On the nature and utility of 'goal posts' in meditative and energetic practice

[dwai]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

In Awaken’s terminology ‘carrying method’ and ‘transfer method’ are one and the same thing.

 

It simply means using the mind to cause change… she correctly (imo) points out that using acquired consciousness to move qi (or enter ‘meditative’ states) is incorrect…

What is "acquired" consciousness? That in itself is a misunderstanding of epic proportions! There is no "Acquired" consciousness. There is the mind which is reflected consciousness. Consciousness can neither be acquired nor abandoned.

[awaken]

Whether it is the Agama Sutra or the Dan Sutra, the explanation of the relationship between the senses and consciousness is the same.
Before we say that the classics misunderstood something, should we first think about whether we really misunderstood something.

Regarding the google translation, sometimes it is translated into this word, and sometimes it is translated into that word. This is difficult to deal with, because I don't know how the word "moving method" is defined in English.

The term "carrying" also comes from the ancient alchemy master, and it is not my own creation.

I personally don't agree with squatting or sitting still. It should follow the nature of the body. The body will have its own language. We should respect our body.

Sitting for long periods of time is really bad.

 

 

不管是阿含經或是丹經對於感官和意識之間的解釋都是相同的。
當我們在說經典經典誤解了什麼之前，是否應該先自己思考一下，是否自己真的誤解了什麼。

關於google翻譯搬運法有時候翻譯成這個字，有時候翻譯成那個字，這個是很難處理的，因為我也不知道到底英文是如何定義搬運法這個字。

搬運這個名詞也是來自於古代的丹道大師，並非我個人自創。

我個人不太贊成或者蹲著不動，應該是順應身體的自然，身體會有他自己的語言出現，我們應該要尊重我們的身體。

久坐確實不好。

 

It is also not a good thing to constantly distort the minds of others.

 

經常扭曲他人的思想也不是一件好事情。

[freeform]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

What is "acquired" consciousness? That in itself is a misunderstanding of epic proportions! There is no "Acquired" consciousness. There is the mind which is reflected consciousness. Consciousness can neither be acquired nor abandoned.

You’re starting to sound like Awaken yourself! 😅

 

The only way I can understand others is to let go of my own views for a short while to understand their views from my (admittedly faulty) interpretation of their POV.
 

I think that sometimes it’s worth giving people the benefit of the doubt and being gentle with the imposition of your own views before fully understanding.

 

By Acquired consciousness, I mean the consciousness of the acquired mind. ‘Sense-based consciousness’… the self that dies when ‘you’ die.

 

The consciousness revealed when you ‘seal the senses’ is the consciousness of the Original Self - Soul (or black liver (from what I figure of her writing)) or whatever you want to call it.

[awaken]

22 minutes ago, freeform said:

In Awaken’s terminology ‘carrying method’ and ‘transfer method’ are one and the same thing.

 

It simply means using the mind to cause change… she correctly (imo) points out that using acquired consciousness to move qi (or enter ‘meditative’ states) is incorrect…

 

thank you for the explanation

Because you're half right.

In fact, I only said half of what I said earlier.

Because I haven't had a chance to make the remaining half clear.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify the remaining half.

What I object to is directing the qi with attention.

But in the water and fire stage, as long as the attention is on the body, it will cause the movement of qi.
And I have nothing against this situation.

What I object to is a targeted conscious intervention.

For example, when someone practices qi, he wants the qi to move in which direction, so he will use his attention to try to influence the direction of qi movement.

This is what I object to.

Another situation is that when the attention is naturally placed on the body, this way of placing the attention itself will cause the movement of Qi. I have no objection to this way.

 

謝謝你的解釋

因為你說對了一半。

其實我前面也只說了一半。

因為我沒機會把剩下的一半說清楚。

謝謝你讓我有機會可以把剩下的一半說清楚。

我反對的是用注意力去引導氣。

但是在水火階段，注意力只要放在身體，本身就會引起氣的移動。
而我不反對這種情況。

我反對的是一種目標性的意識干涉。

例如，當某個人練氣的時候，他希望氣往哪個方向移動，因此他會用他的注意力去嘗試去影響氣的行走方向。

這是我反對的。

另外一種情況是，當注意力很自然地放在身上，這種注意力的放置方式，本身就會引起氣的移動，這種方式我不反對。
 

 

When the attention is in the state of martial fire, no matter where it is placed on the body, it will cause the movement of qi.

