On the nature and utility of 'goal posts' in meditative and energetic practice

[freeform]

6 minutes ago, Mithras said:

What if a cultivator can’t use qi because their practice and have to use their ego entirely to cultivate.
 

Ex: Ego over mind instead of body soul relation

 

What are some possible options to cultivate considering no physical activity or spiritual practice considering communication?

Im not sure I completely get what you’re asking…

 

But prayer and service to others is one of the best cultivation methods if you’re not able to cultivate at the level of the qi or use the mind to reach meditative absorption.

[awaken]

15 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Thanks for continuing to explain!  If I understand your message correctly then I am quite happy, as I was also taught not to grasp onto the acquired thoughts!

 

 

 

The question is how to distinguish "acquired state" from "innate state"?

If there is not enough understanding of consciousness, the "acquired state" will be regarded as the "innate state"

The emergence of "innate state" must be the disappearance of "acquired state".

Therefore, there must be a disappearance of consciousness, a cessation of sense organs, and a state of deep sleep.

 

問題是「後天狀態」和「先天狀態」如何區分？

如果對於意識沒有足夠的了解，就會把「後天狀態」當成「先天狀態」

「先天狀態」的產生一定是「後天狀態」的消失。

所以一定有意識的消失，感官的停止，進入深度睡眠的狀態。

 

Also, because I told you too much before, I was warned by the administrator.

In addition, the attitude of the administrator today is full of hostility, so I have blocked him.

If he is threatening me to talk too much again, please private message me.

 

另外，因為之前我跟你說得太多，被管理員警告。

加上今天管理員的態度充滿敵意，所以我已經把他屏蔽了。

如果他又在威脅我講太多，麻煩你私訊告訴我一下。

 

It is very uncomfortable for me to receive a hostile aura.

I would want to stay as far away from this kind of person as possible.

 

對我來說，收到充滿敵意的氣場是很不舒服的。

我會想要離這種人越遠越好。

 

 

If a person can understand the difference between the "innate state" and the "acquired state", and can often enter the "innate state", then this person will easily open his mind and receive the external aura easily.

When a person can often enter the innate state, this person will have some physiological changes, sensory changes, and some special states.

So when you are often in the innate state, you will have various changes, and you will also know whether others have entered this state.

There are many things that cannot be explained unless the other party reaches a certain point.

 

一個人如果能夠搞清楚「先天狀態」和「後天狀態」的差異，並且能夠經常進入「先天狀態」，那這個人就會很容易開啟心竅，並且能夠很輕易地接收到外界的氣場。

當一個人能夠經常進入先天狀態，這個人會有一些生理上的變化，感知上的變化，還有一些特殊的狀態。

所以當你經常處在先天狀態，你就會產生各種變化，你也會知道別人有沒有進入這種狀態。

有很多東西是說不清楚的，除非對方達到一定的點。
 

Edited January 30, 2023 by awaken

[Wilhelm]

4 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

In any event I am very happy to be understanding you better today.  I think everyone including the administrator is happy about this, so we are all asking you questions quickly so maybe that's a lot for you to do quickly, but if you get a chance could you talk more about what you called 'stubborn emptiness'?

 

You said this is the trap experienced practitioners of the transfer method fall into, and I've heard you use the term elsewhere but it didn't translate very clearly so I would like to know how you think about it.

[Taoist Texts]

9 minutes ago, awaken said:

Congenital Qi is produced when the yin reaches its extreme and creates a state of emptiness

ah all right. Thats why i asked. You are talking about pre-H kind of qi, but others in this discussion talk about post-H qi. Thats two totally different qi.  I dont think you guys  understand each other. The confusion still reigns;)

[awaken]

1 minute ago, Wilhelm said:

In any event I am very happy to be understanding you better today.  I think everyone including the administrator is happy about this, so we are all asking you questions quickly so maybe that's a lot for you to do quickly, but if you get a chance could you talk more about what you called 'stubborn emptiness'?

 

You said this is the trap experienced practitioners of the transfer method fall into, and I've heard you use the term elsewhere but it didn't translate very clearly so I would like to know how you think about it.

