Recommendable and not legit systems

[Taoist Texts]

12 hours ago, mcoolio said:

But even if someone would be able to transfer some qi into a patient such that it could cure, that doesn't mean that the healer is able to revert certain fundamental processes in his own body (or in the patients body). I'd think that would be a little bit more difficult.

That is the  mechanical western way of thinking whereas the disease is like a shot transmission in a car but the chassis is ok; or, there is no gas in the tank but the car is fine. The total opposite of that is the holistic oriental paradigm : the system is either sick as a whole or is not sick at all. There is no separate disease: a disease is just a symptom of the whole system being out of whack.

10 hours ago, steve said:

That would imply time reversal. That is not possible in our human condition. Healing may involve restoring balance,

 

10 hours ago, freeform said:

interesting… coz from their perspective (and mine) the opposite of this (internal Yang Qi is limitless, it can’t be stored, it can’t be transferred etc) would be seen to be naive.

I can explain (however naively) how i arrive at my conclusions.  But they just  opine qualified by 'IMO' and 'I think'.

 

Lets say i claim that my qi can break a glass. The glass is a material object. It cannot be broken by an immaterial object.  Now, qi is certainly something immaterial because otherwise we all would see it. So how can something immaterial break something material? It cannot. Thats why faqi does not exist.

[Shadow_self]

21 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Lets say i claim that my qi can break a glass. The glass is a material object. It cannot be broken by an immaterial object.  Now, qi is certainly something immaterial because otherwise we all would see it. So how can something immaterial break something material? It cannot. Thats why faqi does not exist.

 

Is it immaterial?

 

Or is it that which sits between material and immaterial, and thus bridges the gap

 

Something to think about

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, mcoolio said:

 

Makes me think about something else to be wary of. Having suspiciously strong energetic sensations that stay only for a short while and especially when this happens in the beginning when starting out in some school.

 

Very easy to get hooked in by this. Suddenly having your channels open or whatever mechanism working correctly for a week or 2. No more sensations of cold or heat, feeling of having rocket boosters in your legs, ... And then having these sensations fall away as mysteriously as they came.

 

Can be both good and bad I guess. Something like this happened for me. Was a blessing and a curse. Blessing because it made me aware that there is an energetic aspect to life that was completely unknown to me before that. Curse because it got me hooked into a system in a way that is certainly not healthy.

 

So yea, it's not all bad, but experiences like these do not mean that some school is good. Still need to see if you can achieve some actual sustained transformation in the system (probably takes a while), look at how the teacher and other students behave, ....

 

On the point of good and bad, I do agree

 

Depending on the sensations imo, they can be helpful or harmful (or both)

 

Zifagong is a good example

 

Once it gets going it can be rather exciting to see "oh cool, this **** is working"

 

At the same time, if you are practicing to experience zifagong, you're just creating more layers and clinging in your mind, and really its not going to get to do the work it needs to

[Taoist Texts]

48 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Or is it that which sits between material and immaterial, and thus bridges the gap Something to think about

What you say is deep but abstract. A concrete example would help. Have you personally participated in a faqi demo?

[wandelaar]

59 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Is it immaterial?

 

Or is it that which sits between material and immaterial, and thus bridges the gap

 

Something to think about

 

Right! A glas can be broken by a specific sound for instance. Now is a sound a material thing or an immaterial thing? It's something in between - a material process but not a thing. So faqi isn't logically impossible, it's just unlikely on the basis of western science. Which makes it all the more interesting if it actually exists.

 

To use legit logic TT should say "qi is a material thing or it is not a material thing". If you do that than the something in between falls under the category of "qi is not a material thing". And than TT's "logic" breaks down.

Edited February 5, 2023 by wandelaar

[Miffymog]

15 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

sure. lets take the faqi healing.

When the healer issues his qi into the patient to heal the patients disease - what is actually happening? The patient is reverted into the pre-disease state right? So the healer turns back the patients bio-clock, effectively rejuvenating him. But such healers for some reason cannot rejuvenate themselves and live forever. This proves that there is no such thing as a transfer of healing qi.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician,_heal_thyself

 

I've just been thinking about this. And for me at the moment, I know that in some situations I can mirror some one else's chi, but after having read what's in this thread, there's possibly no actual transfer going on.

 

I have experienced someone one 'laying their hands on me', and at the time I definitely thought there was chi transference. But now I think about it, they may have merely been inducing a change in the chi I already had.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Miffymog

[mcoolio]

1 hour ago, Shadow_self said:

On the point of good and bad, I do agree

 

Depending on the sensations imo, they can be helpful or harmful (or both)

 

Zifagong is a good example

 

Once it gets going it can be rather exciting to see "oh cool, this **** is working"

 

At the same time, if you are practicing to experience zifagong, you're just creating more layers and clinging in your mind, and really its not going to get to do the work it needs to

 

Well, gotta admit that whatever happened there, could have just as well been induced by my own enthousiasm going into a new system. I do have the impression that everytime I do a new practice, it always starts pretty strong and then weakens a little bit to then slowly grow stronger over time. Still, I am suspicious ...