What I object to is the purposeful use of attention to influence the direction of chi.

 

當注意力處於武火狀態，不管放在身上哪個地方，都會引發氣的移動。

我反對的是目標性的使用注意力來影響氣的方向。

 

Therefore, in the process of practice, we must be in a state of awareness, aware of whether we have thoughts to affect the direction of qi.

Therefore, the protagonist of our practice is "Shen", not Qi.
"Qi" is the product of "Shen".

 

所以在練習過程中，我們必須處在一種覺知狀態，覺知自己是否產生意念去影響氣的走向。

因此我們練的主角是「神」，而不是氣。
「氣」是「神」的產品。

 

And this kind of behavior is called the cleansing of Yangtu(earth of yang) in the Tao of Alchemy.

 

而這樣的行為在丹道裡面稱為陽土的清淨。

 

If there is no yang earth, wood and gold （mental）cannot be produced.

 

如果沒有陽土，則無法產生木和金。

 

Without Yang-earth, a person will stay at the level of water and fire, unable to evolve to wood and metal.

 

沒有陽土，一個人就會停留在水和火的層次，無法產生進化到木和金。

 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by awaken

[liminal_luke]

Miraculously, some foundational principles of people's thought are becoming, at long last, clear. Thank you!

[dwai]

13 minutes ago, freeform said:

You’re starting to sound like Awaken yourself! 😅

 

The only way I can understand others is to let go of my own views for a short while to understand their views from my (admittedly faulty) interpretation of their POV.
 

I think that sometimes it’s worth giving people the benefit of the doubt and being gentle with the imposition of your own views before fully understanding.

I agree. I'm just using this as a teachable moment for some of our more belligerent members (not yourself). 

Quote

 

By Acquired consciousness, I mean the consciousness of the acquired mind. ‘Sense-based consciousness’… the self that dies when ‘you’ die.

Given that a certain member is always putting others down by using pedantry, I would like to employ the same tactic.

 

The mind is not acquired. It is a phenomenon that arises with the "entry" into the phenomenon world (birth); it reflects pure consciousness, which can neither be created nor destroyed/dissipated. Whatever appears in mind is a consequence of objects that exist in the collective unconscious (universal mind). The specific conditions of the personality (such as place/culture of birth, religion, family, etc.) will draw specific types of objects into the mind (these are called tendencies/vasanas). 

 

Consciousness is spotless; it is unsullied and ever present, and it can neither be acquired nor relinquished.

 

Can space be acquired by a cup? Can clay be acquired by a pot?  Or, Can gold be acquired by an ornament?

 

When the appearance in the phenomenal world ends (death), the conditions that give rise to the mind also cease to be, so it disappears. What remains are the latent tendencies that remain in the collective unconscious, called the "causal" body. 

Quote

 

The consciousness revealed when you ‘seal the senses’ is the consciousness of the Original Self - Soul (or black liver (from what I figure of her writing)) or whatever you want to call it.

 

What I'm saying is that the senses don't need to be sealed, though I understand that it is useful for a certain type of mind. If one employs the intellect in a certain way, it can cut through phenomena while senses are still very much active and functional, right here, right now. And once this is repeated over a period of time (constant practice), there is neither any need to seal the senses, nor any need to do alchemical gymnastics to either produce any elixir, nor birth any fetuses. One is never not the Original Self. The Original Self does not "have" consciousness any more than a cup can "have space". Consciousness IS the very nature of the Original Self. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by dwai

[awaken]

The black liver is not the soul of the self.

I never said that.

Consciousness, as the Buddha taught, is never spotless.
Consciousness as taught in the Dan Sutra is never spotless.

When a person sees himself as greater than Buddha, communication becomes impossible.

