. You are very good in tracking information. IMO You are a scholar and a lady.

Edited January 27, 2023 by ChiDragon

[awaken]

7 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

 

Thank you very much for the quote. You really must post more!   
 

 

 

@awaken seems the Buddha did teach breathing: 

Ānāpānasati (Pali; Sanskrit ānāpānasmṛti), meaning "mindfulness of breathing" ("sati" means mindfulness; "ānāpāna" refers to inhalation and exhalation[1]), paying attention to the breath. It is the quintessential form of Buddhist meditation, attributed to Gautama Buddha, and described in several suttas, most notably the Ānāpānasati Sutta (MN 118).[note 1]

Derivations of anāpānasati are common to Tibetan, Zen, Tiantai and Theravada Buddhism as well as Western-based mindfulness programs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati    
 

@ChiDragon the above quoted “ānāpāna" refers to inhalation and exhalation”, this seems to me to be exactly what’s now called 吐纳 tu3 na4. 

 

 

@awaken could it be the qigong special exercises are based in Daoyin, and the qigong breathing was added to it later by Bodidharma?

 

 

 

 

I have seen what you said many times. He didn’t teach how to breathe, he only taught to observe the breath, and he taught to observe many phenomena, and breathing is only one of the phenomena.

This is completely different from the technique of breathing in the transfer method. What he teaches is awareness, not breathing.

Bodhidharma teaches the Sri Lanka Sutra, you should read the Sri Lanka Sutra.

Bodhidharma didn't teach breathing either.

 

你說的內容我看過很多次了，他沒有教如何呼吸，他只有教觀察呼吸，而且他教觀察很多現象，呼吸只是其中一個現象，這和搬運法那種在呼吸上用技巧的方式完全不同，他教的是覺知，不是呼吸。

達摩教的是楞伽經，你應該去看一下楞伽經。

達摩也沒有教呼吸。

Edited January 28, 2023 by awaken

[doc benway]

27 minutes ago, awaken said:

This is completely different from the technique of breathing in the transfer method.

 

Would you please share your description of the technique of breathing in the transfer method?

 

It would perhaps help to make sure we are on the same page.

 

I agree with your point that Buddha did not teach breathing technique but attention technique using breath as the object.

[Creation]

17 hours ago, freeform said:

 

However I’ve been taught that both breathing - and all other metabolic processes pause during 4th Jhanna… things like heartbeat, pulse etc - and this absorption can last from days to months at a time…

 

By this do you mean, that this happens in a way that is dramatically deeper, longer, or more complete of a stopping than in previous jhanas or samadhis?  Because this could very well be what the Buddha meant when he said in the Suttas that the breath stops in 4th jhana, and later generations moved the goalposts to mean some type of less deep or complete stopping of the breath. 

[Creation]

11 hours ago, forestofemptiness said:

Personally, I have noticed that people on the more awakened side of the spectrum have a wider view all around. So I would say the right answer is the one that works for you and delivers authentic results, given your current karmic makeup. Not everyone has the ability to progress with hard core jhanas, and not everyone has the ability to make use of sudden awakening techniques. This is why we have so many teachers and teachings--- it is the generosity of the divine. A narrow view in that sense denies such generosity. 

My interest in clarifying these points definitely isn't to then tell others they are wrong, or should be doing something else.  Even saying people have "moved the goalposts" isn't actually a value judgement to me, even though I can see why someone might take it that way.  _/\_

[Sahaja]

On 1/26/2023 at 11:55 AM, Wilhelm said:

On 1/26/2023 at 11:55 AM, Wilhelm said:

Which goalposts do you mean?  I was hoping next we could make the discussion a bit more specific 

little” vs “big” vehicle,  25 tattvas vs 36 tattvas are two that come to mind   

[awaken]

3 hours ago, steve said:

 

Would you please share your description of the technique of breathing in the transfer method?

 

It would perhaps help to make sure we are on the same page.

 

I agree with your point that Buddha did not teach breathing technique but attention technique using breath as the object.

 

You should ask someone who practices carrying method

[awaken]

Breathing does not stop until the fourth jhana, but it starts to stop when the second jhana is established, and even the first jhana will stop breathing.
It is therefore very inappropriate to characterize the four jhānas with cessation of breathing.
The Buddha did not use cessation of breathing as the criterion for judging the four jhānas.

