What are the moral precepts of your tradition?

[S:C]

Everybody is invited to share the moral precepts of the tradition, lineage, group or values one is following!

 

It would be nice, if you could name the direction, where you come from (so whether you follow one of the main religious branches or whether you are following the values of a smaller religious group or sect or whether you have set your own set of values for youself and how you deal with other minded people). Feel free to refer to philosophers or scientists also, if that is your basis.

Of special interest would be, whether you have the opinion that those values you follow are truth-apt (not sure about the use of that word, what I mean is, whether those are accessible via proof or reason, so not purely subjective) and if yes, how you would do that.

 

The idea is a collection of the moral principles or rules that are represented here as well as in the world and the ability to attribute those towards the associated (religious or spiritual) branch for educational purposes. Feel free to enhance your list or portrayal with pictures or music, but please refrain from critic, if possible. I'd be glad to hear from you. Thanks!

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by schroedingerscat

[Maddie]

I'm Buddhist and obviously Buddhism has moral precepts but they can all be boiled down to two general rules.

 

1. If it hurts somebody don't do it.

 

2. If it doesn't hurt somebody don't worry about it.

[S:C]

4 hours ago, Maddie said:

I'm Buddhist and obviously Buddhism has moral precepts but they can all be boiled down to two general rules.

 

1. If it hurts somebody don't do it.

 

2. If it doesn't hurt somebody don't worry about it.

Thanks for sharing, @Maddie! Just to clarify: how would you or the Buddhist in you react when a (non-buddhist or a buddhist with wrong/delusional views) bandit or the government would want to force you to do something that you don't believe is morally right? Would that fall under the first general rule?

What I am referring to is a situation for example, when the you would be forced to either react against the perpetrator or someone innocent and doing nothing would lead to your own demise? Accept this then I suppose, am I right? But it would be hurting oneself, no?

 

(Genuine question!)

 

With the moral precepts of Buddhism in general you are referring to the 'eight precepts', I suppose? Would someone who follows those be able to give a good example, - there seem to be so many translations. Is the following a correct representation?

 

Quote

1. I undertake [to observe] the rule of abstinence from taking life
2. I undertake [to observe] the rule of abstinence from taking what is not given
3. I undertake [to observe] the rule of abstinence from unchastity
4. I undertake [to observe] the rule of abstinence from false speech
5. I undertake [to observe] the rule of abstinence from intoxicants which cause a careless frame of mind
6. I undertake [to observe] the rule of abstinence from taking food at the wrong time
7. I undertake [to observe] the rule of abstinence from dancing, music, visiting shows, flowers, make-up, the wearing of ornaments and decorations
8. I undertake [to observe] the rule of abstinence from a tall, high sleeping place.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight_precepts

 

Aren't there also differences between the different Buddhist branches? Theravadan, Mahayana, Vajrayana and so on? They all use the same precepts or different ones?

Edited January 29, 2023 by schroedingerscat
Not intending any copyright infringement.

[Sketch]

Regardless of my philosophical ideals or whatever else has impacted my life, I've never gotten beyond the moral and ethical examples my parents set while raising me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maddie]

57 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

With the moral precepts of Buddhism in general you are referring to the 'eight precepts', I suppose? Would someone who follows those be able to give a good example, - there seem to be so many translations. Is the following a correct representation?

 

Aren't there also differences between the different Buddhist branches? Theravadan, Mahayana, Vajrayana and so on? They all use the same precepts or different ones?

 

The eight precepts are a step above the five precepts. For everybody there's the five precepts and if someone goes on a retreat then they take the eight precepts which are a bit extra.

 

1. Don't kill 

2. Don't steal 

3. No sexual misconduct

4. No wrong speech 

5. No intoxicants 

 

I think the precepts are the same for all branches of Buddhism.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Maddie

[Wilhelm]

I was taught a variation of the ten precepts found in the Dunhuang Manuscripts, but a less strict version all around (moderation of intoxicants vs abstinence, avoiding sexual misconduct vs abstinence etc.)

