On the nature and utility of 'goal posts' in meditative and energetic practice

[Wilhelm]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

Double post sry

Edited January 26, 2023 by Wilhelm

[freeform]

23 minutes ago, Indiken said:

 

Christianity is not spiritual.

I think it can be - but more often than not it’s political more than spiritual…

 

Interestingly - many of the pastors flying on their private jets and sailing around on their private yachts don’t charge - but encourage donations instead…

 

(sorry @Wilhelm - I can never stay on topic for long!!)

[freeform]

12 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Any of us who've read your PPD know you feel this way (as is your right - I can only assume it's based off your own experience), but it's pretty strange to say you arrived at these conclusions logically...

I know that when I have a disproportionate reaction like this, it suggests to me that there’s an inner disharmony or contraction around some unresolved inner conflict…

[Master Logray]

I think the situation is not static.  A teacher could gather his power in early stage, abuse it later and revert back to normal if he repent (or feel the situation is not right).   At a particular moment, the teacher can be any one of the above.  It is always wise to be paying some attention, whoever they are.

[Wilhelm]

22 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

 

7 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

 

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

Edit: Off topic - will put on PPD

Edited January 26, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Wilhelm]

14 minutes ago, freeform said:

I know that when I have a disproportionate reaction like this, it suggests to me that there’s an inner disharmony or contraction around some unresolved inner conflict…

This is me at the moment.  If only 'Sit and Forget' were a targeted process - I'd love to forget logging on this morning! 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Indiken]

8 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

This is me at the moment.  If only 'Sit and Forget' were a controllable process 

 

It will continue until you start to think and decide which of the side of conflict to choose.

[Barnaby]

41 minutes ago, Indiken said:

Christianity is not spiritual.

 

With all due respect, that statement is as absurd as saying that Tibetan lamas are alcoholics and rapists.

 

Educate yourself on pre-Synod of Whitby Christianity in the British Isles and the Celtic saints.

 

Or Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

 

Or Elise Rivet, who volunteered to take the place of a fellow prisoner in the gas chamber at Ravensbruck, because the other prisoner was a mother with children.

[Wilhelm]

1 minute ago, Indiken said:

 

It will continue until you start to think and decide which of the side of conflict to choose.

🎵 If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice 🎵

[Indiken]

Just now, Barnaby said:

 

With all due respect, that statement is as absurd as saying that Tibetan lamas are alcoholics and rapists.

 

Educate yourself on pre-Synod of Whitby Christianity in the British Isles and the Celtic saints.

 

Or Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

 

Or Elise Rivet, who volunteered to take the place of a fellow prisoner in the gas chamber at Ravensbruck, because the other prisoner was a mother with children.

 

Sorry, I think that was sarcasm to freeform statement.

[Barnaby]

24 minutes ago, freeform said:

more often than not it’s political more than spiritual…

 

Let's loose the broad brush, guys... 

 

What do you know about the motivations of millions of ground-level practitioners?

[Indiken]

1 minute ago, Wilhelm said:

🎵 If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice 🎵

 

Lack of knowledge to decide which is better.

[Barnaby]

2 minutes ago, Indiken said:

Sorry, I think that was sarcasm to freeform statement.

 

Cool, misread the sarcasm...

[Wilhelm]

18 minutes ago, Indiken said:

Lack of knowledge to decide which is better.

Sorry, I don't know what we're talking about.  Let me sit on my ass for a couple hours and get back to you

Edited January 26, 2023 by Wilhelm

[awaken]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chögyam_Trungpa

 

So you guys were talking about this guy.
I haven't studied this person, but just read his information and one of his books.
This person's level is not high, so it's not surprising that he would do those things.
When we regard the magic stick as a master, and then question why the master behaves so absurdly, does it make sense?
He is just a "magic stick".
The English translation of "God Stick" is very strangely translated, which means a person who uses theology as a fraudulent means to make money.