 

 

Stubborn emptiness means not letting go of the last thought.

The last thought of conscious existence.

It's hard to understand.

So we can only speak in another direction.

Those who can let go of the last thought will definitely enter the state of trance, and have the opportunity to produce the second stage of yangsheng internal scene in the moment of waking.

This is the true emptiness that produces the mysterious existence.

 

頑空定就是不放掉最後一念。

意識存在的最後一念。

這樣說是很難理解的。

所以只能以另外一個方向來講。

能夠放掉最後一念的人一定會進入意識恍惚的狀態，並且有機會在清醒的霎那產生二階段陽生內景。

這就是真正的虛空產生奧妙的存在。

真空生妙有。

[Wilhelm]

31 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

ah all right. Thats why i asked. You are talking about pre-H kind of qi, but others in this discussion talk about post-H qi. Thats two totally different qi.  I dont think you guys  understand each other. The confusion still reigns;)

I'm sorry you subjectively feel that way 😂🙏

 

All clear on post-heaven/pre-heaven (acquired/congenital) but there's another layer to this game...

Edited January 30, 2023 by Wilhelm

[awaken]

10 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

ah all right. Thats why i asked. You are talking about pre-H kind of qi, but others in this discussion talk about post-H qi. Thats two totally different qi.  I dont think you guys  understand each other. The confusion still reigns;)

 

I can't understand this paragraph.

Who am I to understand each other?

 

看不懂這段。

我跟誰要互相理解？

 

I understand a little bit.
"Innate state" and "acquired state".
The point I am talking about is that some people regard the "acquired state" as the "innate state".

 

我稍微有點看懂了。
「先天狀態」和「後天狀態」。
我說的重點是有些人把「後天狀態」當成「先天狀態」了。

 

Innate states have special phenomena of innate states.

For a gifted beginner, if he enters the innate state regularly, he will definitely produce the fine mandala light of the second stage of yangsheng.

Only the innate state of void can produce this fine light.

This fine light line is very clear, not just a pure shape.

Full of fine and intricate lines.

 

先天狀態有先天狀態的特殊現象。

對一個有天份的初學者來說，如果他經常進入先天狀態，他必定會產生二階段陽生的精細曼陀羅光。

只有先天狀態的虛空才能產生這種精細光。

這種精細光線條非常清楚，不是只有純粹的形狀。

充滿了精細複雜的線條。

Edited January 30, 2023 by awaken

[Taoist Texts]

3 minutes ago, awaken said:

Who am I to understand each other?

Other participants in this discussion.

本次讨论的其他参与者。

[awaken]

8 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Other participants in this discussion.

本次讨论的其他参与者。

 

Actually I'm only interested in a few people and you are one of them.

Because you are one of the few people who are watching classics.

 

其實我只對少數人感興趣，你是其中之一。

因為你是少數有在看經典的人。

 

And you have a great sense of humor.

 

而且你很有幽默感。

 

When a group of people leave a lot of messages, I will discard some people's messages and give priority to certain people's messages.

After all, although I type fast, I have to go through translation, and some words may not be clear, so I have to repeat and speak longer to be able to speak clearly.

And judging from some comments just now, misunderstandings are very easy to happen.

There is little point in spending time typing if there is no kindness to the other party's misunderstanding.

If misunderstanding is a kind of kindness, and it can be communicated, then communication is sometimes a kind of joy.

 

當一群人留言很多的時候，我會捨棄掉一些人的留言，優先看某些人的留言。

畢竟我打字雖然快，但是都要透過翻譯，有些話可能說不清楚，所以要反覆說長一點，才有辦法說得比較清楚。

而從剛才的一些留言看來，誤解是非常容易發生的。

如果對方的誤解沒有一種善意，那花費時間打字的意義就不大了。

如果誤解是一種善意，而且是可以溝通的，那溝通有時候就是一種樂趣。

Edited January 30, 2023 by awaken

[Mithras]

 

45 minutes ago, freeform said:

Im not sure I completely get what you’re asking…

 

But prayer and service to others is one of the best cultivation methods if you’re not able to cultivate at the level of the qi or use the mind to reach meditative absorption.