[Maddie]

1 hour ago, schroedingerscat said:

Thanks for sharing, @Maddie! Just to clarify: how would you or the Buddhist in you react when a (non-buddhist or a buddhist with wrong/delusional views) bandit or the government would want to force you to do something that you don't believe is morally right? Would that fall under the first general rule?

What I am referring to is a situation for example, when the you would be forced to either react against the perpetrator or someone innocent and doing nothing would lead to your own demise? Accept this then I suppose, am I right? But it would be hurting oneself, no?

 

I feel like this question is a bit vague to give a specific answer to. And most hypotheticals like that I would say it's a case-by-case basis. It's also important to remember that in Buddhism the morality is training precepts as opposed to commandments.

 A commandment is basically like saying how dare you break this rule you'll be doomed and it connotates a lot of judgment.

 A training precept is more like you know this would be a good idea to do this in your life will go better if you do.

 There's definitely a difference in tone.

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

I was taught a variation of the ten precepts found in the Dunhuang Manuscripts, but a less strict version all around (moderation of intoxicants vs abstinence, avoiding sexual misconduct vs abstinence etc.)

 

Yes the 10 precepts are a further step up from the eight precepts.

[Maddie]

I think the timing of this post is very interesting because just yesterday I was reading Sallekha Sutta. To summarize this sutta basically the Buddha says that the way to make progress in cultivating the mind is not through meditation but it's through moral precepts.

[S:C]

42 minutes ago, Maddie said:

this question is a bit vague to give a specific answer to. And most hypotheticals like that I would say it's a case-by-case basis.

Agreed, this question seems constructed and at least very abstract. But for the purpose of clarification, I‘d like it to accompany this thread. 

 

Quote

 

1. Don't kill 

2. Don't steal 

3. No sexual misconduct

4. No wrong speech 

5. No intoxicants 

 

I think the precepts are the same for all branches 

Faintly I remember Mahayana having a different view on lies (for the good of others) then the other branches? Can someone verify or deny that? 
 

Case by case, yes, necessity principle (it’s called in criminal law, I guess (?),  might justify or excuse such an action).

Just still curious what opinions on this question would be…

 

How would you react within your precepts or outside of them when someone…

 

Quote

would want to force you to do something that you don't believe is morally right? 

How would your tradition / values solve that problem? Question opened for everyone!

[S:C]

3 hours ago, Wilhelm said:

ten precepts found in the Dunhuang Manuscripts,

Thanks for sharing! 
 

Quote

There is one rule that is divided into Ten Precepts. That rule is the Tao (or Dao).

 

1. Don’t harbor hatred or jealousy in your heart.

Don’t give rise to dark thieving thoughts.

Be reserved in speech and wary of transgressions.

Keep your thoughts on the Divine Law.

2. Maintain a kind heart and do not kill.

Have pity for and support all living beings.

Be compassionate and loving.

Broadly reach out to bring universal redemption to all.

3. Maintain purity and be withdrawing in your social interactions.

Be neither lascivious nor thieving, but constantly harbor good thoughts.

Always take from yourself to aid others.

4. Don’t set your mind on sexual desire or give rise to passion.

Be not licentious in your heart but remain pure and behave prudently.

Make sure your actions are without blemish or stain.

5. Don’t utter bad words.

Don’t use flowery and ornate language.

Be straightforward within and without.

Don’t commit excesses of speech.

6. Don’t take liquor or drug.

Moderate your behavior.

Regulate and harmonize your energy and inner nature.

Don’t let your spirit be diminished.

Don’t commit any of the myriad evils.

7. Don’t be envious if others are better than yourself.

Don’t contend for achievement and fame.

Be retiring and modest in all things.

Put yourself behind to serve the salvation of others.

8. Don’t criticize or debate the scriptures and teachings.

Don’t revile or slander the saintly texts.