 

原來你們在討論這個人。
我沒研究過這個人，剛才看了一下他的資料，和他的其中一本書。
這個人的程度不高，所以他會做出那些事情也不意外。
當我們把神棍當成大師，然後才質疑這個大師為什麼行為這麼荒謬，這樣有意義嗎？
他就是一個「神棍」而已。
英文翻譯「神棍」翻譯得很奇怪，意思就是以神學為詐欺手段而賺錢的人。

 

I just read the second book written by this person. This person is really low level. I really can't understand why he became a master in the western world.
I would define him as a type of false master.
He completely distorted the meaning of Samadhi.

After I read his article, I realized why the Buddhist articles in daobums are so distorted. It turned out that it was influenced by such a master.
What a pity.
You really have to let this man go, he is misleading too much.
It is better for you to directly read the Buddhist scriptures.

 

我剛才又看了這個人寫的第二本書，這個人真的程度很低，我實在無法理解他為什麼在西方世界變成一個大師。
我會把他定義成假大師這一類的人。
他完全扭曲了禪定的意思。

我看了他的文章之後，才知道為什麼在daobums的佛教文章會這麼扭曲，原來是受了這樣的大師的影響。
真是太遺憾了。
你們真的要放掉這個人，他誤導太多了。
你們還是直接看佛經比較好。

 

This person's description of the ten bodhisattvas is simply nonsense.
Especially the eighth place, which is clearly described in many scriptures, but he actually said it in another way, which has nothing to do with the scriptures, which is really inconceivable.
Don't you all read Buddhist scriptures?
Does no one know he's talking nonsense?

Such a person who knows nothing about meditation is actually teaching Vajrayana?
It's incredible.

 

這個人對於菩薩十地的描述簡直是胡說一通。
特別是第八地，在許多經典都有很明確的描述，結果他竟然說成另外一種說法，完全跟經典無關的說法，真是不可思議。
難道大家都不看佛經的嗎？
沒有人知道他在胡說八道嗎？

這樣一個對禪定完全不懂的人竟然在教金剛乘？
真是不可思議。

 

That's why I said earlier that to judge whether a person has really achieved success in cultivation, one must look at his meditation ability. If we have practiced to a certain level, we can usually see his level by reading a person's explanation of meditation.
Of course, our own level of meditation must be higher than that of this person before we can tell.
So I have to work hard to cultivate, so that I can distinguish between true and false.

 

所以我前面才說，要判斷一個人是否真的在修煉上有成就，就要從他的禪定能力看起。如果我們自己練到一定的程度，去看一個人對於禪定的解釋，通常就能看出他的程度了。
當然我們自己的禪定程度，要高於這個人的程度，我們才能看得出來。
所以自己要努力修煉，才有辦法分辨真假。

 

You really don't need to read any more of this man's books.
Too much misleading in it.
Also don't suggest that your friends read this person's book.
He may have contributed to the transmission of Buddhism to the Western world. But the Buddhism he taught was a very distorted Buddhism.

 

你們真的不需要再看這個人的書了。
太多的誤導在裡面。
也不要建議你的朋友讀這個人的書。
他可能對於佛教傳遞到西方世界是有貢獻的。但是他傳遞的佛教卻是非常扭曲的佛教。

 

 

I saw this guy again talking about the relationship between Vajrayana and devotion.
I must be very honest and say that Vajrayana has nothing to do with devotion.
Only the fake Vajrayana, that is, the Vajrayana that uses the method of visualization, has anything to do with devotion.
Because that is a false method, you need to brainwash yourself, and you need to believe in the guru, so that you can foolishly brainwash yourself.

 

我又看到這個人談論到金剛乘和虔誠的關係。
我必須很誠實的說，金剛乘和虔誠一點關係都沒有。
只有假的金剛乘，也就是用觀想的方法的金剛乘，才跟虔誠有關係。
因為那是假的方法，所以需要自我洗腦，需要相信上師，才有辦法愚蠢的自我洗腦。

 

I saw him talk about mandalas again.
I really don't know what to say, almost everything he said is wrong.
Everything is wrong except the noun itself.

