On the nature and utility of 'goal posts' in meditative and energetic practice

[C T]

24 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

well i drink only on weekends and i am a master of my domain.  I think we are still  very much on topic. So please could you dwell a little bit on   how an alcoholic sex fiend can be a buddhist or a taoist, let alone some kind of a head honcho in the teaching? Thanks;)

 

He was a good teacher until he wasn't. Dont such examples exist in all traditions? For every Trungpa, there are scores of upright, untainted Tibetan teachers, but of course, being you, you would conveniently bash the whole tradition based on your own set of biases and critique formed from what little you know gleaned from 3rd party sources. Yet you will not exact the same discrimination to  the many sullied masters and teachers in your own little perfect perception of Taoism. 

 

Swell, ain't it?

[iinatti]

22 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

For a person to call himself an Arhat, he must be able to achieve the definition in the Buddhist scriptures, which is to escape from birth and death in practice.

 

If one were an arhat, would he/she publically declare him/herself to be so, on YouTube or otherwise?  

 

Would an arhat ever say to him/herself something such as "I have attained the four fruits and have therefore obtained the status of an arhat?

 

Can one who desires to attain the level of an arhat be one?

 

Would an arhat even know him/herself to be an arhat?

[awaken]

8 minutes ago, Magister Ludi said:

 

If one were an arhat, would he/she publically declare him/herself to be so, on YouTube or otherwise?  

 

Would an arhat ever say to him/herself something such as "I have attained the four fruits and have therefore obtained the status of an arhat?

 

Can one who desires to attain the level of an arhat be one?

 

Would an arhat even know him/herself to be an arhat?

 

What you said is not the point.
We need to see whether there is arising and ceasing during his practice, whether he is free from arising and ceasing, and whether he has the characteristics I mentioned.
So you see it's the person who claims to be like that. If you show me his article, please show me his description of samadhi, so that I can judge.

 

你說的那些不是重點吧。
我們要看他的練習過程中有沒有生滅，有沒有脫離生滅，有沒有我說的那些特徵。
所以你看是那個人這樣自稱的人。你把他的文章給我看，要關於他描述三摩地的部分給我看，這樣我才有辦法判斷。

 

The judgment of Arhatship depends on the degree of his samadhi.

 

阿羅漢果的判斷是取決於他的三摩地程度。
 

Edited January 26, 2023 by awaken

[Taoist Texts]

5 minutes ago, C T said:

Yet you will not exact the same discrimination to  the many sullied masters and teachers in your own little perfect perception of Taoism.

oh i will,  lets name them and shame them

7 minutes ago, C T said:

For every Trungpa, there are scores of upright, untainted Tibetan teachers, but of course, being you, you would conveniently bash the whole tradition

yes but see whats interesting. the tradition did not disown him. in fact the tradition still venerates him right? does not that taint the tradition? And of course i am an outsider and will stand corrected if the facts are different and the conclusion is illogical.

[iinatti]

3 minutes ago, awaken said:

 

What you said is not the point.
We need to see whether there is arising and ceasing during his practice, whether he is free from arising and ceasing, and whether he has the characteristics I mentioned.
So you see it's the person who claims to be like that. If you show me his article, please show me his description of samadhi, so that I can judge.

 

One might be able to make such judgements of others, but can one make such claims for one's self? 

[awaken]

5 minutes ago, Magister Ludi said:

 

One might be able to make such judgements of others, but can one make such claims for one's self? 

 

If he has really achieved something, there is no problem with him saying so. At most it makes you sound unhappy.
If he hadn't achieved it, he would be lying if he said so. Of course lying is out of the question. This is tantamount to fraud.
So the key point still depends on the degree of his samadhi. You should post his article to me.

 

他如果真的成就了，他這樣說是沒有問題的。頂多是讓你聽起來不高興而已。
如果他沒有成就，他這樣說就是說謊。說謊當然是不行的。這等於是詐欺行為了。
所以重點還是要看他的三摩地的程度。你還是把他的文章貼給我看一下吧。

 

In my experience, there should be a 99.9 percent chance he's a liar.
But before reading his article on samadhi, we cannot deny that 0.1% possibility.

