Recommendable and not legit systems

[kakapo]

Just now, Pak_Satrio said:

Ok if that’s the case then why bother doing all that work to get scientists, doctors etc to prove it is real on camera? That will bring the most amount of new people, and a lot more people who would otherwise have no interest in these arts until some guy in a white coat says it’s real.

 

 

 

 

I am not sure I understand your meaning here; could you re-word this, please?

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

20 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

I am not sure I understand your meaning here; could you re-word this, please?

 

Why even make a video with scientists at all if you don't want to attract new students?

[kakapo]

5 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

 

Why even make a video with scientists at all if you don't want to attract new students?

Maybe there is some miscommunication here.

You asked why we didn't release video evidence without scientists and medical doctors present to rule out any possibility of fraud.

I answered because we want to release high-quality evidence, not low-quality evidence.

Quality over quantity

Already there are tons of YouTube videos from other people, but without a concerted effort by professionals to attempt to rule out fraud, they are of little to no value.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

10 minutes ago, kakapo said:

Already there are tons of YouTube videos from other people, but without a concerted effort by professionals to attempt to rule out fraud, they are of little to no value.

 

They at least show something. Those who want to know more will seek these people out and find out for themselves if they are frauds or not.

 

But from you guys we have nothing at all but words and an old Pak John video.

[kakapo]

Just now, Pak_Satrio said:

 

They at least show something. Those who want to know more will seek these people out and find out for themselves if they are frauds or not.

 

But from you guys we have nothing at all but words and an old Pak John video.

 

We do in-person demonstrations to the best of our ability.

[Taoist Texts]

9 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

What does Di Qi 地氣 mean?

 

Quote

 

dìqì [climates in different districts (regions)] 不同地区的气候

此地气之不同也。 --宋·沈括《梦溪笔谈》

---

dìqì 1) climate 2) subtle essence that supposedly animates the earth

 

Obviously the regional climate exists. The subtle essence does not. Its just a useful mental construct.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Taoist Texts

[wandelaar]

@kakapo After a good nights rest I'm back. Years back I already pointed out that medical doctors and scientists can be easily fooled by a skilled stage magician. There has been a little improvement in the discussion now in the sense that the possibility (or even the likelihood) of fraud is recognized. But you absolutely have to add some critical minded stage magicians to the team if you want to rule out fraud to the best of your ability.

 

Better still would be to search for an experimental method that can register even minute forms of physical chi projection so that anybody willing to do a little training can test it at home. All supposing chi projection to exist of course. I wonder if working with an electroscope would help. Have you guys tried using such an apparatus?

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by wandelaar

[ChiDragon]

35 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Obviously the regional climate exists.

 

You are using the modern definition.

37 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

地区的气（regional climate).

It is different from  地气. Go see the post of @Cobie

[wandelaar]

 

 

Oh oh oh - why is TT always using me to do his dirty work?!

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

The subtle essence does not. Its just a useful mental construct.

 

So you are saying the earth does not have a Qi field then? Last probe I promise  

[Taoist Texts]

2 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

So you are saying the earth does not have a Qi field then? Last probe I promise  

absolutely positively does not.

[Cobie]

 

 

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

… The subtle essence … Its just a useful mental construct.

I agree.  Ime it’s not in the external world; it’s in the internal world.

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Cobie

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

absolutely positively does not.

Ok then  

[Shadow_self]

8 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Ok if that’s the case then why bother doing all that work to get scientists, doctors etc to prove it is real on camera? That will bring the most amount of new people, and a lot more people who would otherwise have no interest in these arts until some guy in a white coat says it’s real.

 

 

 

 

The problem is, I have yet to meet a person who suggests this approach, and also  understands the actual ramifications of this

 

8 hours ago, kakapo said:

You asked why we didn't release video evidence without scientists and medical doctors present to rule out any possibility of fraud.

 

Is there something they can do that you cannot to rule out this possibility of fraud?

 

Or is this just about the appeal to authority

 

(Genuine question, not meant in a harsh way) 

 

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

@kakapo After a good nights rest I'm back. Years back I already pointed out that medical doctors and scientists can be easily fooled by a skilled stage magician. 

 

Academics and doctors, believe it or not rarely have a critical mindset.