 

我又看到他講了曼陀羅。
實在不知道說什麼才好，他說的幾乎全部都是錯的。
除了名詞本身之外，內容全部是錯的。

Edited January 26, 2023 by awaken

[Taoist Texts]

36 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Feelings are becoming equated with logic

I did not use the word feeling because it is vague. I dont quite understand how a sensory input to my body which i take you mean by  'feeling'  - can be equated with logic. Lets say  1. i touch a brick and 2. make a logical conclusion that it exists. I am not sure how 1. and 2. can be equated in my mind

50 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I.e. if something 'feels' wrong

i think now you use feeling in a sense of a groundless emotion. I understand what you say but i dont have those, it was a part of my practice to get rid of them.

 

58 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

But it's based on feeling

what it? i always double check to see that all my statements are based on logic.

59 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I sure woke up on the wrong side

nah its not your fault. its my directness which is to blame. 

[Barnaby]

49 minutes ago, awaken said:

This person's level is not high, so it's not surprising that he would do those things.

 

I don't really know what other things he did, but the story of his escape from Tibet is extraordinary.

 

I'm not condoning anything. But that sort of ordeal can leave a lot of scars.

[awaken]

17 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

I don't really know what other things he did, but the story of his escape from Tibet is extraordinary.

 

I'm not condoning anything. But that sort of ordeal can leave a lot of scars.

 

Whether a person can become a qualified master is absolutely related to his Samadhi ability.
It has nothing to do with his life experience.
He may be a person with a wonderful life and stories, but it is also a fact that he passed on the distorted Dharma.

 

一個人能否成為合格的上師跟他的禪定能力有絕對的關係。
跟他的人生經歷應該關係不大。
他可以是一個活得很精彩很有故事的人，但是他傳遞了扭曲的佛法也是一個事實。

 

He also founded schools to mislead more people.

 

他還成立了學校，誤導更多的人。

 

Seeing such a person usually gives me a goal to strive for and gives me more energy to write more books.

 

看到這樣的人，通常會給我一個奮鬥的目標，讓我有更多的力氣寫出更多的書。

 

 

Many people here should be misled by him, because the dualism topic you discussed before is as distorted as he said.

 

這裡應該很多人受到他的誤導，因為之前你們討論的二元論主題，就跟他說的一樣的扭曲。

 

Dualism, emptiness, Vajrayana, everything he said is very problematic, because his Samadhi ability is too poor, so he distorts all the content.

 

二元論，空性，金剛乘，他所說的都是非常有問題的，因為他的禪定太差，所以他扭曲了所有的內容。

Edited January 26, 2023 by awaken

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

I did not use the word feeling because it is vague. I dont quite understand how a sensory input to my body which i take you mean by  'feeling'  - can be equated with logic. Lets say  1. i touch a brick and 2. make a logical conclusion that it exists. I am not sure how 1. and 2. can be equated in my mind

i think now you use feeling in a sense of a groundless emotion. I understand what you say but i dont have those, it was a part of my practice to get rid of them.

 

what it? i always double check to see that all my statements are based on logic.

nah its not your fault. its my directness which is to blame. 

 

I was also too direct.  I'd like to talk about this, but I'll move it to your PPD

Edited January 26, 2023 by Wilhelm

[Wilhelm]

1 hour ago, awaken said:

 

Whether a person can become a qualified master is absolutely related to his Samadhi ability.
It has nothing to do with his life experience.
He may be a person with a wonderful life and stories, but it is also a fact that he passed on the distorted Dharma.

 

一個人能否成為合格的上師跟他的禪定能力有絕對的關係。
跟他的人生經歷應該關係不大。
他可以是一個活得很精彩很有故事的人，但是他傳遞了扭曲的佛法也是一個事實。

 

He also founded schools to mislead more people.

 

他還成立了學校，誤導更多的人。

 

Seeing such a person usually gives me a goal to strive for and gives me more energy to write more books.

 

看到這樣的人，通常會給我一個奮鬥的目標，讓我有更多的力氣寫出更多的書。

 

 

Many people here should be misled by him, because the dualism topic you discussed before is as distorted as he said.

 

這裡應該很多人受到他的誤導，因為之前你們討論的二元論主題，就跟他說的一樣的扭曲。

 

Dualism, emptiness, Vajrayana, everything he said is very problematic, because his Samadhi ability is too poor, so he distorts all the content.