 

以我的經驗來說，他應該有百分之九十九點九的機會是騙子。
但是在沒有看到他的三摩地文章之前，我們不能否定那個百分之零點一的可能性。

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by awaken

[C T]

15 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

oh i will,  lets name them and shame them

yes but see whats interesting. the tradition did not disown him. in fact the tradition still venerates him right? does not that taint the tradition? And of course i am an outsider and will stand corrected if the facts are different and the conclusion is illogical.

 

I doubt you will accept correction because its quite apparent how concretized your biased view about Tibetan Buddhism has gotten. Sadly, its not even a view garnered from any objectivity whatsoever. Your open admission of willingness to change your mind, I think, is said just to feel good, nothing more. 

 

Where I live there was a reputable Taoist priest with a huge following and people can't wait to be accepted as patrons at his temple. His popularity earned him massive amounts of donation, and some of the money was channelled into building a boys hostel to house kids from rural towns coming for better education opportunities in the city. Nobody could imagine this repository was to later become his den of lust and sodomy. 

 

Per your (faulty) logic, there must be something very wrong with Taoism... but I think mature thinkers won't make the mistake of dissing the tradition/path/religion in the same way you've chosen to apply to faulting Tibetan Buddhism based on the faults of a few. 

 

Just to be clear, there are lots of bad apples in Tibetan Buddhism. But it's a mistake to denigrate the whole tradition just based off the failings of the bad ones and ignore the works of the reputable ones. I think people (like you) do it because it's convenient, and it feeds into your confirmation biases neatly. That's okay too. 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, C T said:

Per your (faulty) logic, there must be something very wrong with Taoism.

Exactly. Of course there is. As is with Buddhism and with any other congregation. And their single crucial fault  is the delusion  of shifting the goalposts. Like i said we are very much on the topic. The very first goalpost in any teaching is to be a reasonable sane decent person. The moment we  delude ourselves and say a teacher can be crazy, an addict, a seminar-peddler - yet have attainments  then  we deny the very first goalpost. Naturally the  rest of the goalposts go out of the window. 

[freeform]

38 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

The very first goalpost in any teaching is to be a reasonable sane decent person. The moment we  delude ourselves and say a teacher can be crazy, an addict, a seminar-peddler

I was happily nodding along in agreement - until I came to ‘seminar peddler’ 😂

 

I guess talking to people for money is tantamount to rape and abuse now…

 

What about writing to people for money? I think it’s got to be worse, no? - it’s recorded down - so it’s infinitely scalable… abuse on a world scale vs seminar room scale.  

 

PS - I didn’t know Trungpa is still venerated! How do you know that he is?

Edited January 26, 2023 by freeform

[Barnaby]

I answered "other" because I don't consider any of this stuff to have the slightest importance for my daily practice.

 

For me right now, progress is much more related to loosening the bonds of attachment and ego consciousness, and transforming the way I interact with those around me.

 

[Barnaby]

4 minutes ago, freeform said:

What about writing to people for money? I think it’s got to be worse, no? - it’s recorded down - so it’s infinitely scalable…

 

Video and Zoom... Infinitely scalable too. Blame the Internet 

[Taoist Texts]

19 minutes ago, freeform said:

guess talking to people for money is tantamount to rape and abuse now…What about writing to people for money? I think it’s got to be worse, no

Yes it could be worse. But the issue is not the money. The issue is the goods, the subject matter of the talking and writing. The issue is what exactly we sell: is it good or is it evil.

30 minutes ago, freeform said:

PS - I didn’t know Trungpa is still venerated!

How do you know that he is?

I did not know who he was until today;).

From the fountainhead of all knowledge of course

Quote

 

Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche is regarded as the first in this lineage of Sakyongs, and as such he is referred to as the "Druk Sakyong", or "Dragon Earth-Protector".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakyong_Mipham

 

heh, like father like son. its a family biz

[freeform]

25 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

Video and Zoom... Infinitely scalable too. Blame the Internet 

Yeah - I’m personally not anti seminars in person or on zoom.

I mean it’s not exactly how I would suggest to go about learning cultivation - but so what. It can still be helpful for some.
 

I’m just curious why in TT’s view seminar peddlers are on the same level as Trungpa - (who was, by all accounts an abusive alcoholic and a rapist - having ruined many lives and caused a number suicides…)

 

I could imagine high level Yogis and Brahmins during the historical Buddha’s lifetime calling him a seminar peddler as he gave his Dharma talks...