 

I know of some who would actually take this on, and would be rather happy to. They could have all the dots joined relatively quickly, and a contract signed in about a week or less

 

The bigger issue, and I feel really strongly about this, is that I don't think the world needs this now. Im not a fan of putting anything of this manner into the public academic sphere. 

 

I understand what they are trying to do here, and while perhaps, their hearts are in the right place, which I do respect I do not believe any of them have the experience or foresight to know whats comes out of this, and if they did, I think a more reserved approach would be taken

 

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Better still would be to search for an experimental method that can register even minute forms of physical chi projection so that anybody willing to do a little training can test it at home. All supposing chi projection to exist of course. I wonder if working with an electroscope would help. Have you guys tried using such an apparatus?

 

There is sometimes a tangible of feeling Xie Qi when it is purged from the body.

 

If you were to pass it to someone else, they would feel something. Some people use this as a means to pretend they can actually project qi, when in reality, they are just making another person ill

 

Actually, better yet, in some cases it is actually visible as a kind of smoke, or you start seeing all manner of weird stuff happen.

 

The issue however, is it requires a certain level of foundational work to get going

 

When you are dealing with people who don't want to do the foundational work, but want the result...it gets kind of tricky

 

Just a quick FYI

 

If I recall correctly, people have already done the whole projection into a liquid thing and lab tested it to confirm nothing was added.

 

Youd need to reach out to them to ask real specifics, they havent been here in a while

 

 

Quote

Yes, I am sure he is real. I flew all the way to China to see if he was real. I have built negative ion generators, and know everything about them. Jiang striped down to his underwear to demonstrate he did not have any device on him. Dr. Feng Jiang knows there are a magicians, and charlatans, that is why he goes out of his way to demonstrate that he is able to produce this effect with just his body. One dead give away from someone using a device is how they limit their movement. With a device the user needs to remain standing, and are only insulated by the rubber of the shoes. If someone with a device on sits down or touches the desk with the other hand, the charge will not build up and there will be no effect. With a real Qi user they can touch the patient with one hand, and shock them with the other hand, since the Qi energy is internal.

 

 

 

Quote

This is the results from Dr. Feng Jiang's sweet water. The water was tested with two different procedures. The results show that there were no chemicals added to the water, and the the samples tested as plain water. What ever Jiang is able to do to the water does not change the chemical properties, but makes the water sweet and more refined. To me, this proves that he did not add anything to the water, but is able to create a field effect with his body that can change the properties of water.

 

 

[wandelaar]

Yes I know there is a problem with the advancement of science generally: Can humanity be trusted with stil more knowledge given how things are going right now. But the future is hard to tell. So I don't know - it's an "The old man lost his horse"-situation.

 

Remains the fact that I like to know if there is some truth behind the wonder stories of Taoist sages and masters. Most convincing to me would be to experience something of that kind on a miniature scale myself. With modern equipment it should be possible to amplify minute effects so that they become measurable. I don't plan to go any further as I don't consider acquiring "super-powers" as being conductive to a life well lived.

 

As to the experiments by others claiming to demonstrate chi one should know the details and be familiar with the relevant tricks of conjurers and illusionist to rule out fraud and self deception. I don't have that expertise.

[Indiken]

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

The problem is, I have yet to meet a person who suggests this approach, and also  understands the actual ramifications of this

 

2 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

The bigger issue, and I feel really strongly about this, is that I don't think the world needs this now. Im not a fan of putting anything of this manner into the public academic sphere. 

 

What will happen if the knowledge will be spread?

[Shadow_self]

32 minutes ago, Indiken said:

What will happen if the knowledge will be spread?

 

The knowledge is already spread, that's not the issue

 

The issue is with bringing it into the sphere of academia/ business/politics

 

Important to note, Cerberus has three heads, not one

 

Anyone privy to the inside of academia may be more familiar with what I am talking about 

[Master Logray]

2 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

The knowledge is already spread, that's not the issue

 

The issue is with bringing it into the sphere of academia/ business/politics

 

Important to note, Cerberus has three heads, not one

 

Anyone privy to the inside of academia may be more familiar with what I am talking about 

 

 

Don't you think China itself, full of nationalist sentiment now, doesn't do any scientific experiments themselves over the past decades?  over this national treasure?   They did and confirmed some interesting findings but not conclusive of the nature.   Yet these findings are refuted by other China scientists as unscientifically carried out and very often frauds, even with scientific circle collaborations.  These are the scientific, academic and political situation. 
 

