Feel, Flow and Follow - Qi, De and Dao

[dwai]

In the Temple style tai chi and daoist meditation system, the process outlined is as follows -

 

• Learn to feel qi 
• Learn to flow the qi
• Connect with the Dao and follow how IT flows 

 

There are a few reasons why it is done that way. According to the Master of this tradition, our life force (qi) is subtle and is missed in plain sight due to the less-subtle things that constantly keep happening - both physical and mental activities. When we use strength, we lose the sensitivity we were born with to feel this life force. It is like the signal within us is masked by a louder, noisier signal.  Similarly, the mind, which is attuned to grasping at gross objects outside with the help of our senses, cannot sense this subtle flow within us. So we must eschew strength and outwardly focused mental activities to begin feeling the subtle signal within.

After we have learned to recognize and become familiar with that subtle signal of our life force, we must learn how to flow it. We are making it stronger by paying attention to and exercising it. With time and diligent practice, it will become strong enough that we can reconnect with the piece of Dao embedded within us - the De. This De is our way to connect to the Dao. Once we learn to connect with the Dao, we must eschew our volition to allow the Dao to guide us. We learn to follow it. The more we follow it, the better we get at letting go of our "artificial" mental activities and surrendering to it. 

 

 

 

[Wilhelm]

That's an impressive jump from #2 to #3!

 

How does someone in Temple style Tai Chi know they've found the De?

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

That's an impressive jump from #2 to #3!

 

How does someone in Temple style Tai Chi know they've found the De?

When they recognize that which gives them the ability to think, feel, hear, taste, smell, see. 

[Mark Foote]

On 1/31/2023 at 7:29 AM, dwai said:

According to the Master of this tradition, our life force (qi) is subtle and is missed in plain sight due to the less-subtle things that constantly keep happening - both physical and mental activities. When we use strength, we lose the sensitivity we were born with to feel this life force. It is like the signal within us is masked by a louder, noisier signal.  Similarly, the mind, which is attuned to grasping at gross objects outside with the help of our senses, cannot sense this subtle flow within us. So we must eschew strength and outwardly focused mental activities to begin feeling the subtle signal within.

 

Here’s a summary of a study that confirms that activity is generated by the iliosacral ligaments:

 

This study (research by Indahl, A., et al.) established that the ligamento-muscular reflex existed between the sacroiliac joint and muscles that attach to the bones that make up the sacroiliac joint. (The study’s authors) suggested that the sacroiliac joint was a regulator of pelvic and paraspinal muscles and, thereby, influences posture and lumbar segmental stability. 

 

(Serola Biomechanics website summary of Indahl, A., et al., Sacroiliac joint involvement in activation of the porcine spinal and gluteal musculature. Journal of Spinal Disorders, 1999. 12(4): p. 325-30; https://europepmc.org/article/med/10451049
https://www.serola.net/research-category/the-nutation-lesion-2/ligamento-muscular-reflex/)

 

The stretch allowed by a ligament is slight (less than 6% of the total length of the ligament [https://web.mit.edu/tkd/stretch/stretching_3.html]), and yet as the study by Indahl and associates showed, even a slight stretch can induce muscular activity.

 

I think, based on my own experience, that the stretch of ligaments anywhere in the body can generate muscular contraction, and through reciprocal innervation a rhythm of contraction and relaxation.  Here's Dr. John Upledger, describing his experience of "reciprocal innervation" while lying on salt water in an isolation tank:
 

At some point my body began to make fish-like movements, as though my pelvis and legs were the lower part of a fish moving its tail from side to side. This movement was nice and easy. The neurophysiologist in me related these movements to an expression of what we call ‘reciprocal innervation’. The principle here is that, when your trunk is bent to the side in one direction past a certain threshold, the muscles on the other side of the trunk contract. In doing so, the nerve impulses are diverted from the side to which you are bent, and those muscles relax. Your trunk now bends in the opposite direction until that side-bending threshold is passed. The nerve impulses are then diverted again to the opposite side, causing muscle contraction and side bending in that direction.