 

呼吸不是到了四禪定才停止，而是二禪定的時候就開始停止了，甚至初禪也會有呼吸停止的現象。
因此用停止呼吸做為四禪定的特徵是非常不恰當的。
佛陀用的不是呼吸停止做為四禪定的判斷標準。

[Wilhelm]

12 hours ago, awaken said:

 

nvm I was mistaken (also I think I'm blocked so not sure why I'm still editing this lol)

Edited January 28, 2023 by Wilhelm

[awaken]

The phenomenon of nirvana usually occurs after the fourth jhana, so it may cause a lot of misunderstanding if you take the cessation of breathing as the fourth jhana, and you may take the first jhana as the fourth jhana.
Therefore, you should read the Agama Sutra to understand the characteristics of the Buddha's true definition of the fourth meditation, which is the purity of equanimity.
I don't know how to translate "Shan Nian" in English. She Nian means giving up the last thought. The last thought is the meaning of the existence of consciousness. Letting go of the last thought means the cessation of consciousness.
In the third meditation, the last thought has already been abandoned, but it is not stable, so it is called impure.
But in the fourth meditation, the last thought of giving up is very stable, so it is called pure.
The definition of purity or impurity of abandoning the last thought is whether or not one has passed out.
If after abandoning consciousness, deep awareness does not arise, this is the case of passing out.
If after abandoning consciousness, deep awareness appears, and it exists very stably, without fainting, this situation is called the pureness of abandoning thoughts.
The characteristic is that all the senses of the body are asleep, but the inner awareness is awake.
Of course it includes breathing, and the feeling of breathing is one of the sensory functions of the body.

However, the cessation of breathing also occurs between the first meditation and the third meditation, so the cessation of breathing cannot be used as the criterion for judging whether it is the fourth meditation.

The phenomenon of nirvana usually occurs after the fourth jhana, because the consciousness has been abandoned in the state of the fourth jhana, and deep awareness has arisen. In this case, it is already an innate state, so after leaving the fourth jhana In the present moment, it is very easy to have a short-term nirvana phenomenon.

 

四禪定的後面通常會產生涅槃現象，所以如果把停止呼吸當成四禪定有可能會造成很大的誤會，可能會把初禪當成四禪。
所以各位應該閱讀阿含經，了解佛陀真正定義四禪定的特徵，就是捨念清淨。
英文該如何翻譯「捨念」我就不知道了，捨念的意思是最後一念的捨棄。最後一念就是意識存在的意思。捨棄最後一念的意思就是意識的停止。
第三禪定就已經有捨棄最後一念的情況發生了，但是並不穩固，所以稱為不清淨。
但是到了第四禪定的捨棄最後一念就非常穩固了，因此稱為清淨。
捨棄最後一念的清淨或者不清淨的定義就是有沒有昏過去。
如果捨棄意識之後，深度覺知沒有出現，這種情況就會昏過去。
如果捨棄意識之後，深度覺知出現了，而且非常穩定的存在，並沒有昏過去，這種情況就稱為捨念清淨。
特徵就是身體所有的感官都沈睡了，但是內在覺知是清醒的。
當然包含呼吸，對呼吸的感覺是身體的感官作用之一。

但是停止呼吸在第一禪定到第三禪定之間也會發生，所以不能以停止呼吸當成判斷是否是第四禪定的標準。

第四禪定的後面通常會發生涅槃現象，是因為第四禪定的狀態下已經捨棄意識，而且升起深度覺知，這種情況下，已經是先天的狀態，所以在脫離第四禪定的當下，就非常容易出現短暫的涅槃現象。

Edited January 28, 2023 by awaken

[Master Logray]

17 hours ago, Cobie said:

 

Thank you very much for the info.  You say, “drawing Chi around”,  could you please describe what “Chi” means according to you? 
 

 

 

Presume you have come across this word 炁.  This is the "Real Chi" 真氣, as against the normal breath, or the top cosmic force.   All the special powers, access to other realms and physical transformation is from this 炁 .   In the old days, people were confused by the word 氣，so they coined a new word.  This refers to your earlier question in one of your posts.

