Recommendable and not legit systems

[mcoolio]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

interesting how this naive idea of wasting or spending qi persists. as if qi  was like gas in the tank or electrical charge in a battery. or the idea that qi can be transferred from one person to the the other as if  human qi was gas from one tank to another or charge between batteries. big mistake.

this is surprising. Please tell us more.

[Shadow_self]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

this is surprising. Please tell us more. (and welcome back!)

 

 What would you like me to tell you more about? You'd need to be more specific  

[Iskote]

On 1/28/2023 at 12:55 PM, Gerard said:

Stay away from:

2. Methods that focus on bogus practices like Microcosmic Orbit

 

 

No, 'microcosmic orbit'  can be naturally occurring and also can be a result of certain types of qigong/neigong/meditation practice. 

Also, in my experience, what is called 'microcosmic orbit' can be defined differently in different schools and be different at different stages, in regards to the form of energy circulated and how it is done. 

 

Beware of those who make blanket statements and who don't provide any details and clarification about what they are saying. 

Those who speak from real experience and with real knowledge and wisdom are rare to encounter.  

Taking everything with a grain of salt, whether it comes from forums such as this, or from books, or from 'teachers', and 'masters' is always a good idea.   

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

27 minutes ago, Iskote said:

Taking everything with a grain of salt, whether it comes from forums such as this

Best advice in this thread so far 

[Taoist Texts]

40 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

You'd need to be more specific  

sure. how is faqi faked? we heard about the ion device. what are other ways?

[Shadow_self]

30 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

sure. how is faqi faked? we heard about the ion device. what are other ways?

 

Oh, I thought I mentioned this? They can use outside means

 

Like I said, im not going to get into specifics or name  lots of names.

 

Here is just one way that the effect can be replicated, but the cause is different

 

https://www.neiqigongjiaoshiandrea.com/method

 

Quote

First superior practice 1° Dian Qi Gong

 

Always attentive to the possibility of absorbing and exchanging energy from natural elements, some Chinese teachers have studied the possibility of using electricity as an energy source in the last century, seeing and observing how, in fact, the most evident manifestation of Qi in those who have the ability to do the Fa Qi (to emit Qi), were a sensation of electric current flowing in the body.

 

This method, kept secret for a long time, produces:

An acceleration of the processes of accumulation of Qi

Achieving a high level of control over the entire nervous system, and being able to control even involuntary contraction of muscles even under electrical or pain stimulation

 

At the end of the practicing period, the practitioner can remain connected to electricity even at 220 Volts during the practice, without suffering any damage.

 

A method will be taught to do healing treatments using "finger electrical pressure".

Through physical contact between people, it will be possible to transmit appropriate electrical stimulation at specific points that activate the healing processes, which are decisive for many diseases.

 

This system is used in some Chinese hospitals by experienced Qi Gong masters, and it has been an important healing system for a long time

 

FYI I am not calling the teacher a fake or this or that. So anyone before you consider that or you try to go there, please do not

 

@Taoist Texts you asked for an alternative way in which Fa Qi could be faked, here you go.

 

This can replicate the effect without actually having the same cause

 

As far as I am concerned this is a fake method, for the reasons mentioned above

 

Also there are others too...

 

And for this reason, an LED test is a pretty useless indicator of a valid system, as is anything with a multimeter or similar.

 

In fact, it is pointless

Edited February 4, 2023 by Shadow_self

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, mcoolio said:

this is surprising. Please tell us more.

sure. lets take the faqi healing.

When the healer issues his qi into the patient to heal the patients disease - what is actually happening? The patient is reverted into the pre-disease state right? So the healer turns back the patients bio-clock, effectively rejuvenating him. But such healers for some reason cannot rejuvenate themselves and live forever. This proves that there is no such thing as a transfer of healing qi.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician,_heal_thyself

[mcoolio]

44 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

When the healer issues his qi into the patient to heal the patients disease - what is actually happening? The patient is reverted into the pre-disease state right? So the healer turns back the patients bio-clock, effectively rejuvenating him. But such healers for some reason cannot rejuvenate themselves and live forever. This proves that there is no such thing as a transfer of healing qi.

 

Can't see how this is a sound logical argument 

 

Transfer of (healing) qi doesn't imply that the patient will actually get better.

 

But even if someone would be able to transfer some qi into a patient such that it could cure, that doesn't mean that the healer is able to revert certain fundamental processes in his own body (or in the patients body). I'd think that would be a little bit more difficult.

 

 

[kakapo]

12 hours ago, EFreethought said:

If you do not mind my asking: What other systems have you looked at?