For business, if this Faqi is really so effective in healing, won't there be tens of thousands of Chi Kung technicians everywhere, healing and collecting fees?   Anyway training for Faqi is not that difficult.  It doesn't happen in real life.

 

So I think one more experiment won't do any good, especially when it is commissioned by the interested party itself.  It would be viewed as advertisement.

 

 

 

[Shadow_self]

29 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

 

 

Don't you think China itself, full of nationalist sentiment now, doesn't do any scientific experiments themselves over the past decades?  over this national treasure?   They did and confirmed some interesting findings but not conclusive of the nature.   Yet these findings are refuted by other China scientists as unscientifically carried out and very often frauds, even with scientific circle collaborations.  These are the scientific, academic and political situation. 

 

I don't mean this in a rude way, but for the longest time, much of what happened in the East was shunned by the West. They wouldn't give it credence.

 

That tide is changing, but a lot of the earlier stuff is buried beneath a mountain of skepticism and cognitive biases so heavy, it doesn't even exist on their radar (for now)

 

Quote

For business, if this Faqi is really so effective in healing, won't there be tens of thousands of Chi Kung technicians everywhere, healing and collecting fees?   Anyway training for Faqi is not that difficult.  It doesn't happen in real life.

 

Ill be honest,

 

I don't think its all that useful for healing at all.

 

I personally believe there to be better means, such as what freeform mentioned earlier in the thread. Im not claiming any authority here, just stating my opinion. 

 

But the reality is, anyone doing the real thing will be outlawed, and this practice will be put into the hands of regulatory agencies, which will afford only doctors the right to do it, and they'll do so using a synthetic source (like electro-acupuncture).

 

So it'll be as always, it'll be reshaped to fit the materialistic narrative, the real stuff will be hush hushed,

 

In the meanwhile the lesser known types of research will be taking place behind closed doors (MKUltra type nefarious stuff) 

 

How bad could that get? Make up your own mind.

 

Me personally, I see MNC's have little problem practically enslaving people to their own ends and so the below image, while dramatic, isn't beyond the realm of possibility

 

 

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abe0586

 

Quote

Thermoelectric generators (TEGs) are an excellent candidate for powering wearable electronics and the “Internet of Things,” due to their capability of directly converting heat to electrical energy. Here, we report a high-performance wearable TEG with superior stretchability, self-healability, recyclability, and Lego-like reconfigurability, by combining modular thermoelectric chips, dynamic covalent polyimine, and flowable liquid-metal electrical wiring in a mechanical architecture design of “soft motherboard-rigid plugin modules.” A record-high open-circuit voltage among flexible TEGs is achieved, reaching 1 V/cm² at a temperature difference of 95 K. Furthermore, this TEG is integrated with a wavelength-selective metamaterial film on the cold side, leading to greatly improved device performance under solar irradiation, which is critically important for wearable energy harvesting during outdoor activities. The optimal properties and design concepts of TEGs reported here can pave the way for delivering the next-generation high-performance, adaptable, customizable, durable, economical, and eco-friendly energy-harvesting devices with wide applications.

 

Of course if we are really paying attention, we already know this is on the way. The kicker is, if they found a way to really ramp that up...well

 

Quote

So I think one more experiment won't do any good, especially when it is commissioned by the interested party itself.  It would be viewed as advertisement.

 

Depends on how rigorous and who was attached to it being totally honest. Bigger question is where their money comes from

 

Nobody gave a crap about psychedelics, then you had folk at the Russel groups/Ivy Leagues get behind it.

 

Then. WHOAAAAAAA

 

Of course if you know about these things you know that much of the funding behind those places come from large MNC's and in that case, they are positioning psychedelics to be the next big thing in pharma as SSRI's have effectively crumbled under the very real fact that they are more harmful than helpful.