 

烏肝不是自我的靈魂。

我從未這樣說過。

佛陀所講的意識從來不是一塵不染的。
丹經所講的意識從來也不是一塵不染的。

當一個人把自己看得比佛陀還偉大的時候，溝通變得已經是不可能了。

 

 

That's why I said that if you don't develop the ability to evolve through inaction, it is difficult to understand the alchemy.

A black liver is not a soul, at least not as defined by the Western world.

Wugan is indeed a "soul" in the fellowship contract, but the content is not the self-surviving soul in the Western world.

If you want to understand what "soul" is, you may have to give up the definition of soul in English first.

 

所以我才說如果沒有練出無為演化的能力，是很難理解丹經的。

烏肝不是靈魂，至少不是西方世界所定義的靈魂。

烏肝在參同契當中確實是「魂」，但是內容不是西方世界中自我存續的靈魂。

如果你要了解什麼是「魂」，可能要先放棄英語當中對於靈魂的定義。

 

 

For the word "soul", you should look at its Chinese structure.
This character is composed of clouds and ghosts.

The focus is on the cloud.

Like Yun, the definition of "soul" has been clearly stated in Chinese.

The black liver is a cloud-like light, a kind of light similar to the Northern Lights.

But it can be controlled by consciousness, so it will form a circle.

It can be zoomed in, zoomed out, and moved.

 

「魂」這個字，各位要看一下他的中文結構。
這個字是由雲和鬼合成的。

重點在於雲。

像雲一樣，中文裡面就已經清楚地說明了「魂」的定義了。

烏肝就是像雲一樣的光，類似北極光的一種光。

但是可以被意識所控制，因此會形成一個圓形。

可放大，可縮小，可移動。

 

Likewise, if one wants to understand consciousness, one must abandon the psychological definitions of the Western world.

Only in this way can we understand the true meaning of what the Buddha said about turning consciousness into deep awareness.

Only then can we understand the definitions of "Shen of consciousness" and "Yuan Shen" in the Alchemy.

 

同樣的，如果想要了解意識，就必須捨棄西方世界心理學上的定義。

這樣才能了解佛陀所說的把意識轉成深度覺的真義。

也才能了解丹經裡面「識神」和「元神」的定義。

 

When you talk about alchemy practice, you have to understand that the definition of alchemy is very different from that in the western world.

The definition of "soul（Hun）" is different. The definition of "consciousness" is also different.

The difference is very large.

 

當你在談論丹道修行的時候，你就要去了解丹道的名詞定義和西方世界是非常不同的。

「魂」的定義不同。「識」的定義也不同。

差異非常的大。

Edited January 30, 2023 by awaken

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, awaken said:

I don't quite understand your question.

i am asking because you always said 'transfer method' is bad (搬運法的謬誤)

Now you say 

3 hours ago, awaken said:

Practicing qi is the beginning, so there is no problem.

It seems you are contradicting yourself.

[Wilhelm]

22 minutes ago, awaken said:

What I object to is directing the qi with attention.

But in the water and fire stage, as long as the attention is on the body, it will cause the movement of qi.
And I have nothing against this situation.

What I object to is a targeted conscious intervention.

For example, when someone practices qi, he wants the qi to move in which direction, so he will use his attention to try to influence the direction of qi movement.

This is what I object to.

Another situation is that when the attention is naturally placed on the body, this way of placing the attention itself will cause the movement of Qi. I have no objection to this way.

All this disagreement and trouble but the whole time we were thinking the same thing 😭

 

I guess this is how the tower of Babel fell

[freeform]

23 minutes ago, awaken said:

For example, when someone practices qi, he wants the qi to move in which direction, so he will use his attention to try to influence the direction of qi movement.

This is what I object to.

Another situation is that when the attention is naturally placed on the body, this way of placing the attention itself will cause the movement of Qi. I have no objection to this way.

Great  

 

We agree on both of these points then.

[dwai]

12 minutes ago, awaken said:

Consciousness, as the Buddha taught, is never spotless.
Consciousness as taught in the Dan Sutra is never spotless.

When a person sees himself as greater than Buddha, communication becomes impossible.

 

Instead of blindly accepting everything that was said, apply your intelligence to understand what was not said. 