 

 

I can't get into that for the reasons stated previously. It's not my intention to be rude or curt, so please don't take it that way.

 

[kakapo]

9 hours ago, Maddie said:

 

(How does what you said above answer my question below?)

_________________________________

 

"That end goal is not watching Honey Boo Boo, Duck Dynasty, the Kardashians, NASCAR, the NFL, WWE, etc.

 The end goal is not to stay drunk on cheap beer and microwave meals and work a 9-to-5 till we wind up in a nursing home."

 

(Is this system necessary to accomplish this?)

 

 

 

Maybe I misunderstood what you were asking.

You asked me originally what the point of Mo Pai was, and I did my best to try and answer that. This short story by Isaac Asimov, read by Leonard Nimoy (Spock), might help to answer that question better than I could. https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/54415-the-last-question-isaac-asimov-read-by-leonard-nimoy/

The vast majority of people spend their lives watching garbage television, eating garbage food, staying drunk and high, and doing anything they can to disconnect and distract themselves from reality until it's their time to die or get tossed into a nursing home to be forgotten about by society.

I believe there is a purpose to all this, and that's not it.

 

For any problem, there are an infinite number of solutions, some more elegant than others.

Mo Pai is just one possible answer, and probably not even the most elegant one.

Edited February 4, 2023 by kakapo

[kakapo]

11 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Yet you guys treat Magus of Java like the Bible and hang on to every word.

Like this for example:

 

Have you considered that maybe Kosta made some things up to make the story more interesting?

 

I'm not omniscient; I wasn't there when John spoke those words, nor when Kosta wrote them down.

I can only assume Kosta didn't lie; John actually said that, and John probably believed what he was saying was true.

John was human, and humans make mistakes and believe things that aren't true sometimes.

That said, John's opinion holds more weight than most due to the evidence he's provided.

[wandelaar]

@kakapo

 

Would it be conceivable for you to accept that we simply don't know what the purpose of our existence is, if there even is one? In that case "free and easy wandering" would become a possibility without following any particular path or realizing any particular goal. You would live because you were born, and you would die because it was your time to die. And that would be it. You would have played your role in the cosmic play, nothing more and nothing less...

[kakapo]

4 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

@kakapo

 

Would it be conceivable for you to accept that we simply don't know what the purpose of our existence is, if there even is one? In that case "free and easy wandering" would become a possibility without following any particular path or realizing any particular goal. You would live because you were born, and you would die because it was your time to die. And that would be it. You would have played your role in the cosmic play, nothing more and nothing less...

 

Looking at the fossil record, this swarm of nanobots has been laser-focused on recursive self-optimization for billions of years.

It seems crystal clear where all this is headed, what the point of all this is, and what the end goal is; no question whatsoever remains in my mind.

Of course, just like in a Rorschach test, people tend to see patterns emerge from the noise that reflect what they wish to see.

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

sure. lets take the faqi healing.

When the healer issues his qi into the patient to heal the patients disease - what is actually happening? The patient is reverted into the pre-disease state right?

 

No, faqi can’t revert someone to a previous state. That would imply time reversal. That is not possible in our human condition. Healing may involve restoring balance, opening channels, neutralizing or releasing toxins, and so forth. It may help someone to become better adjusted or reconciled to the changes they’ve experienced.

 

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

So the healer turns back the patients bio-clock, effectively rejuvenating him. But such healers for some reason cannot rejuvenate themselves and live forever. This proves that there is no such thing as a transfer of healing qi.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician,_heal_thyself

 

Your initial premise is mistaken, IMO, hence the conclusion has no basis.

[wandelaar]

23 minutes ago, kakapo said:

It seems crystal clear where all this is headed, what the point of all this is, and what the end goal is; no question whatsoever remains in my mind.

 

Even if it were clear, than why would you feel the need to jump on the bandwagon? For instance it's also clear that we are poisoning the earth with our overproduction of needless gadgets. Is that a reason to further speed up the process?

[freeform]

8 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

interesting how this naive idea of wasting or spending qi persists. as if qi  was like gas in the tank or electrical charge in a battery. or the idea that qi can be transferred from one person to the the other as if  human qi was gas from one tank to another or charge between batteries. big mistake.

interesting… coz from their perspective (and mine) the opposite of this (internal Yang Qi is limitless, it can’t be stored, it can’t be transferred etc) would be seen to be naive.

 

In fact that perspective suggests to me that you’ve never experienced cultivated Yang Qi before… so all this ‘attainments are subjective’ view makes a ton of sense now! 
 