[Shadow_self]

39 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

What you say is deep but abstract.

 

Perhaps abstract for someone who has not experienced such things?

 

Im not making that accusation here, just trying to categorize for who the term abstract may apply

 

Quote

A concrete example would help.

 

Sure no problem

 

Accumulating an abundance of Qi can help improve the health of your body at the physical level, and it can also help carry you across to spirit, at which point you can start to work with karmic seeds that dictate how the transmigration cycle plays out

 

So the point is, If you think about the physical body at one end of a polarity and spirit at the other, Qi bridges the gap  

 

Does that help? 

 

Quote

Have you personally participated in a faqi demo?

 

There's a rather good reason I have to choose not to open that can of worms here   I do apologize.

 

 I find the whole attraction to the electromagnetic stuff kind of childish if I'm being brutally honest. I know people have taken my words insultingly, even when they are not in the past so let me explain what I mean and hopefully nobody will take it that way

 

When you first encounter this stuff, we could call ourselves an infant/child, It is all new and so  it tends to all be very wonderous and fantastical.  However, if doors start to open for you and you meet a few practitioners, you tend to see that actually, this stuff isn't as weird and rare as you think, a lot of it is just hush hush to be honest.

 

Once you have any real experiences at all (be it with yourself or others) you soon feel rather acclimatised, and the "wonder" fades fast

 

You soon start to grow out of that phase and really, you don't react to such things. No longer a child, but an adult  

 

Ill say one thing. Anything that surprised me is not related to the level of Qi, it is at the level of Shen.

Edited February 5, 2023 by Shadow_self

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

Let’s say i claim that my qi can break a glass. The glass is a material object. It cannot be broken by an immaterial object.  

As @wandelaar explained - that’s simply not the case… a glass can be broken by immaterial ‘objects’ like sound… light (eg a laser)… electromagnetic forces (eg plasma) pressure differentials etc.

 

Using ‘logic’ to rule out possibilities is problematic to say the least…

 

it was logical at some point that the earth is flat (you look in the distance and it looks flat - so it can’t be a sphere, can it!)…

 

or the infamous logic that proves bumble bees couldn’t possibly be able to fly…

 

Quote

Now, qi is certainly something immaterial because otherwise we all would see it.

As @Shadow_self said Qi straddles between the immaterial and material…

 

It’s one of those unusual ‘substances’ that is both just pure ‘change in action’ or information (completely insubstantial, immaterial)… and also a ‘substance’ in that it can have form - it can have a sound, it can be seen (though admittedly not for most people) - it can certainly be felt by everyone - even tasted and smelled - it appears to have weight to it.

 

The issue is that to take the substantial form, it must be cultivated - generated, stored, compressed, thickened etc. Very few people can generate Qi beyond what is normal for a healthy human… A master that can fa qi will generally have the qi ‘amount’ of 4 to 20 healthy humans…

 

During a qi emission - the qi from the one transmitting fills the channels of the recipient - what’s established is a complete connection of two bodies… for the one emitting the other person’s body becomes an extension of their own… just as you’re able to wiggle your toe and feel the texture of the sock against its skin, the one doing the emitting can feel in just as clear and immediate way the other persons body (as if it’s their own body). It’s kinda freaky.

 

You can feel all the contractions, blockages and imbalances in the channels.

 

While you are connected in this way you can make adjustments like adding ‘qi pressure’ into certain channels to open them up… you can tonify certain organs etc.

 

Its not simply that you put gas into the gas tank of the receiver… It’s a lot more nuanced than that.

[Taoist Texts]

44 minutes ago, Miffymog said:

I have experienced someone one 'laying their hands on me', and at the time I definitely thought there was chi transference. But now I think about it, they may have merely been inducing a change in the chi I already had.

Excellent. Thats what i was getting at. Laying hands and tuning the patient is real indeed.

[freeform]

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Excellent. Thats what i was getting at. Laying hands and tuning the patient is real indeed.

That’s simply the interaction of the natural qi field in the hands with the qi field of the body.

 

Though this skill can be enhanced, it’s operating on the Yin qi fields of the body… Anyone with a normal, healthy level of qi can do this within a couple of weeks… (of course there’s some qi transference on the ‘information’ end of the ‘substantial-insubstantial scale’ - that’s how surface level xie qi is passed on and even felt if there’s enough sensitivity)…

 

This is very different to Fa Qi - which requires having ‘full’ Yang Qi… which is rare…

 

‘laying on of hands’ which is the unrefined form of ‘wei qi liao fa’ requires a healthy level of Nei Qi - that’s all. It’s possible for most people with just a bit of training
 

(of course it’s very possible to do harm with it - to yourself and to others… to not do harm, one has to develop dexterity and sensitivity - which takes a ton of training.)

[Taoist Texts]

6 minutes ago, freeform said:

As @wandelaar explained - that’s simply not the case… a glass can be broken by immaterial ‘objects’ like sound… light (eg a laser)… electromagnetic forces (eg plasma) pressure differentials etc.