Meditation/any form of practice is ill. Prayer is pushing the line with communication while service to others is unavailable. Service to particle should be avoided. Poison cultivation is also out of picture as I shouldn’t be trying to effect my body.
 

Point can be generalized by saying ego is the main benefit rather than qi or mastery of body/mind

 

I could go in further detail but they’re incredibly private questions/sensitive information

 

Im not looking for established techniques and sensitivity isn’t really an issue with anything. Honestly something on the spot/anything to help with the quest to find a cultivation manual 

 

P.s a bounty board for people looking for cultivation manuals sounds like a fun idea

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Mithras

[awaken]

59 minutes ago, freeform said:

Could you try to explain a little more about it then?

 

You’ve mentioned the coloured lights that then form into a round shape… that’s the experience of the black liver… but what is the black liver actually?? It’s not Yuan Shen, right?

 

From what I understand it is the light of your Original Self (or your Soul… or the deeper aspect of Hun-Po) 

 

If you could explain Black Liver from your point of view, I think people would be able to understand you a little better.

 

The black liver is not Yuan Shen.

In fact, I have already said a lot about black liver.

The black liver is the light of the aura of the body, which is transformed by the Qi of the body.

But if you only have one kind of light, it must be black liver.

If you really want to understand what a black liver is, you can describe the light you see.

I remember you said that you have seen four lights.

 

烏肝不是元神。

其實我已經說過很多關於烏肝的描述。

烏肝是身體氣場的光，是由身體的氣轉化過去的。

但是如果你只有一種光，那肯定就是烏肝。

如果你真的想了解什麼是烏肝，你可以描述一下你所看到的光。

我記得你說過你看過四種光。

 

At the beginning, the black liver was only black and white, that is, light and darkness.

The more advanced black liver will have other colors.

The black liver is very similar to the Northern Lights, cloud-like.

Mandala light has fine and complex lines, appearing in Yang Sheng.

If you don't have the mandala light, then you should only have the black liver light.

Just different shapes of black liver lights.

The black liver light is the first light to appear.

It can appear very stable for a long time.

 

剛開始的烏肝只有黑色和白色，也就是亮光和黑暗。

比較進階的烏肝會有其他顏色。

烏肝非常像北極光，雲霧狀。

曼陀羅光有精細複雜的線條，出現在陽生。

如果你沒有曼陀羅光出現，那你應該只有烏肝光。

只是不同形狀的烏肝光。

烏肝光是最早出現的光。

可以非常穩定的長期性的出現。

 

 

[awaken]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

Great  

 

We agree on both of these points then.

 

In fact, this is still flawed.

If you fix your attention on one point, it is also a transfer method.

Because the attention at the beginning will move around, if you force the attention to be fixed at one point, it will also be problematic.

So whether you fix your attention on one point or you use your attention to try to influence the direction of the breath, there is a problem.

So attention is called "mercury" because it has the property of being very easy to move.

 

其實這樣說還是有缺陷的。

如果將注意力固定在一個點，那同樣是搬運法。

因為剛開始的注意力本來就會動來動去，如果強迫注意力固定在一個點，那同樣是有問題的。

所以不管是你把注意力固定在一個點，或者你使用注意力試圖去影響氣的方向，都是有問題的。

所以注意力會被稱為「汞」，是因為它具有非常容易移動的特性。

 

 

In fact, what Dan Dao practices is not Qi, but Shen. Qi is just a product of practicing Shen.

Therefore, the black liver is called the Shen of Yang, and the marrow of the rabbit is called the Shen of Yin.

It is because Shen in the state of black liver and rabbit marrow have different characteristics of yin and yang.

 

事實上丹道練的不是氣，而是神。氣只是練神的產物。

因此烏肝被稱為陽神，兔髓被稱為陰神。

就是因為在烏肝狀態和兔髓狀態時候的神具有陰陽不同的特性。

 

So Dan Dao is practicing the transformation of Shen, so you can't use your strength to use Shen to influence qi.