 

 (“Your Inner Physician and You: Craniosacral Therapy and Somatoemotional Release”, John E. Upledger, p. 165)

 

Quote

After we have learned to recognize and become familiar with that subtle signal of our life force, we must learn how to flow it. We are making it stronger by paying attention to and exercising it. With time and diligent practice, it will become strong enough that we can reconnect with the piece of Dao embedded within us - the De. This De is our way to connect to the Dao. Once we learn to connect with the Dao, we must eschew our volition to allow the Dao to guide us. We learn to follow it. The more we follow it, the better we get at letting go of our "artificial" mental activities and surrendering to it. 
 

A trick and a half, to describe surrendering volition in activity and "flowing" qi in the same breath!  Best I can do:
 

The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.

... If the activity of the body follows solely from the location of attention, a presence of mind is possible such that no matter where the breath shifts the location of attention, the activity of the body follows solely from that singular location. Presence of mind as the location of attention shifts “suffuses (one’s) body with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind so that there is not one particle of the body that is not pervaded with purity by the pureness of (one’s) mind” [as Gautama described it].

(More of What Shunryu Suzuki Said, bracketed material added)

My take:
 

A central theme of Gautama’s teaching was the cessation of “determinate thought” in action, meaning the cessation of the exercise of will or volition in action. A cessation of the exercise of will could be attained, said Gautama, through the induction of various successive states of concentration. As to the initial induction of concentration, Gautama declared that “making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind”.
 

I begin with making the surrender of volition in activity related to the movement of breath the object of thought. For me, that necessitates thought applied and sustained with regard to relaxation of the activity of the body, with regard to the exercise of calm in the stretch of ligaments, with regard to the detachment of mind, and with regard to the presence of mind. I find that a presence of mind from one breath to the next can precipitate “one-pointedness of mind”, but laying hold of “one-pointedness of mind” requires a surrender of willful activity in the body much like falling asleep.
 

(Response)

Edited February 2, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Invisible Acropolis]

15 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

My take:
 

A central theme of Gautama’s teaching was the cessation of “determinate thought” in action, meaning the cessation of the exercise of will or volition in action. A cessation of the exercise of will could be attained, said Gautama, through the induction of various successive states of concentration. As to the initial induction of concentration, Gautama declared that “making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness of mind”.
 

I begin with making the surrender of volition in activity related to the movement of breath the object of thought. For me, that necessitates thought applied and sustained with regard to relaxation of the activity of the body, with regard to the exercise of calm in the stretch of ligaments, with regard to the detachment of mind, and with regard to the presence of mind. I find that a presence of mind from one breath to the next can precipitate “one-pointedness of mind”, but laying hold of “one-pointedness of mind” requires a surrender of willful activity in the body much like falling asleep.
 

(Response)

 

Have you written anything about this in reference to the autonomic nervous system vs parasympathetic vs somatic? 

 

I understand what you are getting at and I do agree with you that this point is a key to cultivation practice in general.  Breathing is one of those things that is both conscious and unconscious, by default.  Unlike your heart pumping blood, or your liver filtering blood, for example.

[dwai]

16 hours ago, Mark Foote said:

A trick and a half, to describe surrendering volition in activity and "flowing" qi in the same breath!  Best I can do:

This stage is to not "flow" the Qi but to Follow the Dao. The flow part can't eschew volition but is the training part of the practice. 

[Mark Foote]

8 hours ago, dwai said:

This stage is to not "flow" the Qi but to Follow the Dao. The flow part can't eschew volition but is the training part of the practice. 
 

 

My go-to for the classics of Tai Chi is Professor Cheng Man Ch’ing

Wherever the eyes concentrate, the spirit reaches and the ch’i follows. The ch’i can mobilize the body, but you need not will the ch’i in order to move it. The spirit can carry the ch’i with it.

 

(Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on T’ai Chi Ch’uan, by Professor Cheng Man Ch’ing, translated by Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, pg 80, ©1985 by Juliana T. Cheng)
 

I'm working on finding an upright posture, primarily when I sit.  For me, that involves relaxing until I discover the stretch of ligaments that gives rise to the activity necessary to breathe, detaching from my thoughts of the moment, and realizing some presence of mind with the point of balance held by the breath.  

Tohei spoke of a centrifugal force, Omori Sogen talked about the balance of centrifugal and centripetal forces, but I believe Tohei's "extend ki" was based around a singularity and extending the spirit of compassion around the world:
 

… the spirit of aikido can only be love and harmony. Aikido was born in accordance with the principles and workings of the Universe.