Hope you’ll get to experience it one day  

Edited February 4, 2023 by freeform

[kakapo]

34 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

Even if it were clear, than why would you feel the need to jump on the bandwagon? For instance it's also clear that we are poisoning the earth with our overproduction of needless gadgets. Is that a reason to further speed up the process?

 

I want to jam my foot down on the accelerator, full throttle.

I am ready for an intelligence explosion of cambrian proportions.

There are infinite solutions to our problems, some more elegant than others.

France, for example, recycles its nuclear waste; the vast majority of it can be reused as fuel, and only a very small amount needs to be vitrified in glass, which renders it safe to handle and stable for long-term geological storage. In 300 years, it will approach normal background levels of radiation. The type of reactors we use today were designed to be small, 60 megawatt reactors for use in submarines, and the inventor expressed serious concerns when they were scaled up to 1000 megawatts as containment and safety could not be guaranteed. He lost his job at Oak Ridge National Labs for advocating for design changes to prioritize safety. We could make smaller, completely safe reactors and recycle our nuclear waste like France does, but it would cost more money to do it the right way, so we don't.

We could make all our waste streams recyclable, pass strict laws, and mandate that the laws be enforced.

It is possible for progress to happen while protecting the environment; we live in a culture of laziness, greed, and corruption, though.

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by kakapo

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, steve said:

Your initial premise is mistaken, IMO, hence the conclusion has no basis.

Also WIKIPEDIA

[Shadow_self]

On 02/02/2023 at 9:35 AM, Pak_Satrio said:

Who are these people?

 

See below..

 

On 02/02/2023 at 6:12 AM, kakapo said:

There was a member of a famous lineage who demonstrated such abilities on YouTube, and he was offered $10,000 USD for a 15-minute demonstration that would occur at a hotel close to his house under controlled conditions with no cameras present if he didn't want to be filmed. He refused.

Another famous person here on this forum is claiming similar abilities. We traveled to him and found him wearing the device I mentioned in the previous post.

Collectively, we could have purchased several homes for all the money we've spent traveling to China, chasing leads, only to come back empty-handed.

I and the rest of the group are open to there being other systems that do this, but we've seen no good evidence at this time for it.

 

The person you offered 10k to was either Jiang or Wu, I forget which one now. I think it was the latter but cannot remember

 

Small change to them however...

 

As for the "famous person" claiming similar abilities on this forum.

 

There are  only two people here who claim the "electric qi emission skill, one isn't a teacher, and I could bet my life he'd not pander to your requests,  the other, you've stated you apparently don't even know.

 

So that's all a bit suspicious....

 

Moreover, given the fact you guys need doctors and scientists present for these things, I assume it was a full fledged team of doctors and scientists who discovered this device after their rigorous investigation correct?

 

Otherwise, you'd have no proof such fakery took place? Unless of course there's a double standard here? 

 

On 02/02/2023 at 12:54 PM, kakapo said:

I can't point fingers without serious repercussions.

I foresee that making such an accusation would start a conflagration of epic proportions between their students and myself.

I am sure the staff here on the forum wouldn't take kindly to such an event.

It's best not to open that can of worms.

 

Well , this is the not legit systems.

 

If you have a suggestion who is not legit, then I think the mods (and members) would be rather pleased

 

Or

 

Perhaps, the issue is rather, you don't have the evidence of fraudulent activity in equal proportion to what  your group would expect is the minimum standard for legitimate activity, and so, at the risk of asking people to accept your personal testimony (because that's a sin apparently) you are refusing to say anything

 

On 03/02/2023 at 12:26 PM, kakapo said:

Jim only gave us training and video of John up to level 2b; that's as far as his knowledge and experience went.

Even now that we do have video of John teaching later levels, which has been translated from Indonesian, we don't have people who can answer questions for us if need be.

That being said, what other choice do we have?

 

So you've got what you want, and you now don't know how to use it? Irony is a strange one indeed

 

 

On 03/02/2023 at 12:56 PM, kakapo said:

We've all spent tens of thousands of dollars chasing fake systems and teachers.

 

At no point has it ever registered with you that you probably did come across a few legitimate ones who simply don't want you as their students due to the attitudes? 

 

21 hours ago, kakapo said:

It's amazing how many people I and others in our group have argued with over the years about how we're all power-hungry Son Goku wannabes who want to fly and shoot fireballs from our palms.

 

It is more amazing that you all have spent the bones of 15 years  chasing this now and still not seen the issue behind why you cannot find someone to give you what you want

 

Lets say a teacher gave you what you wanted, demo'd all this stuff for you guys, 100% as you wished

 

What exactly do they get from all of this? 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Shadow_self

[wandelaar]

48 minutes ago, kakapo said:

 

I want to jam my foot down on the accelerator, full throttle.

