Recommendable and not legit systems

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, kakapo said:

 

I posted the video above.

John invited a team of scientists and medical doctors to investigate him.

They stripped him down to his shirt and underwear and used a metal detector to check him for metal before getting a demonstration.

They then repeated this at a random location they chose, in an effort to rule out some device on his property causing the effect.

Certainly in this day and age, not everyone will accept this as evidence, and we all wish that there had been subsequent replication studies of this with different researchers.

That said, it is the best evidence we know of.

Right now, for other arts, there are a lot of YouTube videos; however, there are no scientists or medical doctors who make a best-case effort to rule out fraud.

Much of what we see on YouTube can be replicated using negative ion generators and infrared lasers.

 

Fun fact: A member of our group caught a teacher who is highly recommended on thedaobums using a negative ion generator device that is worn in the shoe and has a metal collection plate on the bottom of the shoe.

 

A device much like this one:

 

https://www.amazon.com/Murphys-Magic-Electric-Gimmick-Mesika/dp/B00LPC1X80

Yes I’ve seen this video posted so many times, yet there is never any written report posted about the findings. Anyway it doesn’t matter to me because I believe what he is doing is real.

 

However have you personally ever experienced faqi in real life? If you have you will know that it’s not just Pak John who can do it. It’s even found in non Daoist traditions too.

[kakapo]

15 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Yes I’ve seen this video posted so many times, yet there is never any written report posted about the findings. Anyway it doesn’t matter to me because I believe what he is doing is real.

 

However have you personally ever experienced faqi in real life? If you have you will know that it’s not just Pak John who can do it. It’s even found in non Daoist traditions too.

 

When it comes to evidence that can be easily mass produced and transmitted to others, we are very limited. We can record the event on video with audio, audio only, or text. We can record personal testimony on audio and text, in which we must take the author's word that the event occurred as they believe it did. We know that the human mind is prone to self-deception, selectively remembers some things, ignores others, and distorts memories to fit worldviews. We know that human memory is fallible. In court, multiple eyewitnesses can give drastically different testimonies of the same event for these very reasons. Video, though it can be altered and doctored, is the best choice to help address these issues. It is why police departments use body cameras, we use dash cams, and banks use high-resolution cameras. Video acts as a safeguard for fallible human memory and perceptions. The best-case scenario I know of is to have doctors and scientists present to do their best to rule out fraud and capture the event on video. Having them record their personal thoughts on the matter in writing is inconsequential.

I personally have, yes.

I, however, have not seen any compelling evidence for any other system besides mo-pai or tummo.

There was a member of a famous lineage who demonstrated such abilities on YouTube, and he was offered $10,000 USD for a 15-minute demonstration that would occur at a hotel close to his house under controlled conditions with no cameras present if he didn't want to be filmed. He refused.

Another famous person here on this forum is claiming similar abilities. We traveled to him and found him wearing the device I mentioned in the previous post.

Collectively, we could have purchased several homes for all the money we've spent traveling to China, chasing leads, only to come back empty-handed.

I and the rest of the group are open to there being other systems that do this, but we've seen no good evidence at this time for it.

[Taoist Texts]

3 hours ago, kakapo said:

Another famous person here on this forum is claiming similar abilities. We traveled to him and found him wearing the device I mentioned in the previous post.

 

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

3 hours ago, kakapo said:

There was a member of a famous lineage who demonstrated such abilities on YouTube, and he was offered $10,000 USD for a 15-minute demonstration that would occur at a hotel close to his house under controlled conditions with no cameras present if he didn't want to be filmed. He refused.

Another famous person here on this forum is claiming similar abilities. We traveled to him and found him wearing the device I mentioned in the previous post.

Who are these people?

[wandelaar]

@kakapo

 

I didn't expect this to happen, but I consider the above post of yours to be eminently reasonable. I hope you keep up this style of communication so we can both learn something. Personally I'm not sure the projection of Chi with physical consequences is possible, but it would be hard for me to believe that it only happens within MoPai if it does exist. For instance recently this guy was mentioned on this forum:

 

 

[kakapo]

3 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Who are these people?

 

I can't point fingers without serious repercussions.