I take it you both kind gentlemen are not trained engineers like i am;) Not that there is anything wrong with that!

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

Now is a sound a material thing or an immaterial thing? It's something in between - a material process but not a thing.

(sigh)

 

In physics, sound is a vibration that propagates as an acoustic wave, through a transmission medium such as a gas, liquid or solid

 

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

So faqi isn't logically impossible, it's just unlikely on the basis of western science.

On the basis of western science faqi is impossible. Period. Because qi does not exist on the basis of western science. Therefore doing anything with qi is impossible on the basis of western science.Perhaps you see  how  logic works here?

[Cobie]

I can “feel” it. 

[wandelaar]

I find it rather confusing that the meaning of 'fake faqi' now seems to have shifted from pure trickery to real faqi by inappropriate methods. To me fake faqi means using methods that only suggests the projection of qi to spectators who don't know what tricks (such as a concealed static electricity generator) are being used.

Edited February 5, 2023 by wandelaar

[Shadow_self]

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

I take it you both kind gentlemen are not trained engineers like i am;)

 

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

On the basis of western science faqi is impossible. Period. Because qi does not exist on the basis of western science. Therefore doing anything with qi is impossible on the basis of western science.

 

4 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Perhaps you see  how  logic works here?

 

Perhaps you see how the two prior statements create a rather puzzling logic ?  

 

If Qi doesn't exist in western science, then what use is being an engineer?

[freeform]

15 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

I take it you both kind gentlemen are not trained engineers like i am;)

We’re also not trained immortals like you either! 
 

I wonder how your colleagues react to that.

[wandelaar]

@Taoist Texts

 

You would do wel to study some good books on logic and on fallacies of reasoning, and add some substantial knowledge of science (besides sinology) to that. Now you are only making a fool of yourself, although some Bums might be impressed by your knowledge of ancient texts and falsely imagine your proclamations in other fields to be equally valuable. But those are not and in these other fields all you accomplish is provoking silly debates that lead nowhere. Which you apparently relish.

[Taoist Texts]

5 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

If Qi doesn't exist in western science, then what use is being an engineer?

 i  only flashed my creds because there was a claim that immaterial things can break material ones. And breaking things is in my wheelhouse as an engineer. That said, i probably would  never understand what qi really really is without my prior training. Because we are trained to do  basically 2 things: 1 understand how things work 2 make them work.

 

18 minutes ago, freeform said:

I wonder how your colleagues react to that.

eh i dropped out of  that rat race 20 years ago. 

[Shadow_self]

12 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 i  only flashed my creds because there was a claim that immaterial things can break material ones. And breaking things is in my wheelhouse as an engineer.

 

I think the point he was making is that the immaterial can impact the material and vice versa.

 

Moreover, to add to that, the medium through which it does so is energetic

 

Quote

That said, i probably would  never understand what qi really really is without my prior training. Because we are trained to do  basically 2 things: 1 understand how things work 2 make them work.

 

Interesting, what do you think qi is?

 

My understanding is as @freeform described it

[Wu Ming Jen]

The human body is a very sensitive information field. It possesses bio-electricity, bio-luminosity, bio-wave, bio-magnetism and bio-heat. At every instant they all are carried out. To the naked eye the human energetic field cannot be seen, but this type of power is immense, just like the gravitational forces of the ten thousand things.

 

There is not a single moment when this type of field is without effects on human life. 

[freeform]

1 hour ago, Taoist Texts said:

In physics, sound is a vibration that propagates as an acoustic wave, through a transmission medium such as a gas, liquid or solid

What about light?

 

Im no engineer but I imagine it’s possible to break glass with light even in a vacuum - no transmission medium necessary.

Edited February 5, 2023 by freeform

[wandelaar]

Supposing electrical faqi to exist I wonder whether an explanation as a form of biofeedback might be possible. Some creatures such as the electric eel can create powerful electric shocks. Maybe the human body can somehow be trained to do the same on a lesser scale. That's why I don't completely rule out so called electrical faqi on the basis of western science. Furthermore science evolves and what seems highly unlikely now may seem possible some time later.

[wandelaar]

7 minutes ago, freeform said:

What about light?

 

Im no engineer but I imagine it’s possible to break glass with light even in a vacuum - no transmission medium necessary.

 

That's correct. Light can perfectly move through a vacuum.

 

Besides sound is precisely something in between because it needs a material medium to move through without itself being a thing. So it's material but it's not a thing and thus it's no material thing.

 

In the case of light it's more complicated because light sometimes behaves as if it consists of particles and sometimes as if it consists of waves. So its something in between in a different sense.

[freeform]

47 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

i  only flashed my creds because there was a claim that immaterial things can break material ones.

😦

 

Quote

(sigh)

🤨

 

Quote

 

Im no engineer but I imagine it’s possible to break glass with light even in a vacuum - no transmission medium necessary.

🤔
 

Quote

That's correct. Light can perfectly move through a vacuum.

🤔

 

Quote

eh i dropped out of  that rat race 20 years ago.

 

🤭

 

(sigh)