 

(Morihei Ueshiba, https://aikidojournal.com/2016/09/24/interview-with-morihei-ueshiba-and-kisshomaru-ueshiba/)

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

9 hours ago, Invisible Acropolis said:

 

Have you written anything about this in reference to the autonomic nervous system vs parasympathetic vs somatic? 

 

I understand what you are getting at and I do agree with you that this point is a key to cultivation practice in general.  Breathing is one of those things that is both conscious and unconscious, by default.  Unlike your heart pumping blood, or your liver filtering blood, for example.

Brad Warner's teacher, Gudo Nishijimi, was very big on balance of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems as the key to zazen.

Not clear to me what point you're referring to when you say, "this point"--are you talking about "laying hold of “one-pointedness of mind” requires a surrender of willful activity in the body much like falling asleep"?

I have found some science to tell me what I particularly need to pay attention to with regard to my posture, but without the rhythm of the four fields including the relinquishment of volition, the science doesn't mean much.

You can read the science I find most important here.

[dwai]

56 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

My go-to for the classics of Tai Chi is Professor Cheng Man Ch’ing

Wherever the eyes concentrate, the spirit reaches and the ch’i follows. The ch’i can mobilize the body, but you need not will the ch’i in order to move it. The spirit can carry the ch’i with it.

 

(Cheng Tzu’s Thirteen Treatises on T’ai Chi Ch’uan, by Professor Cheng Man Ch’ing, translated by Benjamin Pang Jeng Lo and Martin Inn, pg 80, ©1985 by Juliana T. Cheng)
 

this is a great book - I have a copy as well. The follow stage is beyond ‘the shen guiding the qi’ stage vis looking”.  The dao takes over. Movement-stillness happens spontaneously. 

56 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

 

I'm working on finding an upright posture, primarily when I sit.  For me, that involves relaxing until I discover the stretch of ligaments that gives rise to the activity necessary to breathe, detaching from my thoughts of the moment, and realizing some presence of mind at the point of balance held by the breath.  
 

I found that a good way is to stretch the joints and spinal vertebrae open, suspend the crown point. 

56 minutes ago, Mark Foote said:

Tohei spoke of a centrifugal force, Omori Sogen talked about the balance of centrifugal and centripetal forces, but I believe Tohei's "extend ki" was based around a singularity and extending the spirit of compassion around the world:
 

… the spirit of aikido can only be love and harmony. Aikido was born in accordance with the principles and workings of the Universe.

 

(Morihei Ueshiba, https://aikidojournal.com/2016/09/24/interview-with-morihei-ueshiba-and-kisshomaru-ueshiba/)

 

 

 

 

Aikido is interesting, but deficient as it is practiced today imho. I gave it up after I found my Tai chi teacher. Incidentally so did my aikido teacher. 

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, dwai said:

this is a great book - I have a copy as well. The follow stage is beyond ‘the shen guiding the qi’ stage vis looking”.  The dao takes over. Movement-stillness happens spontaneously. 
 

 

I was questioning "The flow part can't eschew volition but is the training part of the practice."  I would agree, there may come a time when contact in the senses outside the range of consciousness enters into the location of attention, and the body turns around the location of attention without volition.  I know in Aikido they do a blindfold training, but is that volition in the flow part or the body turning without volition?  

I've always had some difficulty with Tohei's "extend ki", as a practical matter. 

 

Quote

I found that a good way is to stretch the joints and spinal vertebrae open, suspend the crown point. 
 

 

For me, I do stretch the hamstrings.  At this point I can only sit half-lotus, and sometimes I have to go to Burmese. 

I have had no choice but to try to understand the actual mechanics of posture.  That said, I recognize that the breath necessitates the placement of attention at least some of the time, and that with relaxation the stretch of ligaments can be the source of the activity of breath. 

Rather than suspend the headtop, I focus on the breath moving through the skull behind the nose--that has pretty much the same effect, if that awareness can be combined with awareness of the way the weight of the body returns from the stretch in ligaments of the legs (principally the ilio-tibial tract) to the stretch of the fascia behind the sacrum.  The stretch behind the sacrum combines with the press of the extensors rearward behind the sacrum in an upright posture, and on a good day the stretch behind the sacrum and the breath at the bones behind the nose allows me to relax muscles in the lower abdomen in the movement of breath.  I'm sitting with the left leg up more than I used to, the coordination seems to be easier that way.