 

The three types of Chi exhibits quite different properties.  But they are the same thing after all.  You can treat it as a continuum, from very light to very dense.   In general, the top levels cannot be accessed directly, nor changed.  While the breathing level is subjected to manipulation by breathing exercises, 吐納。

 

Most of the QGs, are using breath manipulation, with physical movements and along with some mind techniques.  The aim is to generate this real Chi.   Then what is this QG level Chi?   It consists of breaths, gases, but also body fluid, particles, enzymes, hormones and even some wastes.  Another component is electrical impulses, vibrations and resonance.  When these pass through areas, they create many phenomenons, e.g. activates some particular neurons, thereby exhibits feeling of seeing light.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[doc benway]

8 hours ago, awaken said:

 

You should ask someone who practices carrying method

 

That would not help me because I am trying to understand you, not someone else. But if you do not wish to be more clear that is fine.

Thanks

[Sahaja]

46 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

The phenomenon of nirvana usually occurs after the fourth jhana, because the consciousness has been abandoned in the state of the fourth jhana, and deep awareness has arisen. In this case, it is already an innate state, so after leaving the fourth jhana In the present moment, it is very easy to have a short-term nirvana phenomenon.

 

 

第四禪定的後面通常會發生涅槃現象，是因為第四禪定的狀態下已經捨棄意識，而且升起深度覺知，這種情況下，已經是先天的狀態，所以在脫離第四禪定的當下，就非常容易出現短暫的涅槃現象。

Thank you for sharing your views of the form based Jhanas and pointing to the agama sutras.  I found this helpful.

 

would you be willing to share your views on the meaning and utility of the formless Jhanas? (5 -8)  I’ve read/heard different views on this topic and I am trying to improve my understanding. Thank you. 

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, awaken said:

I don't know how to translate "Shan Nian" in English. She Nian means giving up the last thought.

it is a buddhist term

「捨念清淨」(upekkha-sati-parisuddhi)

a "state of perfect equanimity and awareness (upekkhā-sati-parisuddhi)." 

https://encyclopedia.pub/entry/28911

 

[Cobie]

 

16 hours ago, awaken said:

…. He didn’t teach how to breathe, he only taught to observe the breath, and he taught to observe many phenomena, and breathing is only one of the phenomena.  … What he teaches is awareness, not breathing.…. Bodhidharma didn't teach breathing either.

 

Righto. Thanks for elucidating.  
 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Cobie

[Creation]

6 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

Neither did anyone here Freeform was just talking about that one aspect of it.  I'd love to hear your thoughts as well!

I did. It's in the Pali Suttas.

[Wilhelm]

8 minutes ago, Creation said:

I did. It's in the Pali Suttas.

Oh ok.  My mistake  

[Cobie]

4 hours ago, Master Logray said:

 

Presume you have come across this word 炁.  This is the "Real Chi" 真氣, as against the normal breath, or the top cosmic force.   All the special powers, access to other realms and physical transformation is from this 炁 .   In the old days, people were confused by the word 氣，so they coined a new word.  This refers to your earlier question in one of your posts.

 

The three types of Chi exhibits quite different properties.  But they are the same thing after all.  You can treat it as a continuum, from very light to very dense.   In general, the top levels cannot be accessed directly, nor changed.  While the breathing level is subjected to manipulation by breathing exercises, 吐納。

 

Most of the QGs, are using breath manipulation, with physical movements and along with some mind techniques.  The aim is to generate this real Chi.   Then what is this QG level Chi?   It consists of breaths, gases, but also body fluid, particles, enzymes, hormones and even some wastes.  Another component is electrical impulses, vibrations and resonance.  When these pass through areas, they create many phenomenons, e.g. activates some particular neurons, thereby exhibits feeling of seeing light.

 

@Master Logray very informative, thank you very much. 
 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Cobie

[Creation]

12 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Oh ok.  My mistake  

Well, I brought up that it's in the Suttas and mentioned traditional commentaries have different interpretations of what it means, and asked freeform's opinion, since he is steeped in two jhana based traditions. I'm making a point to not make claims myself.

[Cobie]

On 25/01/2023 at 5:51 PM, Wilhelm said:

… I'm sorry to hear about those poor carrying method and transfer method practitioners.  I'm glad there's no one here claiming to use those methods!

I might be glad too, just 2 questions first:

What is “carrying method”? 

What is “transfer method”? 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by Cobie