The so-called force here includes fixing Shen in one position.

 

所以丹道練的是神的轉化，因此不能施力去使用神影響氣。

這裡所謂的施力包含將神固定在一個位置。
 

But when Shen fix by itself, you cannot force Shen to continue to move.

 

但是當神自己要固定的時候，也不能去迫使神繼續移動。

 

All you can do is be aware of whether or not you are exerting extra force.

 

你所能做的就是覺知自己有沒有額外的施力。

 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by awaken

[dwai]

1 hour ago, freeform said:

But they differentiate not for the purpose of explaining the truth of the matter, but for helping to give context to the process of internal alchemy… That’s why it might seem a bit arbitrary to ‘seal the senses’ (which is not quite what it appears to mean in reality) - but it’s important for the alchemical transformation process.

 

I am pretty well versed in sealing the senses in the Daoist meditations I have been taught and per the classical yoga limb of pratyahara (sense-withdrawal). They are suitable for nirvikalpa samadhi and helpful for practitioners of certain mindsets but are not necessary for all.

[Wilhelm]

10 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

In fact, this is still flawed.

If you fix your attention on one point, it is also a transfer method.

Because the attention at the beginning will move around, if you force the attention to be fixed at one point, it will also be problematic.

So whether you fix your attention on one point or you use your attention to try to influence the direction of the breath, there is a problem.

So attention is called "mercury" because it has the property of being very easy to move.

Then what you are calling the transfer method my teacher calls using 'forceful intention' or just 'intention', with the recommended solution being to relax the intention until the Qi moves on its own accord.  

 

Freeform will have his own way of expressing it but I think it's not overstepping to say this is similar to his method. 

 

I look forward to reading more about how you practice Shen

Edited January 30, 2023 by Wilhelm

[awaken]

15 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Then what you are calling the transfer method my teacher calls using 'forceful intention' or just 'intention', with the recommended solution being to relax the intention until the Qi moves on its own accord.  

 

Freeform will have his own way of expressing it but I think it's not overstepping to say this is similar to his method.

 

That's half right.

Because qi is not just about movement, it can also turn into black liver light.

In alchemy, Qi is called water, and black liver light is called wood.

Water creates wood.

If the intention is really relaxed, water will not only produce wood, but fire will also produce metal.

Mental is rabbit marrow.

 

這樣算是說對了一半。

因為氣不是只有運行而已，氣還會變成烏肝光。

在丹道裡面，氣被稱為水，烏肝光被稱為木。

水會產生木。

如果意念真的放鬆，水不僅僅會產生木，火還會產生金。

金就是兔髓。

 

If the intention is truly relaxed, the second stage of yang birth (birth formation, the primary form of golden elixir) will also be produced.
If there is no phenomenon of pregnancy formation within one year, it means that there is a problem with the comprehension of consciousness.

 

如果真正做到了意念的放松，還會產生第二階段的陽生（結胎，金丹的初級型態）。
如果沒有在一年內產生結胎的現象，那就表示關於意識的領悟是有問題的。
 

The most common problem is not following the alternation of yin and yang.

 

而最常見的問題就是沒有遵循陰陽交替。

 

Are you sure that Freeform really understands the alternation of yin and yang?

 

你確定Freeform真的懂陰陽交替嗎？

 

Almost everyone who studies Taoism knows that the definition of "Tao" is "one yin and one yang".

As for what is "yin and yang", it depends on the book of changes.
This book must be read, so as not to misunderstand yin and yang.

 

幾乎學道家修煉的人都知道「道」的定義就是「一個陰一個陽」

至於什麼是「陰陽」，就要看周易參同契。
這本書一定要看，才不會誤解陰陽。

 

But here, it seems that few people know about Zhou Yi's participation in the contract, and few people know about Yin and Yang.

 

但是在這裡似乎沒什麼人知道周易參同契，也沒什麼人知道陰陽。

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantong_qi

Edited January 30, 2023 by awaken

[Wilhelm]

11 minutes ago, awaken said:

That's half right.