I am ready for an intelligence explosion of cambrian proportions.

There are infinite solutions to our problems, some more elegant than others.

France, for example, recycles its nuclear waste; the vast majority of it can be reused as fuel, and only a very small amount needs to be vitrified in glass, which renders it safe to handle and stable for long-term geological storage. In 300 years, it will approach normal background levels of radiation. The type of reactors we use today were designed to be small, 60 megawatt reactors for use in submarines, and the inventor expressed serious concerns when they were scaled up to 1000 megawatts as containment and safety could not be guaranteed. He lost his job at Oak Ridge National Labs for advocating for design changes to prioritize safety. We could make smaller, completely safe reactors and recycle our nuclear waste like France does, but it would cost more money to do it the right way, so we don't.

We could make all our waste streams recyclable, pass strict laws, and mandate that the laws be enforced.

It is possible for progress to happen while protecting the environment; we live in a culture of laziness, greed, and corruption, though.

 

 

That's an answer to a question I didn't ask. ;-)

 

Also nuclear reactors are a huge danger in a world where rogue states use them to build nuclear bombs or to backmail perceived enemies by (threatening) attacking their reactors in case of war. It's my opinion that humanity can't be trusted with nuclear energy and the less we have of it the better it is. But I don't want to debate such controversial political stuff here. It's off topic besides.

[Barnaby]

Also, France’s nuclear industry isn’t going as great as you seem to think…

[Shadow_self]

FYI @kakapo dont feel the need to respond

 

I've no intention of a back and forward.

 

Been there bought the T-shirt with the other guy. Water under the bridge

 

I just think it extremely odd you come here claiming these things, apparently being a champion of truth (which I do respect to an extent) but then telling people, no, we wont tell you who we caught cheating, as it will cause problems.

 

You'd make a far better case for yourself stating the "facts" and letting people derive their own conclusions

 

However I digress

 

Enjoy the forum, perhaps try speaking to a few different people and you might be surprised what doors open

Edited February 4, 2023 by Shadow_self

[Wu Ming Jen]

While a TaiJi form stays within the balance of Yin and Yang, the TaiYi form is more about the distinction and therefore the separation of Yin and Yang. The coordination that internalizes and represents this idea and puts it into action is Fa Jin (發勁). Fa Jin is a special movement characterized by explosive and precise striking. Most often these strikes are done to vulnerable and weak points on the opponents body.

 

Proper body mechanics, shift in weight, turning of the waste. Changing distance, timing and the angle with relaxed muscles, explosive power is Fa jing. 

 

I am not sure what fake fa jing is?  What is with electrical shock?  Static electricity creates a shock to another person that must be magical right? The real shock is in the receiving end of Fa jing. It is shocking how debilitating the strike is.

 

How about empty force, Fake hit someone with out touching them wow you made the opponent react and move without touching but lets not get into such a mystical magical power for now. 

[mcoolio]

18 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

Things like the LED and other electric phenomena, are a very poor test

 

Because what happens if they give you a legit demonstration to hook you in, fake it to the ones who just want "treatments"  then teach you nothings, and have you roped in, all because you believed one demonstration

 

Makes me think about something else to be wary of. Having suspiciously strong energetic sensations that stay only for a short while and especially when this happens in the beginning when starting out in some school.

 

Very easy to get hooked in by this. Suddenly having your channels open or whatever mechanism working correctly for a week or 2. No more sensations of cold or heat, feeling of having rocket boosters in your legs, ... And then having these sensations fall away as mysteriously as they came.

 

Can be both good and bad I guess. Something like this happened for me. Was a blessing and a curse. Blessing because it made me aware that there is an energetic aspect to life that was completely unknown to me before that. Curse because it got me hooked into a system in a way that is certainly not healthy.

 

So yea, it's not all bad, but experiences like these do not mean that some school is good. Still need to see if you can achieve some actual sustained transformation in the system (probably takes a while), look at how the teacher and other students behave, ....

[EFreethought]

11 hours ago, kakapo said:

I can't get into that for the reasons stated previously. It's not my intention to be rude or curt, so please don't take it that way.

 

Then why not just keep meditating and figure out for yourselves how to advance? I think in "The Magus of Java" the author said that is what the MoPai school did for a few centuries.

 

I know DIY is frowned upon here at The Dao Bums, but as many have pointed out: A lot of knowledge has been lost, particularly in the past couple of centuries. DIY is how the masters originally did it.