The illusion of time.

[sifu wolf]

A brief note on how quickly such illusions develop. If one were to, hypothetically have the audacity, to fragment the tao into labels and individuals, then one creates a situation of this and that. Eg. When one calls this a tree and that a whale, now it takes TIME to get from the so called tree to the so called whale. Without name and label everything is here at once, universally. No time. Just now. This is why the masters call it the void. you are very big. Now of course, if one can truly see this reality then one must ask, why do we age if indeed there is no time? The only certainty in life is change, and the options as to how many directions one can change in layman society is the program of age. BUT there are many more options outside of the square box. A persons comfort zone is also that persons solitary confinement. The other options are outside of the square box and ones comfort zone ,( solitary confinement). Anyway , digression has crept in. Regards Wolf.

Edited May 9, 2008 by sifu wolf

[shontonga]

A story of sorts for you Wolf

(a bit long, maybe?!),

a story true of time.

 

written clear but for words to be lost

but those with experience

of beginnings and endings

and of the circles of dust

some meanings may be clearer?

 

 

Was once in a state of playing

with sameness and separation

A job that if one has "able hands" one does

a job that's a double edged blade

 

This one was in a state of three

but still was one watching ~seeing, hearing, feeling

being another

sharing selves

and went to a "point" beyond an other's end

A place/space/time "I" wasn't to go

This self got in the way

with emotions questioning

begging answers that are not

 

The self attracted attention

of another without concept of time

And being the self caused hesitation

a reaction to slow to react

confused by thoughts, emotions, analyzing, questioning

The other not restricted by time moved with speed immeasurable

in an instance "my" guard was up

An instant is a very long period of time, old friend

This one was hit hard

So fast it was thought just a tap

Knowing well it could have been much worse for this child

Not knowing that time would show how hard hit

A strike that continued for months

causing a slow seeping to fill

that was as though a poisoned water

with unexplained chest pains and lungs filling

a drowning while breathing clean air

... and of course leaving Dr.'s confused

and shrugging and prescribing foolishness

 

The concept of time was "my" own

"my" hesitation, reaction so slow

the others speed,

instantaneous strike that was slowly felt for months

Effects that have been felt for years

Still a concept that binds this one

with the other unaware of such chains existence

Unknowing and unconcerned

 

The strike also a double edged sword that is still teaching

 

slowly learning to drop time to reality

but still confused and caught

free falling into and through spider webs

Such sticky stuff!

 

am still learning.

 

when it drops

the surprise on others faces

makes me laugh!

 

 

So,

What think you Wolf?

Paragraphs are a foolish foolishness

but even much so if you don't use punctuation !

Or to just have fun maybe just limit it

Blur the beginnings and endings!

and wait for folks minds to spin!

LOL!

 

I Know

 

I Am

 

An A_s ! LOL ... but i so enjoy it!

 

 

Like the mountains cooling their toes in the sea

with surfers above playing along in the waves!

Also like the idea of your sweet lawnmowers

but wonder ... do they spit ?

Like lamas?

I'm thinkin' all the monks should have some drop spindles!

(for to make wool/yarn!)

But then you may all have to learn to knit?

 

Stay well,

Shon

 

 

Sorry,

This story may not make Any sense at all

for how long it is ???

Not sure?

 

Thank you

Wolf

 

Stay well,

Shonton Ga

[zbob]

As someone who is very interested in the amazing similarities between Taoist thought and modern theoretical physics, I wanted to comment on the subject of the illusory nature of time from the perspective of absolute spacetime:

 

Albert Einstein stated that "since there exists in the four dimensional structure (space-time) no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence." Einstein went on to state that there is not a true division between past and future, but rather a single existence. In other words, the distinction between past, present and future is an illusion.