 

Quote

Aikido is interesting, but deficient as it is practiced today imho. I gave it up after I found my Tai chi teacher. Incidentally so did my aikido teacher. 

I don't blame you for giving up Aikido (or your Aikido teacher, either).  I did myself harm just trying to sit seiza on the mat, and that after years of judo.  Apart from that, though, I could do the techniques but not as a matter of extending ki--that's why I'm careful now about what it really means.  

I know Cheng Man Ch'ing spoke of nine levels in the cultivation of ch'i, and the first two levels of the third stage involved feeling strength from the ligaments and comprehending someone else's strength from ligaments.  The final level, in the translation by Ben Lo came out "omnipotence", but in the translation by Doug Wile, the translation is "perfect clarity" (Master Cheng's Thirteen Chapters on T’ai Chi Ch’uan, by Cheng Man Ch’ing, translated by Douglas Wile, p 57).  I'm sticking with that, and the spirit mobilizing the ch'i in that split-second of perfect clarity.

[Invisible Acropolis]

On 2/2/2023 at 5:00 PM, Mark Foote said:

Not clear to me what point you're referring to when you say, "this point"-

 

Yes, well I did not explicitly state it in my response, but rather simply alluded.

 

Namely - the harmonious blending of "consciousness" and "unconsciousness" within the physical body, into something "more than the sum of its parts".

 

On 2/2/2023 at 5:00 PM, Mark Foote said:

I have found some science to tell me what I particularly need to pay attention to with regard to my posture, but without the rhythm of the four fields including the relinquishment of volition, the science doesn't mean much.

 

Nothing means anything without context - for example:

Quote

"the rhythm of the four fields including the relinquishment of volition"

doesnt mean anything to me at all.  Whereas at least I have some grasp of the word "science" already.

 

 

On 2/2/2023 at 5:00 PM, Mark Foote said:

Brad Warner's teacher, Gudo Nishijimi, was very big on balance of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems as the key to zazen.

 

Zazen was a favored practice of many samurai, so this makes a lot of sense.  I am not familiar with Gudo Nishijimi, but unfortunately I consider Brad Warner as an obnoxious poser... at best.  

[Mark Foote]

4 hours ago, Invisible Acropolis said:

 

Nothing means anything without context - for example:

"the rhythm of the four fields including the relinquishment of volition"

 

doesn't mean anything to me at all.  

 

 

The four fields:

 

Therefore… be ye lamps unto yourselves. Be ye a refuge unto yourselves. Betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth as a lamp. Hold fast as a refuge to the Truth. Look not for refuge to any one besides yourselves. And how… is (one) to be a lamp unto (oneself), a refuge unto (oneself), betaking (oneself) to no external refuge, holding fast to the Truth as a lamp, holding fast as a refuge to the Truth, looking not for refuge to any one besides (oneself)?
 

Herein, … (one) continues, as to the body, so to look upon the body that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world. As to feelings… moods… ideas, (one) continues so to look upon each that (one) remains strenuous, self-possessed, and mindful, having overcome both the hankering and the dejection common in the world.

 

(Digha Nikaya ii 100, Pali Text Society DN Vol. II pg 108; Rhys Davids’ “body, feelings, moods, and ideas”, above, rendered by Horner as “body, feelings, mind, and mental states”)
 

Gautama offered sixteen elements of mindfulness, four in each of the above four fields, as something "peaceful in itself" and "a pleasant way of living, besides" (see the chapter on in-breathing and out-breathing in SN V).  He said that the sixteen were his way of living, especially in the rainy season.  

The 8th element of Gautama's 16 was translated as "calming the mental factors" by F. L. Woodward, and as "tranquillizing the activity of thought" by I. B. Horner (both Pali text society translators).  Buddhaghosa has a list of the "mental factors", but I don't trust Buddhaghosa on that. 

According to Cheng Man Ch'ing, the Tai Chi classics describe seated meditation as “straightening the chest and sitting precariously” (“Master Cheng’s Thirteen Chapters on T’ai-Chi Ch’uan”, by Cheng Man-Ch’ing, translated by Douglas Wile, pg 21.).  That points to the senses involved in balance as the "mental factors" that need calming (equalibrioception, proprioception, graviception, and oculoception).  For me, I must pay particular attention to calming perceptions of stretch in the ligaments relative to activity and balance.