[Wilhelm]

19 minutes ago, dwai said:

The mind is not acquired. It is a phenomenon that arises with the "entry" into the phenomenon world (birth); it reflects pure consciousness, which can neither be created nor destroyed/dissipated. Whatever appears in mind is a consequence of objects that exist in the collective unconscious (universal mind). The specific conditions of the personality (such as place/culture of birth, religion, family, etc.) will draw specific types of objects into the mind (these are called tendencies/vasanas). 

I think this is another tower of Babel moment.  From what I gathered, 'acquired mind' was a term used to describe the process that self-perpetuates from gathering these objects and reinforcing its own existence

19 minutes ago, dwai said:

Consciousness is spotless; it is unsullied and ever present, and it can neither be acquired nor relinquished.

With consciousness being something else.

 

Could be the terms translate from different concepts in Vedanta.

 

[awaken]

5 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i am asking because you always said 'transfer method' is bad (搬運法的謬誤)

Now you say 

It seems you are contradicting yourself.

 

It's because you didn't see clearly, there is no contradiction.

I am not against practicing Qi.

I also practice Qi.

[awaken]

14 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

All this disagreement and trouble but the whole time we were thinking the same thing 😭

 

I guess this is how the tower of Babel fell

 

The part you can understand is this part.

And there are other parts that you don't understand.

The transfer method is not only about transferring "qi". Senior practitioners of transfer method no longer transfer "qi", but grasp the acquired thoughts and hold on to them.

 

你看得懂的部分是這個部分。

另外還有其他部分你沒看懂。

搬運法不是只有搬運「氣」，資深搬運法練習者已經不搬運「氣」了，而是抓住後天意念不放。

 

Experienced practitioners of the transfer method do not transfer "Qi" because the movement of Qi has become inertia.

Therefore, experienced practitioners of the transfer method do not need to transfer "Qi".

As long as they focus on breathing in the lower abdomen, the "qi" will circle the MCO by itself like a balloon.

Therefore, the situation of experienced practitioners of carrying method is different from that of beginners of carrying method.

Beginners of the carrying method need to use their minds to drive, but experienced practitioners of the carrying method only need to focus on the lower abdominal breathing.

However, more experienced practitioners of the transfer method will stay in the stubborn emptiness.

 

資深搬運法練習者不搬運「氣」是因為氣的移動已經成為慣性了。

所以資深搬運法練習者不需要搬運「氣」。

他們只要把注意力放在下腹部呼吸，「氣」就會像打氣球一樣，自己繞行ＭＣＯ。

所以資深搬運法練習者的狀況和搬運法初學者的狀況是不同的。

搬運法初學者需要用意念帶動，但是資深搬運法練習者只要把注意力放在下腹部呼吸就夠了。

而更資深的搬運法練習者則會停留在頑空定。
 

Edited January 30, 2023 by awaken

[awaken]

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

Instead of blindly accepting everything that was said, apply your intelligence to understand what was not said. 

 

Others are blind when they read the classics. What you said is different from the classics is wisdom.

 

.....

[dwai]

Just now, Wilhelm said:

I think this is another tower of Babel moment.  From what I gathered, 'acquired mind' was a term used to describe the process that self-perpetuates from gathering these objects and reinforcing its own existence

With consciousness being something else.

I think the problem is with translating untranslatable into English. When you say "acquired mind," what is it? Is it consciousness or the transactional entity that seems to allow us to operate in this phenomenal world? As opposed to an un-acquired mind? Mind and consciousness are incorrectly superimposed upon each other due to duality. So one cannot understand that the mind is simply reflecting Pure Consciousness. This is called ignorance. This is made worse by the English language, which does not have the syntax to categorize accurately. 

Just now, Wilhelm said:

 

Could be the terms translate from different concepts in Vedanta.

 

The "Truth" cannot be different, only different ways to speak it. 

[freeform]

25 minutes ago, dwai said:

belligerent members (not yourself). 

Oh I’m sure I fall in that category from time to time 😅

 

Quote

The mind is not acquired. It is a phenomenon that arises with the "entry" into the phenomenon world (birth); it reflects pure consciousness, which can neither be created nor destroyed/dissipated.