Venerate the Divine Law with all your heart.

Always act as if you were face to face with the gods and immortals.

9. Don’t create disturbance through verbal argumentation.

Don’t criticize any believers, be they monks, nuns, male or female laity,

or even heavenly beings. Remember, all censure and hate diminishes your spirit and energy.

10. Be equanimous and of whole heart in all of your actions.

Make sure that all exchanges between humankind

and the divine gods are proper and respectful. - taken from the corresponding Wikipedia article https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_precepts_(Taoism)

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by schroedingerscat
No copyright infringement intended.

[Maddie]

On the topic of morality one thing I find interesting is when I tell people I'm Buddhist they always bring up meditation for the most part and yes that's definitely part of Buddhism but on the other hand there are some suitas like the one I read yesterday the Sallekha Sutta suggest that the main progress is to be found in morality as opposed to meditation. To me that's really interesting because it's so different than how Buddhism is perceived in the West.

[Sketch]

"would want to force you to do something that you don't believe is morally right? "

 

I was a conscientious objector during a draft, if that gives any insight.  

 

[Maddie]

11 minutes ago, Sketch said:

"would want to force you to do something that you don't believe is morally right? "

 

I was a conscientious objector during a draft, if that gives any insight.  

 

 

The pacifism versus self-defense moral dilemma has been one that I've often wrestled with.

[S:C]

29 minutes ago, Sketch said:

conscientious objector during a draft

In easier words, this means you didn’t follow the call to arms by the ruling state because you deemed the cause morally unjust and not forwarding your values? I see, thanks for sharing!

Edited January 29, 2023 by schroedingerscat

[S:C]

13 minutes ago, Maddie said:

The pacifism versus self-defense moral dilemma

This is also interesting, but for the purpose of clarity I‘d like to keep these as two separate problems, because their structure is different.

 

Quote

What I am referring to is a situation for example, when the you would be forced to either react against the perpetrator or someone innocent and doing nothing would lead to your own demise? Accept this then I suppose, am I right? But it would be hurting oneself, no?

 

[S:C]

1 hour ago, Sketch said:

never gotten beyond the moral and ethical examples my parents set while raising me.

Thanks, this is interesting! Would you be interested to share those? It’s probably not a list of precepts and therefore hard to precisely tell those? Or are those rather intuitively ,engrained‘ and arising on the current situation?

Edited January 29, 2023 by schroedingerscat

[Sketch]

20 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

Thanks, this is interesting! Would you be interested to share those? It’s probably not a list of precepts and therefore hard to precisely tell those? Or are those rather intuitively ,engrained‘ and arising on the current situation?

 

 

Mom's pretty churchie, but that's not real morality. The way she interacts with people is.

Dad was a union man, and what was called a "stand up guy". 

 

I guess the most "unusual " stance they took was on the topic of " bearing false witness"...or tattling. Didn't matter what the perpetrator did, the rat was the one got punished.

 

Whenever I've looked at things like precepts or rules of moral conduct, I think my justifying mind assumes it comes down to the same things I was raised with, as if that was automatically common sense.

 

If I were to go on some retreat with special  rules, these would be circumstantial rather than moral...on the same order as following my buddy's orders swiftly if we're on his boat, but treating his words far more casually otherwise. 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Sketch

[doc benway]

The dzogchen approach is unique in that there is a single precept -

remain connected to the mind's nature which is clear and open.

That's it. 

 

Most, if not all, practitioners of dzogchen are exposed to the moral precepts of Bön or Buddhism at some point in their training but when established in the practice of dzogchen, those precepts are not the foundation of our behavior, the natural state alone is. 