 

They were assigned as an antidepressant on a false premise to begin with, however that doesn't stop pharma companies from raking in billions every year on something that is more harmful than helpful

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41380-022-01661-0<

 

Quote

The serotonin hypothesis of depression is still influential. We aimed to synthesise and evaluate evidence on whether depression is associated with lowered serotonin concentration or activity in a systematic umbrella review of the principal relevant areas of research. PubMed, EMBASE and PsycINFO were searched using terms appropriate to each area of research, from their inception until December 2020. Systematic reviews, meta-analyses and large data-set analyses in the following areas were identified: serotonin and serotonin metabolite, 5-HIAA, concentrations in body fluids; serotonin 5-HT_1A receptor binding; serotonin transporter (SERT) levels measured by imaging or at post-mortem; tryptophan depletion studies; SERT gene associations and SERT gene-environment interactions. Studies of depression associated with physical conditions and specific subtypes of depression (e.g. bipolar depression) were excluded. Two independent reviewers extracted the data and assessed the quality of included studies using the AMSTAR-2, an adapted AMSTAR-2, or the STREGA for a large genetic study. The certainty of study results was assessed using a modified version of the GRADE. We did not synthesise results of individual meta-analyses because they included overlapping studies. The review was registered with PROSPERO (CRD42020207203). 17 studies were included: 12 systematic reviews and meta-analyses, 1 collaborative meta-analysis, 1 meta-analysis of large cohort studies, 1 systematic review and narrative synthesis, 1 genetic association study and 1 umbrella review. Quality of reviews was variable with some genetic studies of high quality. Two meta-analyses of overlapping studies examining the serotonin metabolite, 5-HIAA, showed no association with depression (largest n = 1002). One meta-analysis of cohort studies of plasma serotonin showed no relationship with depression, and evidence that lowered serotonin concentration was associated with antidepressant use (n = 1869). Two meta-analyses of overlapping studies examining the 5-HT_1A receptor (largest n = 561), and three meta-analyses of overlapping studies examining SERT binding (largest n = 1845) showed weak and inconsistent evidence of reduced binding in some areas, which would be consistent with increased synaptic availability of serotonin in people with depression, if this was the original, causal abnormaly. However, effects of prior antidepressant use were not reliably excluded. One meta-analysis of tryptophan depletion studies found no effect in most healthy volunteers (n = 566), but weak evidence of an effect in those with a family history of depression (n = 75). Another systematic review (n = 342) and a sample of ten subsequent studies (n = 407) found no effect in volunteers. No systematic review of tryptophan depletion studies has been performed since 2007. The two largest and highest quality studies of the SERT gene, one genetic association study (n = 115,257) and one collaborative meta-analysis (n = 43,165), revealed no evidence of an association with depression, or of an interaction between genotype, stress and depression. The main areas of serotonin research provide no consistent evidence of there being an association between serotonin and depression, and no support for the hypothesis that depression is caused by lowered serotonin activity or concentrations. Some evidence was consistent with the possibility that long-term antidepressant use reduces serotonin concentration.

 

So whats the story with SSRI's then?

 

You end up needing them after taking them, when you didnt actually need them to begin with.

 

A cursory glance at some other medications reveal a similar pattern.

 

Quite sad, but a customer isnt much good to a business unless they come back again, so...

Edited February 6, 2023 by Shadow_self

[wandelaar]

Science isn't perfect because it's a human endeavor, and the same goes for the spiritual marketplace and esoteric Taoism. We've seen enough of the derangement's possible in the latter lately. So it's not at all clear that getting some solid scientific knowledge about chi would be a bad thing compared to letting the seekers find out the hard way who the occasional real masters are and who the frauds and quacks. That is: if the seekers even find a real master before giving up. Much better in my opinion would be to have some idea beforehand about what is likely to be real and what not based on research instead of belief and hearsay.

Edited February 6, 2023 by wandelaar

[Master Logray]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Nobody gave a crap about psychedelics, then you had folk at the Russel groups/Ivy Leagues get behind it.

 

Then. WHOAAAAAAA

 

Of course if you know about these things you know that much of the funding behind those places come from large MNC's and in that case, they are positioning psychedelics to be the next big thing in pharma as SSRI's have effectively crumbled under the very real fact that they are more harmful than helpful.