Honestly I think it’s just a case of semantics…

 

Daoists tend to differentiate the mind that arises out of sense-based cognition and the one that was there prior to this… of course they arise from the same source.

 

But they differentiate not for the purpose of explaining the truth of the matter, but for helping to give context to the process of internal alchemy… That’s why it might seem a bit arbitrary to ‘seal the senses’ (which is not quite what it appears to mean in reality) - but it’s important for the alchemical transformation process.

 

And as we know the views of internal alchemy and your views diverge significantly after the process of recognition of one’s true nature.

[dwai]

Just now, awaken said:

 

Others are blind when they read the classics. What you said is different from the classics is wisdom.

 

.....

What you say is due to incomprehension of what the classics actually say.  

[Wilhelm]

4 minutes ago, dwai said:

I think the problem is with translating untranslatable into English. When you say "acquired mind," what is it? Is it consciousness or the transactional entity that seems to allow us to operate in this phenomenal world? As opposed to an un-acquired mind? Mind and consciousness are incorrectly superimposed upon each other due to duality. So one cannot understand that the mind is simply reflecting Pure Consciousness. This is called ignorance. This is made worse by the English language, which does not have the syntax to categorize accurately. 

Yeah the Daoist teacher I study with relates mind to Xin, a process quite separate from consciousness .  I assume Mind is translated to something more profound in your tradition, meaning were describing different processes

Quote

The "Truth" cannot be different, only different ways to speak it. 

Yeah but if you define truth as translated Truth and I define truth as translated Apples then we're not really talking about the same thing. (This is a dumb joke)

Edited January 30, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Taoist Texts]

34 minutes ago, awaken said:

hen the attention is naturally placed on the body, this way of placing the attention itself will cause the movement of Qi.

 

6 minutes ago, awaken said:

I also practice Qi.

Now i understand what you mean by practicing qi. But you see  when  a post-heaven attention is placed on the post-heaven body - it will cause post-heavenly qi.

[Wilhelm]

13 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

The part you can understand is this part.

And there are other parts that you don't understand.

The transfer method is not only about transferring "qi". Senior practitioners of transfer method no longer transfer "qi", but grasp the acquired thoughts and hold on to them.

Thanks for continuing to explain!  If I understand your message correctly then I am quite happy, as I was also taught not to grasp onto the acquired thoughts!

 

But the term you added doesn't translate very clearly.  Could you say more about what you mean by stubborn emptiness?

Edited January 30, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Mithras]

What if a cultivator can’t use qi because their practice and have to use their ego entirely to cultivate.
 

Ex: Ego over mind instead of body soul relation

 

What are some possible options to cultivate considering no physical activity or spiritual practice considering communication?

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Yeah the Daoist teacher I study with relates mind to Xin, a process quite separate from consciousness .  I assume Mind is translated to something more profound in your tradition, meaning were describing different processes

Yeah but if you define truth as Truth and I define truth as Apples then we're not really talking about the same thing. (Which imo is the basis for the acquired mind of Daoism vs the Mind of Vedanta confusion)

That which allows knowing to arise is the Truth. 

[freeform]

29 minutes ago, awaken said:

A black liver is not a soul, at least not as defined by the Western world.

Could you try to explain a little more about it then?

 

You’ve mentioned the coloured lights that then form into a round shape… that’s the experience of the black liver… but what is the black liver actually?? It’s not Yuan Shen, right?

 

From what I understand it is the light of your Original Self (or your Soul… or the deeper aspect of Hun-Po) 

 

If you could explain Black Liver from your point of view, I think people would be able to understand you a little better.

[awaken]

2 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

Now i understand what you mean by practicing qi. But you see  when  a post-heaven attention is placed on the post-heaven body - it will cause post-heavenly qi.

 

As long as it is Qi, it is an acquired state.

Congenital Qi is produced when the yin reaches its extreme and creates a state of emptiness before it has a chance to appear.

 

只要是氣都屬於後天狀態。

先天氣的產生是在陰達到極點，產生虛空狀態，才有機會出現。