I foresee that making such an accusation would start a conflagration of epic proportions between their students and myself.

I am sure the staff here on the forum wouldn't take kindly to such an event.

It's best not to open that can of worms.

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, kakapo said:

 

I can't point fingers without serious repercussions.

I foresee that making such an accusation would start a conflagration of epic proportions between their students and myself.

I am sure the staff here on the forum wouldn't take kindly to such an event.

It's best not to open that can of worms.

If you make big claims you have to back them up, otherwise everyone will think you are just making it up.

[wandelaar]

I think Kakapo's position in this matter is defensible. It would indeed open a can of worms when names were given. On the other hand the information that he and his group tried to test some people from other lineages and failed to find the real deal is relevant for understanding his enthusiasm for Mo Pai. Leaving that information out would make this enthusiasm less understandable.

Edited February 2, 2023 by wandelaar

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

I think Kakapo's position in this matter is defensible. It would indeed open a can of worms when names were given. On the other hand the information that he and his group tried to test some people from other lineages and failed to find the real deal is relevant for understanding his enthusiasm for Mo Pai. Leaving that information out would make this enthusiasm less understandable.

I just struggle to understand the appeal of learning from a system that is completely closed to outsiders and what information is available to learn from is only up to a certain level. Who would be responsible for testing students to see if they have reached a certain milestone? How do you progress further if you ever complete the levels available to you?

 

I would advise any newcomers looking at this thread to stay away completely from “Mo Pai” that is taught in the West. There are many other schools that will lead to the same result that are completely open to Westerners. However if you are Chinese or Indonesian by all means go learn from the actual Mo Pai.

[wandelaar]

@Pak_Satrio

 

I know next to nothing about esoteric Taoism, so I don't know whether Mo Pai (eastern or western) would be a good or a bad choice to follow as a lineage. All I said was that Kakapo did well to not name names as that wasn't necessary for the point he made that he didn't find the real deal in other lineages (except tummo).

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

@Pak_Satrio

 

I know next to nothing about esoteric Taoism, so I don't know whether Mo Pai (eastern or western) would be a good or a bad choice to follow as a lineage. All I said was that Kakapo did well to not name names as that wasn't necessary for the point he made that he didn't find the real deal in other lineages (except tummo).

Don’t make claims if you won’t name names. What he is doing is slandering other people and systems without giving them a chance to defend themselves. It’s a good lie because it will make newcomers suspicious of everyone that isn’t “Mo Pai” if they believe what he says. If what he says is true then there’s no need to keep it secret, this thread is for recommending legit systems and warning others about illegitimate systems after all. He would be doing them a service by exposing these frauds, yet I guarantee he won’t say anything about it anymore. 

Who are they to go around testing other people to see if they are real or not? Can they faqi? Their lineage doesn’t even recognise them, just look through the old threads here about Mo Pai and you will find actual Indonesians from actual Mo Pai telling these guys to stop associating their group with them. 
 

I have all the respect for Pak John and the real Mo Paid. He was an amazing man with great abilities, reading Magus of Java inspired me to get into cultivation and learn as much as I can. I was sad to learn that he passed away and also sad to hear that the school was closed to foreigners, but it is what it is. He is not the first with these abilities and he won’t be the last. The world is huge and there are many people to learn from.

If it’s faqi specifically that you are interested in you can check out Rudi from Authentic Neigong:

 

https://authenticneigong.com/
 

He learned from the late Master Jiang Feng and is currently learns from Master Zhou:

 

 

Here is Rudi demonstrating faqi:

 

 

Here are some students on the latest trip to receive faqi and other treatment to help with health and cultivation:

 

 

All of this is available to learn online.

 

Alternatively if you want to learn from a non Taoist system that will develop a faqi ability you can try to learn from Sheikh Muhammad in London, although you might have to convert to Islam. Skip to 00:30 in the video to see the faqi.

 

If it’s just a powerful qigong system you are looking for, learn Flying Phoenix Chi Kung by Sifu Terry Dunn. You can find info from this website or read through the massive Flying Phoenix thread here on Dao Bums:

 

http://www.taichimania.com/chikung_catalog.html

 

These are just the systems I know are legit, there are no doubt many more that I don’t know about. Just empty your cup and explore the world. 