Because qi is not just about movement, it can also turn into black liver light.

In alchemy, Qi is called water, and black liver light is called wood.

Water creates wood.

If the intention is really relaxed, water will not only produce wood, but fire will also produce metal.

Mental is rabbit marrow.

Is this also sometimes called the conversion of Qi to Shen?

Quote

 

The most common problem is not following the alternation of yin and yang.

 

Are you sure that Freeform really understands the alternation of yin and yang?

I don't know!  He is a kind person who I believe to be a skilled practitioner, and I look forward to reading his answer.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Wilhelm

[awaken]

18 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Then what you are calling the transfer method my teacher calls using 'forceful intention' or just 'intention', with the recommended solution being to relax the intention until the Qi moves on its own accord.  

 

Freeform will have his own way of expressing it but I think it's not overstepping to say this is similar to his method. 

 

I look forward to reading more about how you practice Shen

 

The transformation of  Shen must go through yin and yang. If one don't understand yin and yang, he won't be able to practice Shen.

 

If you want to understand yin and yang, you must read Can Tong Qi.

Just like if you want to understand Arhats, you need to read the Agama Sutra.

 

如果要了解陰陽，一定要看過參同契。

就跟你要了解阿羅漢，你就要看阿含經一樣。

[awaken]

7 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Is this also sometimes called the conversion of Qi to Shen?

I don't know!  He is a kind and dedicated practitioner, and I look forward to reading his answer.

 

Yes.

 

Cultivation should not be limited to Qi training.

 

修煉本來就不能只有練氣。

 

If one only stay in Qi training, then he must have a big misunderstanding of Shen.

 

Because of misunderstanding, there will be no automatic transformation.

 

如果只有停留在練氣，那一定是對神有很大的誤解。
因為有了誤解，才不會產生自動轉化的現象。

 

Correct cultivation will naturally transform from qi to Shen, and it is impossible to stay in the state of qi all the time.

 

正確的修煉一定會自然從氣轉化為神，不可能一直停留在氣的狀態。

 

 

If a person's cultivation is to separate Qi training and Shen training using two different techniques, then there will be a big problem.

Because practicing qi and practicing Shen are only different in state, but the inner operation is the same.

 

如果一個人的修煉是把練氣和練神用兩種不同的技術分開，那這樣問題就很大了。

因為練氣和練神只是狀態不同，但是內心的運作是相同的。

Edited January 30, 2023 by awaken

[freeform]

44 minutes ago, awaken said:

If you really want to understand what a black liver is, you can describe the light you see.

I remember you said that you have seen four lights.

1 - white light like snow envelops the inner vision from around the sides… fills the vision. After, when I open my eyes all I can see is white for several hours. Slowly the white receded and it was like looking through fog.

 

2 - I absorb into the body, it starts to disappear, all that is left is a field of qi… over time as I absorb into the qi field, it disappears and various colour lights start… depending what I’ve been working on.

 

3 - very bright flashing light at the centre of inner vision that stabilises into a pure white light that over time condensed into a disk.

 

4 - a light that only appears outside of practice like a lightning flash - usually flashes 3 times.

 

Now thinking about it there are a few others - but doesn’t matter too much  

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by freeform

[liminal_luke]

12 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Dig the channel and the water will flow of its own accord…

 

Instead of ‘carrying’ the water in your hands like a low-level schmo  

 

 

I feel like I need to go to a 12 step group: Hi, my name is Luke and I practice the transfer method.

 

Years ago Joe Blast shared a method of working with the MCO that involved light focus on the various points of the orbit combined with opening and closing the various dan tiens in a particular order.  I haven't worked with it but it's long been on my radar.  You don't move the energy along the orbit with your mind, instead letting the opening and closing of the dan tiens ignite the process.  

 

In your view, is this a transfer method practice mistake or more along the lines of "digging the channel"?  Thanks!

Edited January 30, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Wilhelm]

11 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

I feel like I need to go to a 12 step group: Hi, my name is Luke and I practice the transfer method.