[freeform]

3 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

From the fountainhead of all knowledge of course

How did I not work that out ahead of time!

[Barnaby]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

I could imagine high level Yogis and Brahmins during the historical Buddha’s lifetime calling him a seminar peddler as he gave his Dharma talks...

 

I didn't know he charged for them... 

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

But the issue is not the money. The issue is the goods, the subject matter of the talking and writing. The issue is what exactly we sell: is it good or is it evil.

People go to concerts, operas, burlesque shows, standup comedy etc etc.

 

Is it good or evil?
 

I mean why even care?

[Taoist Texts]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

Is it good or evil?

depends on the subject matter

3 minutes ago, freeform said:

I mean why even care?

same reason we care about any other thing: caring is fun.

[Barnaby]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

I mean why even care?

 

We're getting way off topic, and it's not my intention to tar everyone with the same brush. 

 

But I do think there's something evil about manipulating, exploiting and peverting the natural spiritual yearning of manifested beings for material gain. 

[freeform]

1 minute ago, Barnaby said:

 

I didn't know he charged for them... 

 

We don’t know whether he did or not… I’d imagine he didn’t. 
 

But I suspect in that day and age people would bring what they could as gifts and donations…

 

I wonder how such things would work nowadays in the western world. I imagine if he, or his entourage didn’t ask for payment or donations, his message wouldn’t get far…

[Barnaby]

1 minute ago, freeform said:

But I suspect in that day and age people would bring what they could as gifts and donations…

 

Yep, of course.

 

1 minute ago, freeform said:

I imagine if he, or his entourage didn’t ask for payment or donations, his message wouldn’t get far…

 

Or maybe it would end up getting exactly to those who needed to hear it  

[freeform]

5 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

But I do think there's something evil about manipulating, exploiting and peverting the natural spiritual yearning of manifested beings for material gain. 

I think that’s probably one of the worst things, yeah.

 

It’s not just material gain either… there are plenty that give teachings for free but exploit the spiritual yearning for: a sense of power or control (like the lady that tells her followers to commit suicide - Teal Swan is her name, just remembered)… or sex and adoration (like that ‘Buddhafield’ guy) or many other such base instincts.

Edited January 26, 2023 by freeform

[freeform]

2 minutes ago, freeform said:

I think that’s probably one of the worst things, yeah.

 

I should add - if the main aim of teaching is to manipulate people for the satisfaction of one’s base desires (in whatever form) - then yes that’s probably as close to ‘evil’ as anything.

 

However if the main aim is a genuine attempt to pass on teachings and do what one can to help the person achieve these things - then asking for money (whether donations or a set price) is absolutely beside the point.

[freeform]

11 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

Or maybe it would end up getting exactly to those who needed to hear it  

Well, he’s no Buddha, but I’m friends with a gifted and attained monk who was meditating to a high level from a very young age - he tried this…

 

He came to Switzerland with a group of monks, was asked to stay and teach - so he did, all on a donation basis (that’s all he knew).

 

Even though he got plenty of donations, after paying various costs and fees he was saddled with extreme debt within 3 months and had to ask his friends to pay for his ticket back to Burma.

 

Western life is not suited to spiritual cultivation… you either adapt skilfully or you fall through the cracks (or you escape back to a country that has spiritual tradition baked into the culture )

[C T]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Exactly. Of course there is. As is with Buddhism and with any other congregation. And their single crucial fault  is the delusion  of shifting the goalposts. Like i said we are very much on the topic. The very first goalpost in any teaching is to be a reasonable sane decent person. The moment we  delude ourselves and say a teacher can be crazy, an addict, a seminar-peddler - yet have attainments  then  we deny the very first goalpost. Naturally the  rest of the goalposts go out of the window. 

This I'm in complete agreement. 

So please, as a reasonable, sane, decent practitioner, stop bashing whole traditions by scrutinizing individuals' shortcomings. 

[Indiken]

18 minutes ago, freeform said:

Western life is not suited to spiritual cultivation… you either adapt skilfully or you fall through the cracks (or you escape back to a country that has spiritual tradition baked into the culture )

 

Christianity is not spiritual.