The 15th element of Gautama's 16 was:

Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out.

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V p 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward)

 

Cessation of action of the body:  the moment when the movement of breath places attention, volition ceases, and the activity of the body follows solely from the placement of attention.

"The rhythm of the four fields including the relinquishment of volition".

I took what I perceived to be the active element in each of the four fields of mindfulness, for my summary:
 

I begin with making the surrender of volition in activity related to the movement of breath the object of thought. For me, that necessitates thought applied and sustained with regard to relaxation of the activity of the body, with regard to the exercise of calm in the stretch of ligaments, with regard to the detachment of mind, and with regard to the presence of mind. I find that a presence of mind from one breath to the next can precipitate “one-pointedness of mind”, but laying hold of “one-pointedness of mind” requires a surrender of willful activity in the body much like falling asleep.

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Invisible Acropolis]

1 hour ago, Mark Foote said:

Gautama offered sixteen elements of mindfulness, four in each of the above four fields, as something "peaceful in itself" and "a pleasant way of living, besides" (see the chapter on in-breathing and out-breathing in SN V).  He said that the sixteen were his way of living, especially in the rainy season.  

 

Yes, that is a great Sutra. 

 

Quote

This is the only way, monks, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the four foundations of mindfulness. What are the four?

...

Verily, monks, whosoever practices these four foundations of mindfulness in this manner for seven years, then one of these two fruits may be expected by him: highest knowledge (arahantship) here and now, or if some remainder of clinging is yet present, the state of non-returning.

 

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.nysa.html

 

However I have not heard it referred to as the "four fields".  Where does this terminology originate?

[Mark Foote]

20 hours ago, Invisible Acropolis said:

 

However I have not heard it referred to as the "four fields".  Where does this terminology originate?

 

Yer right, I'm not seeing the four referred to as fields.  "Four applications of mindfulness", as in:

 

Mindfulness of in-breathing and out-breathing... if developed and made much of, brings to fulfillment the four applications of mindfulness...

 

("Anapanasatisutta", tr I. B. Horner, MN III 82, Pali Text Society MN V3 p 124)

 

"Four arisings of mindfulness":

 

Intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing, Ananda, is the one state which, if cultivated and made much of, brings the four arisings of mindfulness to completion.

("The Great Chapter: About In-Breathing and Out-Breathing", tr F. L. Woodward, SN V 328, Pali Text Society SN V5 p 292)

 

Four arisings of mindfulness, I like that.

The sixteen elements of Gautama's "intent concentration on in-breathing and out-breathing" are described in the section of SN V quoted immediately above.  He ascribes the first four to mindfulness of the body, the second four to mindfulness of feelings, the third quartet to mindfulness of mind, and the final four to mindfulness of the state of mind.  He also mentions that the concentration was his way of living before enlightenment (as the Bodhisattva) and after enlightenment (the Tathagatha's way of living).

That's a peculiar chapter.  The account of scores of monks a day committing suicide because Gautama recommended meditation on "The Unlovely" (aspects of the body) is in that chapter.  I like to think that he particularly recommended the "intent contemplation" after that incident.  Says to me that it's not necessary to focus on enlightenment, there's another focus that will lead to enlightenment if that's in the cards but is a better place to put effort since enlightenment might not be in the cards.

There is reference to the "six sensory fields" in Gautama's description of his enlightenment:

 

…[an individual] comprehends thus, ‘This concentration of mind … is effected and thought out. But whatever is effected and thought out, that is impermanent, it is liable to stopping.’ When [the individual] knows this thus, sees this thus, [their] mind is freed from the canker of sense-pleasures and [their] mind is freed from the canker of becoming and [their] mind is freed from the canker of ignorance. In freedom is the knowledge that [one] is freed and [one] comprehends: “Destroyed is birth, brought to a close the (holy)-faring, done is what was to be done, there is no more of being such or so’. [They] comprehend thus: “The disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of sense-pleasures do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of becoming do not exist here; the disturbances there might be resulting from the canker of ignorance do not exist here. And there is only this degree of disturbance, that is to say the six sensory fields that, conditioned by life, are grounded on this body itself.” 