 

They were assigned as an antidepressant on a false premise to begin with, however that doesn't stop pharma companies from raking in billions every year on something that is more harmful than helpful

 

 

So whats the story with SSRI's then?

 

You end up needing them after taking them, when you didnt actually need them to begin with.

 

A cursory glance at some other medications reveal a similar pattern.

 

Quite sad, but a customer isnt much good to a business unless they come back again, so...

 

Indeed, there are so many "diseases" nowadays that needs medicine.  Lazy, dumb, not attentive, too active, sad.....   These are supposed to be characters, not sicknesses.

 

[wandelaar]

Calling something a disease is a moral choice, not a scientific one. A disease is simply an unwanted biological phenomenon, and what is considered unwanted is not a factual scientific matter. That's why we see the definitions of diseases change as a result of societal and political developments. It's plain silly to present this as an example of science gone wrong.

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Science isn't perfect because it's a human endeavor, and the same goes for the spiritual marketplace and esoteric Taoism. We've seen enough of the derangement's possible in the latter lately.

 

Im not so sure it has to do with just  being a human endavours, so much as it has to do with how society is structured and organized

 

Science is a method

Neidan is a method

 

They should be treated as such. As methods

 

Quote

So it's not at all clear that getting some solid scientific knowledge about chi would be a bad thing compared to letting the seekers find out the hard way who the occasional real masters are and who the frauds and quacks.

 

It certainly feels rather clear to me at least, based on what people usually do with knowledge. Like I mentioned, id have their contract signed and returned in a week by people who'd be more than above the standard they seek.

 

I just don't think its a good outcome for anyone at all. Rather the opposite in fact

 

You might be surprised to know, the things ive discussed above, is exactly one of the reasons such folk have not and refuse to come forward with this stuff.

 

The other reason is a little more esoteric

 

Quote

That is: if the seekers even find a real master before giving up. Much better in my opinion would be to have some idea beforehand about what is likely to be real and what not based on research instead of belief and hearsay.

 

Or you know, people could do a bit of science themselves and just explore.

 

That's kind of how people differentiate real from fake. Trial and error

 

A teacher nor a scientist wont be how you'll know whether something is real, it'll be based on your own experiences, and you'll probably

 

The fear in people that they are being conned is quite honestly sad. The seeds it  produces are even more problematic. Have people lost their ability to discern that much? I might be a bit biased here given my training, but I mean really it should not be that hard. 

 

I'm also not sure what is so hard for people to get past regards thinking one can get a degree of control of  out own electromagnetic functions.

 

It is exactly this reason of "I want  concrete proof" before I even consider trying anything, that people never actually find anything

 

Every single person I know of any attainment whatsoever, have all been through good and bad teachers.

 

It is a process and a journey all at the same time really

Edited February 6, 2023 by Shadow_self

[Shadow_self]

9 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Calling something a disease is a moral choice, not a scientific one. A disease is simply an unwanted biological phenomenon, and what is considered unwanted is not a factual scientific matter. That's why we see the definitions of diseases change as a result of societal and political developments. It's plain silly to present this as an example of science gone wrong.

 

Well if science was only treated as the method it is and not a system of belief, the pinnacle of organizational authority and truth, and the means to sustainable profit you would be right.

 

But we don't live in that world anymore sadly

 

I think you are referring to what science was, and not what it has become

 

And yes, it certainly is morally wrong to medicalize every aspect the human condition...but where there's profit to me made, you can be sure they will do it, and you can be sure it will be "evidence based" and "backed by science", even when its not actually science but a bunch of lies and bull**** masquerading as it. 

 

 

[wandelaar]

Science isn't treated as a belief, the pinnacle of organizational authority and truth, and the means to sustainable profit. At least not by those who know what they are talking about. As soon as it becomes that it stops being science. What you are rightly criticizing is pseudoscience. Pseudoscience can be the result of all sorts of things: stupidity, dogmatism, greed, the belief in authority, social conformism, fear of rejection, financial dependency on interested parties, etc. And all those things do indeed happen, so in practice science is a mixture of real science and pseudoscience. The same is true for spirituality. A lot of the latter isn't the real deal and nevertheless sells like crazy. So apparently it isn't that easy to separate the wheat from the chaff. That also holds for both science and spirituality. I am not putting one or the other on a pedestal.