 

二元論，空性，金剛乘，他所說的都是非常有問題的，因為他的禪定太差，所以他扭曲了所有的內容。

I am not fond of Mr. Trungpa or his legacy either, but I also have two questions about your analysis.

 

How can someone's ability in Samadhi be discerned without interacting with them?

 

Also, if life experience has nothing to do with qualifications - how is one supposed to perfect their Sila (morality training, as part of the Threefold Training)?

 

Could not a teacher skilled in Samadhi but devoid of Sila be equally as dangerous?

 

To be clear - I'm speaking in generalities and don't know anything about Mr. Trungpa other than the story of his life and the name of the school he left behind.

Edited January 26, 2023 by Wilhelm

[liminal_luke]

3 hours ago, Indiken said:

 

Christianity is not spiritual.

 

When I lived in Zacatecas, Mexico I used to go for coffee every morning at the local Starbucks.  The town was overrun with missionaries and prostelitizers of all stripes who, like me, enjoyed bad coffee.  I don't like to talk about God early in the morning so I made a personal pact not to.  My resolve was soon challenged by some niced dressed Jehovah Witness ladies.  I explained to them that I had a policy of not talking about spiritual matters in Starbucks and they had the perfect comeback: oh, the Bible isn't spiritual.

Edited January 26, 2023 by liminal_luke

[awaken]

54 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I am not fond of Mr. Trungpa or his legacy either, but I also have two questions about your analysis.

 

How can someone's ability in Samadhi be discerned without interacting with them?

 

Also, if life experience has nothing to do with qualifications - how is one supposed to perfect their Sila (morality training, as part of the Threefold Training)?

 

Could not a teacher skilled in Samadhi but devoid of Sila be equally as dangerous?

 

To be clear - I'm speaking in generalities and don't know anything about Mr. Trungpa other than the story of his life and the name of the school he left behind.

 

Of course you can't see it, because your level is too low.

But I can see it.

If you ask me how to tell, I just read his book.

If you want to know why, you have to level up yourself.

It is impossible for you not to improve your own level, but want to be opportunistic to see it.

That’s how it is in cultivation. If your level is too low, you just don’t understand anything.

Regarding precepts, a person who practices meditation every day, like me, my life is very boring, eating, working, practicing, sleeping, people like me who live a boring life, don’t need any precepts.

 

你當然看不出來，因為你程度太差。

但是我可以看得出來。

如果你問我怎麼看得出來，我就是看他的書而已。

如果你想要看得出來，你就要提升你自己的程度。

你不可能不提升自己的程度，而想要投機取巧去看得出來。

修煉就是這樣，你程度太差，你就是什麼都搞不懂。

關於戒律，一個天天在練禪定的人，像我這樣的人，我的生活是非常無聊的，吃飯，工作，練功，睡覺，像我這樣生活無聊的人，不太需要什麼戒律。

 

Trungpa is not the only one who does not practice well enough to be called a master. There are many such people.

The only way is to improve your level.

There are no shortcuts.

 

練得不好而被稱為大師的也不是只有創巴一個人，這樣的人很多。

唯一的辦法就是提升自己的程度。

沒有任何捷徑可言。

 

Just like your subject, if you attain Arhatship, will you still ask this question?

就像你這個主題，如果你達到阿羅漢，你還會問這個問題嗎？

Edited January 26, 2023 by awaken

[Wilhelm]

27 minutes ago, awaken said:

Of course you can't see it, because your level is too low.

But I can see it.

If you ask me how to tell, I just read his book.

If you want to know why, you have to level up yourself.

It is impossible for you not to improve your own level, but want to be opportunistic to see it.

That’s how it is in cultivation. If your level is too low, you just don’t understand anything.

Regarding precepts, a person who practices meditation every day, like me, my life is very boring, eating, working, practicing, sleeping, people like me who live a boring life, don’t need any precepts.