("Mahasunnatasutta", MN III 108-109, Pali Text Society Vol III p 151-152)

 

 

Edited February 5, 2023 by Mark Foote

[Mark Foote]

On 1/31/2023 at 7:29 AM, dwai said:

After we have learned to recognize and become familiar with that subtle signal of our life force, we must learn how to flow it. We are making it stronger by paying attention to and exercising it. With time and diligent practice, it will become strong enough that we can reconnect with the piece of Dao embedded within us - the De. This De is our way to connect to the Dao. Once we learn to connect with the Dao, we must eschew our volition to allow the Dao to guide us. We learn to follow it. The more we follow it, the better we get at letting go of our "artificial" mental activities and surrendering to it. 

 

So, when you practice zazen, your mind should be concentrated in your breathing and this kind of activity is the fundamental activity of the universal being. If so, how you should use your mind is quite clear. ...
 

(Shunryu Suzuki lecture, Breathing, “Thursday Morning Lectures”, November 4th 1965, Los Altos; emphasis added)

 

The mind is “concentrated in the breathing” when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention. If the presence of mind continues the placement of attention by the movement of breath, then the role of the mind is clear–that’s the way I read the transcript.

(What Shunryu Suzuki Actually Said)

 

I think it's important to be positive about thoughts, if only to be positive about the fact that they are a part of our nature and we still have that. 

Gautama's "mindfulness of mind", as translated by F. L. Woodward:

 

"Aware of mind I shall breathe in. Aware of mind I shall breathe out."

 

(One) makes up one’s mind:

 

“Gladdening my mind I shall breathe in. Gladdening my mind I shall breathe out.

Composing my mind I shall breathe in. Composing my mind I shall breathe out.

Detaching my mind I shall breathe in. Detaching my mind I shall breathe out.

 

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V pg 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward; masculine pronouns replaced)

 

[awaken]

Buddha never called attention to any technique of breathing. Breathing is just one of all the reactions of the body. The Buddha taught to be aware of all the reactions of the body, one of which is breathing.

That is, breathing is one of all bodily reactions. But many people regard breathing as the only thing, which seriously distorts the true meaning of Buddha.

 

佛陀從來沒有要求將注意力放在呼吸的任何技巧上。呼吸只是身體所有反應當中的其中一個，佛陀教的是覺知所有身體的反應，其中一個是呼吸。

也就是呼吸是所有身體反應當中的其中一項。但是許多人卻把呼吸當成唯一，這就很嚴重了扭曲了佛陀的真義了。
 

What the Buddha kept repeating in the Agama Sutra should be seeking and waiting.

 

佛陀不斷在阿含經重複的應該是有尋有伺

 

 

So when your practice method is [focusing on breathing], you have deviated from the method taught by the Buddha.

 

所以當你的練習方法是[專注於呼吸]，你就已經脫離了佛陀所教的方法了。

 

 

So when your practice method is [focusing on breathing], you have deviated from the method taught by the Buddha.

What the Buddha taught, first was [focusing on the body], then [focusing on the reactions of the body], then [focusing on the mind], then [focusing on phenomena in the dharma realm].

He never said [focus on breathing]

And [focusing on the body] is conditional, it must slowly evolve from seeking and waiting to no seeking and have waiting, and then evolve to no seeking and no waiting.

There is an evolutionary process in between.

But many people ignore the evolutionary process taught by the Buddha, but constantly emphasize breathing techniques, which is a very serious distortion.

 

所以當你的練習方法是[專注於呼吸]，你就已經脫離了佛陀所教的方法了。

佛陀所教的，一開始是[專注於身體]，然後是[專注於身體的反應]，然後是[專注於心]，然後是[專注於法界現象]。

他從來沒有說過[專注於呼吸]

而且[專注於身體]是有條件的，必須是從seeking and waiting慢慢演化成no seeking and have waiting，然後在演化成no seeking and no waiting。

這中間是有演化的程序的。

但是很多人把佛陀所教的演化程序給忽略了，卻不斷的強調呼吸技巧，這是非常嚴重的扭曲。
 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by awaken

[dwai]

You clearly don’t know about anapanasati in that case @awaken

 

In any case, I don’t think you can add any value to this discussion. So please make yourself scarce. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by dwai

[awaken]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana_Sutta

 

Supplementary Note
Here is a table that explains the definition of body contemplation. It is obvious that breathing is one of them, not the only one.