Edited February 2, 2023 by Pak_Satrio

[EFreethought]

48 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Don’t make claims if you won’t name names. 

 

 

This is my new catchphrase.

 

[小梦想]

9 hours ago, kakapo said:

I can't point fingers without serious repercussions.

I don't know many on daobums who claim to be able to emit qi as an electric current so this statement could give people doubts about my authenticity.

 

If you don't want disclose who it was, can you at the very least make it very clear that this is not referring to me.

[Maddie]

Actually emitting low levels of chi isn't very difficult and pretty much anybody can do it. All you need is a strip of aluminum foil and a thread and a piece of tape and you hang the foil from the thread using the tape and you make sure all the fans and ACs are off and you point a finger at one end of the foil and you visualize chi coming out of that finger and hitting the foil and usually it will change directions.

[kakapo]

5 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

I just struggle to understand the appeal of learning from a system that is completely closed to outsiders and what information is available to learn from is only up to a certain level. Who would be responsible for testing students to see if they have reached a certain milestone? How do you progress further if you ever complete the levels available to you?

 

I would advise any newcomers looking at this thread to stay away completely from “Mo Pai” that is taught in the West. There are many other schools that will lead to the same result that are completely open to Westerners. However if you are Chinese or Indonesian by all means go learn from the actual Mo Pai.

 

We don't know of any better alternatives; we've searched high and low and haven't found any good evidence of anything else.

We need a teacher who will bring in a team of scientists and medical doctors, travel to a random location they choose, strip naked, be checked for metal, and deliver a demonstration such as powering an LED, all on camera.

If we find that, we will all jump ship from Mo Pai to whatever school or system that may be in a heartbeat.

[kakapo]

2 hours ago, 小梦想 said:

I don't know many on daobums who claim to be able to emit qi as an electric current so this statement could give people doubts about my authenticity.

 

If you don't want disclose who it was, can you at the very least make it very clear that this is not referring to me.

 

If I engage in a game of Clue, then by process of elimination, everyone here can figure out "It Was Colonel Mustard with the Lead Pipe in the Kitchen."

That said, I don't even know who you are.

If you do demonstrations for people with electric qi, then ruling out such a device is very easy.

Strip down to shorts, do your demos barefoot, and show them the soles of your feet.

The device we caught the person using has a negative ion generator and a metal plate on the bottom of the user's shoe.

Wearing shorts and being barefoot should clear you pretty quickly.

It pulls negative ions from the ground and pushes them into the person's body, creating static-like effects like these:

 

I hope that helps.

[kakapo]

4 hours ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Don’t make claims if you won’t name names. What he is doing is slandering other people and systems without giving them a chance to defend themselves. It’s a good lie because it will make newcomers suspicious of everyone that isn’t “Mo Pai” if they believe what he says. If what he says is true then there’s no need to keep it secret, this thread is for recommending legit systems and warning others about illegitimate systems after all. He would be doing them a service by exposing these frauds, yet I guarantee he won’t say anything about it anymore. 

Who are they to go around testing other people to see if they are real or not? Can they faqi? Their lineage doesn’t even recognise them, just look through the old threads here about Mo Pai and you will find actual Indonesians from actual Mo Pai telling these guys to stop associating their group with them. 
 

I have all the respect for Pak John and the real Mo Paid. He was an amazing man with great abilities, reading Magus of Java inspired me to get into cultivation and learn as much as I can. I was sad to learn that he passed away and also sad to hear that the school was closed to foreigners, but it is what it is. He is not the first with these abilities and he won’t be the last. The world is huge and there are many people to learn from.

If it’s faqi specifically that you are interested in you can check out Rudi from Authentic Neigong:

 

https://authenticneigong.com/
 

He learned from the late Master Jiang Feng and is currently learns from Master Zhou:

 

 

Here is Rudi demonstrating faqi:

 

 

Here are some students on the latest trip to receive faqi and other treatment to help with health and cultivation:

 

 

All of this is available to learn online.

