What are the moral precepts of your tradition?

[S:C]

3 minutes ago, Nungali said:

How 'people' ( ? )  .... 'came there'  ( ? )  morally  ?

Nah, just seemed like a topic change. 
 

Sorry if I was mistaken about your attribution to Mr. Halls brotherhood. No harm intended! Indeed you maybe just seem to know a lot about them. 

[S:C]

37 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Individually its about 'your path' ,

That is a troubling point: how can it be about autonomy if everywhere one‘s moving one steps unintentionally on someone’s toes e.g. causes suffering? Unavoidable!?
 

What is a correlation or the relationship between autonomy and Dharma?

Anyone else has a strange feeling of the two being unfitting? It seems immoral to strive for autonomy, no? It‘s like reaching for the Promethean fire or flying to close to Ikarus‘ Sun, grasping for the moon, making the gods envious… will stop because nothing of use will follow, but it is so annoying that I cannot state the problem more clearly, I suppose it is not understandable?

Edited January 31, 2023 by schroedingerscat

[S:C]

14 minutes ago, Maddie said:

whether or not it does or does not bring a being suffering. 

Do the sutras include here also the actions toward self? Making oneself suffer is equally bad as anyone else?

[Maddie]

4 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

Do the sutras include here also the actions toward self? Making oneself suffer is equally bad as anyone else?

 

You are a being are you not? 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, schroedingerscat said:

What you mean is, you don’t feel the ‚karmic backlash‘, that is experienced on the emotional level (as remorse, different causal chains thereafter, nightmares etc.) as the effects going against the perceived moral precepts? Or am I wrong here?

 

 

Sorry, I lost the chain of that .  I dont see how it relates to the context of the quote .  I probably started that , I should have said " yes they are "  not "yes it is "  :

 

 

Quote

Of special interest would be, whether you have the opinion that those values you follow are truth-apt (not sure about the use of that word, what I mean is, whether those are accessible via proof or reason, so not purely subjective) and if yes, how you would do that.

 

Yes they are .  They are objective as the results are demonstrable .  Like basic science ..... if you do a, b, c .... and then d .... you will get result x and feel y . I did .... it was right .  That was the case in the system  I followed  and stuck with for some time .... other things I tried did not have the supposed or promised result and seemed  very subjective.

 

Since that was what I was referring to , I dont get your question above about it .  BUT anyway , no I dont feel 'karmic backlash', actually its probably the opposite of that .  No I dont have  " remorse, different causal chains  thereafter,  ( wot ? )   nightmares " - havent had nightmares or even uncomfortable dreams in years and years .  And, for you to ask that in context of this :

 

" as the effects going against the perceived moral precepts "  seems to suggest you think what I do DOES go against perceived moral concepts .

 

I can tell by objective feedback ... not just from others , but whats around me, what happens around me  (others get blown away by that at times ... even my shamanic teacher ) , how animals react to me ,  how little kids respond to me * , what I manifest , how I feel ( and yes ) what I dream , my relationships with 'spirits'  and  my 'Daeva' , etc .

 

* Latest one is a new young woman that turned up with a beautiful little girl , 1/2 Morocco  she is , a little 'dark angel' / ' Berber' .  Her mum says the other day , only after about 3 interactions with the little girl , less than 15 mins  each ; " My daughter cant stop talking about you! I think she's in love with you . " next time I saw them, the little girl takes my hand and places it palm down on top of her head and just stands there .   Okay, I'll beam you some energy .   ... she has a LOT going on there , an interesting little being .  Then Mum wanted a card reading ... wow !  Interesting energy with those two !  reading was amazing  ( turns out Mum went off with some Moroccan women and got initiated off in the wilderness . Later they tattooed her face , on the night the little girl was conceived .  

 

It goes on and on ... and has been for some time .

[S:C]

5 minutes ago, Nungali said:

seems to suggest you think what I do DOES go against perceived moral concepts .

I wouldn’t dare to imply that! Please be assured! 
 

[S:C]

7 minutes ago, Maddie said:

You are a being are you not?

I have been pondering this question for almost three years now. Fair question! 

[Nungali]

  just as I was finishing that  phone went off - text in .  It was the above woman asking if I could mind the girl this arvo ...  typing the text as I typed the above . First time  I been asked that , like I said , we have had only 3 or 4 interactions .

 

- the women are having a group thing happening .... thats how I offer to help the ' women's business ' ( and also offered the same with the indigenous woman's group )  ; "Hey, I can help with that ."

 

" But you are a man . "

 

"  Yeah ... but I can mind the kids for ya while you do it , and make some food so dinner will be done for later . "

 

( I actually like doing that - 'Cancerian'  )

[Maddie]

2 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

I have been pondering this question for almost three years now. Fair question! 