 

補充說明
這裡有一個表格，說明了身念處的定義，可以很明顯的看出，呼吸只是其中一項，而並非唯一。

 

In addition, according to Lu Zu's definition, the beginning of Tao is not from Qi, but from metal and wood (small medicine).
Therefore, treating Qi as the beginning of Dao is also a distortion of Dao.

 

另外根據呂祖的定義，道的開始不是從氣，而是從金和木(小藥)。
所以把氣當成道的開始，也是一種對道的扭曲。

 

 

"上德以道全其形，是其純乾之未破；下德以術延其命，乃配坎離而方成。"

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by awaken

[dwai]

11 hours ago, awaken said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana_Sutta

 

Supplementary Note
Here is a table that explains the definition of body contemplation. It is obvious that breathing is one of them, not the only one.

 

補充說明
這裡有一個表格，說明了身念處的定義，可以很明顯的看出，呼吸只是其中一項，而並非唯一。

 

no one said breathing is the only one. Anapanasati is preparatory for shamatha-Vipassana. 

11 hours ago, awaken said:

 

In addition, according to Lu Zu's definition, the beginning of Tao is not from Qi, but from metal and wood (small medicine).
Therefore, treating Qi as the beginning of Dao is also a distortion of Dao.

 

另外根據呂祖的定義，道的開始不是從氣，而是從金和木(小藥)。
所以把氣當成道的開始，也是一種對道的扭曲。

 

 

"上德以道全其形，是其純乾之未破；下德以術延其命，乃配坎離而方成。"

 

Dao has a beginning? If so, then it must have an end. If that is the case, then it is not the eternal/real dao. And it can certainly be spoken about. 

[Cobie]

19 hours ago, dwai said:

… please make yourself scarce. 

Are you acting as admod here?

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Cobie

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Cobie said:

Are you acting as admod here?

 

 

Only as the OP. Awaken’s posts are noise to me, and I don’t welcome them as the OP, which is my prerogative. 

[Cobie]

2 minutes ago, dwai said:

Only as the OP. …

Thanks for your reply.

[Mark Foote]

On 2/9/2023 at 3:49 PM, awaken said:

Buddha never called attention to any technique of breathing. Breathing is just one of all the reactions of the body. The Buddha taught to be aware of all the reactions of the body, one of which is breathing.

That is, breathing is one of all bodily reactions. But many people regard breathing as the only thing, which seriously distorts the true meaning of Buddha.

 

佛陀從來沒有要求將注意力放在呼吸的任何技巧上。呼吸只是身體所有反應當中的其中一個，佛陀教的是覺知所有身體的反應，其中一個是呼吸。

也就是呼吸是所有身體反應當中的其中一項。但是許多人卻把呼吸當成唯一，這就很嚴重了扭曲了佛陀的真義了。
 

What the Buddha kept repeating in the Agama Sutra should be seeking and waiting.

 

佛陀不斷在阿含經重複的應該是有尋有伺

 

So when your practice method is [focusing on breathing], you have deviated from the method taught by the Buddha.

 

所以當你的練習方法是[專注於呼吸]，你就已經脫離了佛陀所教的方法了。

 

So when your practice method is [focusing on breathing], you have deviated from the method taught by the Buddha.

What the Buddha taught, first was [focusing on the body], then [focusing on the reactions of the body], then [focusing on the mind], then [focusing on phenomena in the dharma realm].

He never said [focus on breathing]

And [focusing on the body] is conditional, it must slowly evolve from seeking and waiting to no seeking and have waiting, and then evolve to no seeking and no waiting.

There is an evolutionary process in between.

But many people ignore the evolutionary process taught by the Buddha, but constantly emphasize breathing techniques, which is a very serious distortion.

 

Awaken, I apologize for my lack of literacy, in Chinese.  I owe so much to the cultures of India and China, but I'm stuck in English at this point, and reliant on the skill of translators.

Here are the first four elements of Gautama's "way of living", mindfulness in sixteen elements:

 

… Setting mindfulness in front of (oneself), (one) breathes in mindfully and mindfully breathes out.