Thank you for your answer.  I am not sure if it was a poor translation, but it reads to me as if you are saying

 

"Once you attain a certain level of skill, you can determine someone else's strength in concentration just by reading the words they write - or read what is written about them." (Because I am assuming you read ABOUT Trungpa as opposed to reading his book)

 

To me this seems a ridiculous proposition, but it could simply be that my level is too low to understand why.  Can you really discern the concentration abilities of everyone who's writing you read on the internet?  If I had shown you some text created by artificial intelligence, would you be able to discern its concentration abilities as well?

 

And without precepts, or Sila training, how can you say you're pursuing the Buddha's Threefold Training of Sila, Samadhi, and Prajna.  Meditation is obviously key, but it is only part of the training.

 

Thank you again.

27 minutes ago, awaken said:

Just like your subject, if you attain Arhatship, will you still ask this question?

就像你這個主題，如果你達到阿羅漢，你還會問這個問題嗎？

If I ever seem to have attained Arhatship and find myself on thedaobums.com the first thing I will do is immediately disbelieve my attainment!

[awaken]

9 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

Thank you for your answer.  I am not sure if it was a poor translation, but it reads to me as if you are saying

 

"Once you attain a certain level of skill, you can determine someone else's strength in concentration just by reading the words they write - or read what is written about them." (Because I am assuming you read ABOUT Trungpa as opposed to reading his book)

 

To me this seems a ridiculous proposition, but it could simply be that my level is too low to understand why.  Can you really discern the concentration abilities of everyone who's writing you read on the internet?  If I had shown you some text created by artificial intelligence, would you be able to discern its concentration abilities as well?

 

And without precepts, or Sila training, how can you say you're pursuing the Buddha's Threefold Training of Sila, Samadhi, and Prajna.  Meditation is obviously key, but it is only part of the training.

 

Thank you again.

If I ever seem to have attained Arhatship and find myself on thedaobums.com the first thing I will do is immediately disbelieve my attainment!

 

 

I read his book.

His book was posted online in Taiwan.

I am not talking about concentration, but samadhi ability.

Have you never entered samadhi before?

I am not a Buddhist.
Of course, if you join a particular religion, you have to abide by the rules of that particular religion. But I didn't join Buddhism.

Let’s wait until you really reach Arhatship, everything you say now is just dream talk.

 

我讀的是他的書。

他的書在台灣有人把它貼到網路上。

我講的不是專注力，而是三摩地能力。

你會不會從來沒有入三摩地過吧？

我又不是佛教徒。
當然你加入了特定的宗教，你就要遵守特定宗教的規則。但是我沒有加入佛教。

等你真的達到阿羅漢再說吧，你現在所說的一切都是夢話。

 

I find you totally disbelieving that I can judge another person's samadhi.

I also began to discover that you have absolutely no ability to cultivate.

Because I have told you so much, you just need to actually practice, but you just refuse to practice.

Like you, I would call it "talking but not practicing".

You put yourself in a loop.

You don't practice, so you can't understand the words of others who have practiced. Some practitioners tell you that after you practice, you will understand. But after you listen to it, you are still unwilling to practice. You just want to know how other people know. Others can only know it because they have practiced to a certain level. But if you haven't practiced to this level, you just can't know. It's that simple.

 

我發現你完全不相信我能夠判斷他人的三摩地能力。

我也開始發現你完全沒有修煉的能力。

因為我已經跟你說了這麼多，你就是需要實際上去修煉，但是你就是不肯修煉。

像你這種，我會稱為「光說不練」。

你讓自己陷入一種迴圈當中。

你不練，所以你看不懂別人有練的人的話。有練的人跟你說，你練了之後，你就會看得懂。但是你聽了之後，你還是不願意練。你只想知道別人是怎麼知道的。別人就是因為有練到某一個程度才能知道。但是你沒有練到這個程度，你就是不能知道。就這麼簡單。

Edited January 26, 2023 by awaken

[Wilhelm]

4 minutes ago, awaken said:

I am not talking about concentration, but samadhi ability.

Have you never entered samadhi before?

This would depend on your definition for Samadhi.

4 minutes ago, awaken said:

Let’s wait until you really reach Arhatship, everything you say now is just dream talk.

Are you an Arhat?