 

well at the very least you have the ability to be aware of and respond to stimuli either pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral. 

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, schroedingerscat said:

Sad, there is still no abrahamic precept list… what do you mean by Levintine? Where does it belong to? Please pardon my ignorance!

 

Originating in the  'Levant ' :

 

" The Levant is an approximate historical geographical term referring to a large area in the Eastern Mediterranean region of Western Asia. In its narrowest sense, which is in use today in archaeology and other cultural contexts, it is equivalent to a stretch of land bordering the Mediterranean in southwestern Asia,"

 

But basically ; Judaism, Christianity , Islam .  Heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism ( from 'Western Asia' ) . Dharmic religions are basically the more eastern ones , Hinduism, Buddhism, etc .  But both streams came out the same source .

 

No  Abrahamic precept list…  ?   try 10 commandments .... then go on to Talmud and the MANY other commandments , laws, etc .

[Nungali]

46 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

It still feels like disillusionment. 
 

What is your opinion on Dharma, if I may ask? Do you believe it exists but doesn’t give us objective precepts or only shows us by consequences?

 

I cant say whether it exists as an independent force in the Universe , as perhaps the ancient Egyptians and others did /do . So not wholly objective ... but it CAN be personally objective if its source is the 'super conscious ' ... but that is a musing on my part .

 

Maybe it IS a Universal force and it does regulate all sorts of stuff .... I'll let you know about that one ....  after I am dead 

[Nungali]

43 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

That is a troubling point: how can it be about autonomy if everywhere one‘s moving one steps unintentionally on someone’s toes e.g. causes suffering? Unavoidable!?
 

What is a correlation or the relationship between autonomy and Dharma?

Anyone else has a strange feeling of the two being unfitting? It seems immoral to strive for autonomy, no? It‘s like reaching for the Promethean fire or flying to close to Ikarus‘ Sun, grasping for the moon, making the gods envious… will stop because nothing of use will follow, but it is so annoying that I cannot state the problem more clearly, I suppose it is not understandable?

 

I have no problem with autonomy  (  informed, uncoerced decision )  and it seems to go along with one's development or unfolding of one's Dharma.

[Nungali]

29 minutes ago, schroedingerscat said:

I wouldn’t dare to imply that! Please be assured! 
 

 

Then I am being confused by your language and syntax .... in a few places .

[S:C]

How could I make moral judgements  while not being clear on my premises? 
 

No, you made several interesting points I will have to ponder. 
 

Maybe I just leave too much chaos with my questions here and should stop that altogether. Didn’t mean to disturb. 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by schroedingerscat

[S:C]

On 31.1.2023 at 9:36 PM, Nungali said:

On 31.1.2023 at 8:25 PM, schroedingerscat said:

Not aimed at anyone in particular, but what is it that makes a precept moral? 

 

The will of the people of the particular culture in question ,  or their  ruling class .

In the sake of clarity: 

 

This seems like you are advocating a relativism of values: it‘s only the will of the people (intersubjective consensus / majority/ sovereign) that gives a set of values the stamp of ‚morality‘.

 

On the other hand you refer to Ma‘at and dharma, as a cosmological (decidingly moral) law that can be recognized intersubjectively (with some differences in details) or objectively (depending on your definition of this). 
 

It seems to me that there is a contradiction there, isn’t there? 
 

Then, you do have a value system of your own, in your Nungali specific way, as you mention. 
 

So those are three different aspects of morality? Can all three be true at the same time? What happens if they do conflict with each other? Personal values? Are those always in concurrence with dharma? How can one be sure? Never? 

 

What’s with experiential gnosis? Why doesn’t that necessarily lead to nihilism? Because of the potentiality of absolute negation that allows for relative values who pave the way for most possible frictionless interaction between humans? 
 

I‘m sorry if this is only halfway understandable, it‘s part bookmark to myself (bc I have a headache) and I‘d be curious if @stirling would like to chime in, please feel invited! 
Would you see the values of Buddhism (which I remember is your tradition) grounded in the texts alone? Do you believe in a natural (moral) cosmological law (despite or because of personal/subjective experiential gnosis)?

 

I‘m sorry if the questions seem to personal, I can reframe or edit them later, but didn’t want to lose them. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by stellarwindbubble

[stirling]

3 hours ago, stellarwindbubble said:

Would you see the values of Buddhism (which I remember is your tradition) grounded in the texts alone? Do you believe in a natural (moral) cosmological law (despite or because of personal/subjective experiential gnosis)?