 

Alternatively if you want to learn from a non Taoist system that will develop a faqi ability you can try to learn from Sheikh Muhammad in London, although you might have to convert to Islam. Skip to 00:30 in the video to see the faqi.

 

If it’s just a powerful qigong system you are looking for, learn Flying Phoenix Chi Kung by Sifu Terry Dunn. You can find info from this website or read through the massive Flying Phoenix thread here on Dao Bums:

 

http://www.taichimania.com/chikung_catalog.html

 

These are just the systems I know are legit, there are no doubt many more that I don’t know about. Just empty your cup and explore the world. 

It is certainly not my intention to slander anyone, which is why I haven't pointed fingers at anyone.

 

As to your other question, we offer a demonstration for those we feel are serious and need a demonstration to be convinced.

 

It's all done under controlled conditions at their location, and while it's not as powerful as what John provided, it usually does the job.

[Barnaby]

6 hours ago, kakapo said:

We need a teacher who will bring in a team of scientists and medical doctors, travel to a random location they choose, strip naked, be checked for metal, and deliver a demonstration such as powering an LED, all on camera.

Sounds like a reality TV show 😂

[wandelaar]

9 hours ago, Maddie said:

Actually emitting low levels of chi isn't very difficult and pretty much anybody can do it. All you need is a strip of aluminum foil and a thread and a piece of tape and you hang the foil from the thread using the tape and you make sure all the fans and ACs are off and you point a finger at one end of the foil and you visualize chi coming out of that finger and hitting the foil and usually it will change directions.

 

I wonder if it's that simple: can you then start and stop the chi projection at will by means of the visualization technique? Otherwise it could well be an effect of static electricity pure and simple...

 

Personally I'm only interested in the question of does or doesn't the phenomenon of chi projection exist as a physically measurable process. That's an important test concerning my worldview. I'm ready to change my worldview any time that convincing reasons to do so are presented.

Edited February 3, 2023 by wandelaar

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

17 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

I wonder if it's that simple: can you then start and stop the chi projection at will by means of the visualization technique? Otherwise it could well be an effect of static electricity pure and simple...

 

Personally I'm only interested in the question of does or doesn't the phenomenon of chi projection exist as a physically measurable process. That's an important test concerning my worldview. I'm ready to change my worldview any time that convincing reasons to do so are presented.

You should ask 小梦想. It does exist but he can explain the details better than I can. 

[Vajra Fist]

With great power comes great responsibility 

[wandelaar]

Just now, Vajra Fist said:

With great power comes great responsibility 

 

That's why I don't want it. ;-) I want just enough to satisfy myself that chi projection exists.

[Nahfets]

13 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

 

That's why I don't want it. ;-) I want just enough to satisfy myself that chi projection exists.

Stop looking start practicing

[-ꦥꦏ꧀ ꦱꦠꦿꦶꦪꦺꦴ-]

9 hours ago, kakapo said:

If we find that, we will all jump ship from Mo Pai to whatever school or system that may be in a heartbeat.

This is not a good sign. If your system is as good as you would have us all believe, why would you be so quick to abandon it for something else? It should be complete enough as it is that you wouldn’t need anything else. 

[kakapo]

1 hour ago, Pak_Satrio said:

This is not a good sign. If your system is as good as you would have us all believe, why would you be so quick to abandon it for something else? It should be complete enough as it is that you wouldn’t need anything else. 

 

If we had been wealthy, retired, 18-year-old, ethnically Chinese Indonesian citizens who began training with John in the late 80s and early 90s and had been able to dedicate 100 hours per week to training until the present day, we might have come away with a lot more opportunity than we have now.

Many of the criticisms you and others throw at us are not without merit.

Jim only gave us training and video of John up to level 2b; that's as far as his knowledge and experience went.

Even now that we do have video of John teaching later levels, which has been translated from Indonesian, we don't have people who can answer questions for us if need be.

That being said, what other choice do we have?

We have looked high and low for good evidence for other systems and not found it.

Give us good evidence for a system like Mo Pai, and we'll jump ship.

I think the only reason a person should pursue Mo Pai is that they've examined all the alternatives and found nothing comparable in terms of evidence.