 

Years ago Joe Blast shared a method of working with the MCO that involved light focus on the various points of the orbit combined with opening and closing the various dan tiens in a particular order.  I haven't worked with it but it's long been on my radar.  You don't move the energy along the orbit with your mind, instead letting the opening and closing of the dan tiens ignite the process.  

 

In your view, is this a transfer method practice mistake or more along the lines of "digging the channel"?  Thanks!

Pretty much any exercise where there's something to 'do' would fit the bill.

[dwai]

Just now, Wilhelm said:

Pretty much any exercise where there's something to 'do' would fit the bill.

Interestingly enough, in the system I practice, we use the "indirect method."

There is no direct movement of the qi inside the body - but moving qi outside, which moves the qi inside. For example, generating a qi ball and moving it will result in qi moving through the MCO.  Of course, the "direct method" is when people use their mind to move the qi through the MCO (or wherever). 

[dwai]

28 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I feel like I need to go to a 12 step group: Hi, my name is Luke and I practice the transfer method.

 

The power of the transfer method is too strong? Do you have a "carry" license?

[freeform]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

Years ago Joe Blast shared a method of working with the MCO that involved light focus on the various points of the orbit combined with opening and closing the various dan tiens in a particular order.  I haven't worked with it but it's long been on my radar.  You don't move the energy along the orbit with your mind, instead letting the opening and closing of the dan tiens ignite the process.  

 

In your view, is this a transfer method practice mistake or more along the lines of "digging the channel"?  Thanks!

Essentially using your mind in a focused, contrived or restricted way is ‘transfer method’… so focusing on points along the line would count as that. I’m not sure what’s meant by opening and closing the Dantiens means specifically, but that could certainly be contrived if it uses the mind to do it.

 

I think there’s a time and a place for that actually - but with the more subtle stuff like MCO, it’s better to ‘dig the channel’… Qi is sensitive and will rebel as soon as you try to contrive its movement… and contrivance also blocks access to various deeper aspects of qi (such as ‘cultivated qi’ or ‘preheaven qi’… or ‘Ling qi’ etc)… the wrong aspect of consciousness is driving the bus!

 

For instance many internal methods will have various standing and moving forms… your awareness is simply allowed to absorb into the body - and it’s the maintenance of correct mental and physical principles when standing that does the work (such as allowing the crown to be suspended as the rest of the body sort of hangs off it… and releasing the sternum… setting the shoulders, sinking into the kwa… stable, relaxed, attentive awareness etc)… all of these physical principles set up lines of internal tension (as long as muscles can relax) that correspond to various channels… like a taught guitar string that can carry a vibration in just the right tone… and along with the mental principles together they also allow the qi to sink while increasing the generation of Yang qi… (qi sinks - downward movement… yang qi is generated - upward movement) this sets up the initial ‘channel’ for the microcosmic orbit and the initial movement of qi… (though this isn’t the ‘real’ alchemical MCO yet… it’s just qi movement…)

 

There are also methods that use the hands to shape the qi… 
 

We never give the qi direction with the mind - with the mind we only ‘listen’ (absorbed, stable, relaxed awareness) and ‘release’ (Sung) while holding the correct posture (or doing the correct movements) - and this ‘digs the channels’ by reshaping the body - which in turn reshapes the channels for the ‘water’ to run down.
 

In fact the hardest and most crucial thing is training the mind not to interfere… constantly releasing even the tiniest level of contrivance (for example wanting to feel some effect is a sort of contrivance at the back of the mind)… it’s a never ending, almost impossible task  

 

Awaken wouldn’t agree with this methodology I imagine - she’s more keen on zifagong (spontaneous movement) - but in my tradition we use both ‘digging the channels’ and allowing the qi to refine and self-organise through spontaneous movement. One is better for ‘building’ and ordering - the other is better for mobilising, releasing and refining.

[liminal_luke]

Thanks, @freeform!  Fascinating and very clear.  I often want to feel various effects in my practice but like the idea of allowing a deeper part of me to steer the ship, so to speak.