 

I‘m sorry if the questions seem to personal, I can reframe or edit them later, but didn’t want to lose them. 

 

The ultimate "morality" in Buddhism, for lack of a better word, is Prajna or "Wisdom" as embodied by countless realized beings in a multitude of traditions:

 

Quote

Prajñā (प्रज्ञा) or paññā (𑀧𑀜𑁆𑀜𑀸), is a Buddhist term often translated as "wisdom", "intelligence", or "understanding". It is described in Buddhist texts as the understanding of the true nature of phenomena. In the context of Buddhist meditation, it is the ability to understand the three characteristics of all things: anicca ("impermanence"), dukkha ("dissatisfaction" or "suffering"), and anattā ("non-self"). Mahāyāna texts describe it as the understanding of śūnyatā ("emptiness"). It is part of the Threefold Training in Buddhism, and is one of the ten pāramīs of Theravāda Buddhism and one of the six Mahāyāna pāramitās.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prajñā_(Buddhism)#

 

This is at the "absolute" level - the view from enlightened mind. Actions done by a "person" with this insight are accomplished without a "self" view and are the result solely of causes and conditions and not from the karma (story) of the person. This is precisely the same as having true realization of the Dao, and thus being in alignment with it. 

 

At the "relative" level practitioners are recommended to follow the precepts which are intended to help the monk or student slow the generation of new karma. One is not punished for making a mistake. You just dust yourself off and try to do better. There is also the Bodhisattva, the promise to work to become enlightened for the benefit of all sentient beings.

 

Quote

The Bodhisattva vow is a vow (Sanskrit: praṇidhāna, lit. aspiration or resolution) taken by some Mahāyāna Buddhists to achieve full buddhahood for the sake of all sentient beings. One who has taken the vow is nominally known as a bodhisattva (a being working towards buddhahood). This can be done by venerating all Buddhas and by cultivating supreme moral and spiritual perfection, to be placed in the service of others. In particular, bodhisattvas promise to practice the six perfections of giving, moral discipline, patience, effort, concentration and wisdom in order to fulfill their bodhicitta aim of attaining buddhahood for the sake of all beings.[1]

The vow is commonly taken in a ritual setting, overseen by a senior monastic, teacher or guru.[2] Whereas the prātimokṣa vows cease at death, the bodhisattva vow extends into future lives. The bodhisattva vows should not be confused with the Bodhisattva Precepts (Skt. bodhisattva-śīla), which are specific ethical guidelines for bodhisattvas.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva_vow

 

Both the Precepts and the Bodhisattva Vow are good open-ended behavioral guidance to begin to shape a student (or teacher) continually into a more kind, compassionate, and thoughtful person.

 

I 100% agree with the concept and practice of Prajna. The true values of Buddhism from the Mahayana perspective are embodied in the actions of the Buddha - being free of self, recognizing the struggle and suffering of sentient beings as they interact in the world deluded by their grasping and aversion to empty phenomena , and acting in loving kindness with them because of this. This is not codified specifically in teachings as any kind of mandate, it is just what we see Syd and other buddhas and bodhisattvas do. It is the natural result of complete insight in all non-dual traditions. 

 

I do not believe in any conceptually expressible moral or cosmological law, no, and yes this is because of experiential gnosis, as you say. All conceptual ideas and constructs are stories about reality, not the thing itself. The map is not the territory. This doesn't mean I don't go the speed limit, though.

 

Thank you for your question.

[Daniel]

On 1/31/2023 at 11:55 AM, stellarwindbubble said:

Sad, there is still no abrahamic precept list… 

 

You rang?  

 

I see this is from many months ago, do you still have questions?

 

I'll give the briefest of brief over-view:

 

Judaism:  You. yes you. human.   you are not a god, you are not perfect.  None of those other gods are god either.  God is a mystery, and life is complicated, get used to it.  We're all in this together, let's make the best of it.  Questions will be accepted after a snack.  Pass the rugelach, please.  ~yummy~

 

Christianity:  Love conquers all, don't make things too complicated.  God and salvation are much-much closer than you think.

 

Isalm : How could you say that God is close? God is far far beyond any of us.  But I agree religion shouldn't be so complicated.  Follow the law, stand by your commitments!  That's basically it.  Breaking a commitment to god and others is one of the worst of the worst sins.  Yes, there's a time to fight some people.  They're just plain wrong, especially when they break their contracts.  Arrrgh.  No good.  And if they are aggressors, fight, fight, fight..  But when they cease, cease.  No exceptions.  And at the end of the day, some people are never going to figure things out.  As long as they are not aggressors, don't fight them.  If they are unbelievers and sinners, leave that to god.  god is the very best of everything.... 

 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Daniel