 

As (one) draws in a long breath (one) knows: A long breath I draw in. [As (one) breathes out a long breath (one) knows: I breathe out a long breath.] As (one) draws in a short breath (one) knows: A short breath I draw in. As (one) breathes out a short breath (one) knows: I breathe out a short breath.

 

Thus (one) makes up (one’s) mind:

 

I shall breathe in, feeling it go through the whole body. Feeling it go through the whole body I shall breath out.

 

Calming down the bodily aggregate I shall breathe in. Calming down the bodily aggregate I shall breathe out. 

 

(SN V 312, Pali Text Society Vol V pg 275-276; tr. F. L. Woodward; masculine pronouns replaced, re-paragraphed)

 

 

I believe that's the same in both Satipatthana and Anapanasati.

I have summarized what I considered to be the actionable elements of the sixteen, for my own practice:

 

I begin with making the surrender of volition in activity related to the movement of breath the object of thought.  For me, that necessitates thought applied and sustained with regard to relaxation of the activity of the body, with regard to the exercise of calm in the stretch of ligaments, with regard to the detachment of mind, and with regard to the presence of mind.  I find that a presence of mind from one breath to the next can precipitate “one-pointedness of mind”, but laying hold of “one-pointedness of mind” requires a surrender of willful activity in the body much like falling asleep.
 

"Calming down the bodily aggregate" I take as "relaxation of the activity of the body".

"Calm in the stretch of ligaments" is a necessary part of my practice.  The actual element in the sixteen is:

 

Calming down the mental factors I shall breathe in. Calming down the mental factors I shall breathe out.

 

(Ibid)

 

 

Woodward translates "mental factors", and the later Horner translates "activity of thought".  I know Buddhaghosa has a list of mental factors, but I don't trust Buddhaghosa.  From my own experience, I believe the reference is to the inclusion of sense contact in "one-pointedness of mind", and in particular the senses associated with balance (equalibrioception, proprioception, graviception, and oculoception--so, balance, placement of parts, gravity, and eyes).  Since the aim is the relinquishment of volition in the activity of breath, I look to realize activity out of the stretch of ligaments, which makes Gautama's instruction essentially the exercise of calm in the experience of the stretch of ligaments.  

Turns out there is science now behind activity in the muscles of the body generated by the stretch of ligaments, research done in India with regard to the sacroiliac ligaments in pigs.  Ligaments only stretch about 6%, and I believe a certain tautness is required before the stretch generates activity, and reciprocal activity in the musculature ensues.

The four elements concerned with state of mind, which you have described as "focusing on phenomena in the dharma realm", in Woodward's translation are:

 

(One) makes up one’s mind:

 

Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe in. Contemplating impermanence I shall breathe out.

 

Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe in. Contemplating dispassion I shall breathe out.

 

Contemplating cessation I shall breathe in. Contemplating cessation I shall breathe out.

 

Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe in. Contemplating renunciation I shall breathe out.

 

(Ibid)

 

 

I included that in my summary as "thought applied and sustained with regard to the presence of mind".   I do so because, as I wrote on my own site:

 

The presence of mind can utilize the location of attention to maintain the balance of the body and coordinate activity in the movement of breath, without a particularly conscious effort to do so. There can also come a moment when the movement of breath necessitates the placement of attention at a certain location in the body, or at a series of locations, with the ability to remain awake as the location of attention shifts retained through the exercise of presence.
 

(Common Ground)

 

 

Action purely from the location of single-pointedness of mind, without volition, I find through thought applied and sustained to presence of mind.  Action without volition is cessation,  in my book.

So you're right, there's a rhythm in mindfulness and it's not all mindfulness of the body, but if the initial aim is the relinquishment of volition in the action of inhalation and exhalation, the action of breath is always present.  
 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Mark Foote

[dwai]

Breath, mind and prana/qi are tied together. For most people, regulating the mind is not easy, because their identities are so tightly woven into their minds. So we start with the breath. Regulate the breath —> regulate the qi —> regulate/still the mind.

 

With practice we can go directly to the mind level without needing to invoke the breath and the qi. 

[Sahaja]

Qi for me is not subtle at all and feels more like currents of water moving than breath. I find that it is actually more constant as a point of focus than the breath because it doesn’t seem to automatically have long pauses like the breath does when actions of the mind and body slow down. Qi movement is more machine like for me.