And there are, unfortunately, people who use this approach as an excuse to engage in inappropriate, unhealthy, even abusive behavior claiming, maybe even genuinely believing, that as long as they are connected to the natural states (or what they think is the natural state) even such inappropriate behavior is acceptable but this is a critical error. I think this is one important reason why the dzogchen teachings remained highly secret for most of history. The practice can be very easily misunderstood and such misunderstanding can result in serious karmic consequences for oneself and others. There is a saying that while the dzogchen view should be as expansive as the sky, the behavior should be as fine as barley flour. 

 

[S:C]

19 minutes ago, steve said:

There is a saying that while the dzogchen view should be as expansive as the sky, the behavior should be as fine as barley flour. 

Interesting, thanks for sharing! 

Would you be willing to share the precepts of Bön?

[C T]

1 hour ago, Maddie said:

On the topic of morality one thing I find interesting is when I tell people I'm Buddhist they always bring up meditation for the most part and yes that's definitely part of Buddhism but on the other hand there are some suitas like the one I read yesterday the Sallekha Sutta suggest that the main progress is to be found in morality as opposed to meditation. To me that's really interesting because it's so different than how Buddhism is perceived in the West.

My understanding is that Morality, Meditation and Wisdom forms the crux of the whole Noble Eightfold Path. Each strand is equally vital to the holistic development of a sound Buddhist  practitioner. 

 

Sila, or Virtue, derives from Right Speech, Right Action, and Right Livelihood. 

 

Samadhi, meditative equipoise, derives from Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration. 

 

Prajna/panna, wisdom, arises from Right View and Right Intention. 

 

Quote

 

"It's important that one practices sila (virtue), samadhi (concentration) and pañña (wisdom). If one practices only pañña, it's like holding a candle in a breeze; if one practices only samadhi, it's like being in a dark room without a candle to see; and if one practices only sila, it's like wearing a suit of armor without having any idea what it's for. Practicing all three, though, is itself the path to liberation."

 

After all, virtue leads to concentration, which provides the stability of mind that allows wisdom to arise. This wisdom leads to the deepening of virtue, which of course deepens concentration which, in turn, deepens understanding. And so on.

(Ajahn Khamjan) 

 

 

[S:C]

38 minutes ago, Sketch said:

my justifying mind assumes it comes down to the same things I was raised with, as if that was automatically common sense.

 

Thanks for clarifying! 

[old3bob]

if one is fully enlightened they are a living precept so to speak and no longer need reminders (by rote) of situationally and time proven ones in writing, while everyone else can still benefit from or need practice with them...

 

Btw. "crazy" behavior by everyone else could karmically land one in the hell realms.

Edited January 29, 2023 by old3bob

[Maddie]

6 minutes ago, C T said:

My understanding is that Morality, Meditation and Wisdom forms the crux of the whole Noble Eightfold Path. Each strand is equally vital to the holistic development of a sound Buddhist  practitioner. 

 

Yes very good explanation! 

 

I feel like in the West when I mention Buddhism the only thing that most people think of is meditation.

[helpfuldemon]

I can't say I studied moral precepts too much, but I did practice certain ideas from different cultures prior to my entering the Abyss and forming my own sense of morality, which is as follows:

 

I break things down into Good and Evil.  Good is to aid, and Evil is to harm.  Harming someone else's health, wealth or liberty is Evil.  

 

I don't have many rules on sexual activity, other than it needs to be consensual.  I honor the age of 18 as the limit for sexual activity, though I think this is wrong of us.  

 

I don't have any objections to drugs and alcohol, except that for some drugs which are illegal, they support gun toting and violent people when bought, so don't do those.  I don't think it is immoral to do drugs and alcohol.

 

Even though I have come to a body of thought regarding morality, I think that in my past, when I broke these rules, I am paying for them now.  I dream of violent things and am often stolen from in dreams.  I also defecate in my dreams and sometimes it makes me pee the bed because I am dreaming so heavily of urinating that I start to do it in life.  I don't really believe in the forgiveness of Sins, but it might be possible to reverse Karma, IDK.  I'm sort of stuck with what I get for having been so lawless as a child.