 

Since all subjective time is relative depending on the observer's speed through space relative to another observer and their relative position in the universe, there is no objective, absolute time or absolute space as Newton proposed. Instead, since there is no objective "now" due to the relative, subjective observation of space-time, the only thing that is real is the whole of space-time. As theoretical physicist David Bohm stated: "Ultimately, all moments are really one. Therefore now is eternity" Or as theoretical physicist Brian Greene says: "Just as we envision all of space as really being out there, as really existing, we should also envision all of time as really being out there, as really existing too."

 

And for a different view of the second law of thermodynamics and the nature of order and timelessness go to:

 

http://www.everythingforever.com/

[sifu wolf]

As someone who is very interested in the amazing similarities between Taoist thought and modern theoretical physics, I wanted to comment on the subject of the illusory nature of time from the perspective of absolute spacetime:

 

Albert Einstein stated that "since there exists in the four dimensional structure (space-time) no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence." Einstein went on to state that there is not a true division between past and future, but rather a single existence. In other words, the distinction between past, present and future is an illusion.

 

Since all subjective time is relative depending on the observer's speed through space relative to another observer and their relative position in the universe, there is no objective, absolute time or absolute space as Newton proposed. Instead, since there is no objective "now" due to the relative, subjective observation of space-time, the only thing that is real is the whole of space-time. As theoretical physicist David Bohm stated: "Ultimately, all moments are really one. Therefore now is eternity" Or as theoretical physicist Brian Greene says: "Just as we envision all of space as really being out there, as really existing, we should also envision all of time as really being out there, as really existing too."

 

And for a different view of the second law of thermodynamics and the nature of order and timelessness go to:

 

http://www.everythingforever.com/

Hello Zbob. Anything either side of now has to be memory or assumption and both can only be thought of Now. A zillion books wont get you out of now. Out there is one tao. Itself, unmoving yet its contents cannot stop. There were once two young monks arguing over the movement of a flag on a pole. One monk argued that the flag was moving. The other argued that the wind was moving. The old master crept up behind and gave them both a good whack and said " you are both wrong. It is your minds that are moving. Wolf

[sifu wolf]

A story of sorts for you Wolf

(a bit long, maybe?!),

a story true of time.

 

written clear but for words to be lost

but those with experience

of beginnings and endings

and of the circles of dust

some meanings may be clearer?

Was once in a state of playing

with sameness and separation

A job that if one has "able hands" one does

a job that's a double edged blade

 

This one was in a state of three

but still was one watching ~seeing, hearing, feeling

being another

sharing selves

and went to a "point" beyond an other's end

A place/space/time "I" wasn't to go

This self got in the way

with emotions questioning

begging answers that are not

 

The self attracted attention

of another without concept of time

And being the self caused hesitation

a reaction to slow to react

confused by thoughts, emotions, analyzing, questioning

The other not restricted by time moved with speed immeasurable

in an instance "my" guard was up

An instant is a very long period of time, old friend

This one was hit hard

So fast it was thought just a tap

Knowing well it could have been much worse for this child

Not knowing that time would show how hard hit

A strike that continued for months

causing a slow seeping to fill

that was as though a poisoned water

with unexplained chest pains and lungs filling

a drowning while breathing clean air

... and of course leaving Dr.'s confused

and shrugging and prescribing foolishness

 

The concept of time was "my" own

"my" hesitation, reaction so slow

the others speed,

instantaneous strike that was slowly felt for months

Effects that have been felt for years

Still a concept that binds this one

with the other unaware of such chains existence

Unknowing and unconcerned

 

The strike also a double edged sword that is still teaching

 

slowly learning to drop time to reality

but still confused and caught

free falling into and through spider webs

Such sticky stuff!

 

am still learning.

 

when it drops

the surprise on others faces

makes me laugh!

So,

What think you Wolf?

Paragraphs are a foolish foolishness

but even much so if you don't use punctuation !

Or to just have fun maybe just limit it

Blur the beginnings and endings!

and wait for folks minds to spin!

LOL!

 

I Know

 

I Am

 

An A_s ! LOL ... but i so enjoy it!

Like the mountains cooling their toes in the sea

with surfers above playing along in the waves!

Also like the idea of your sweet lawnmowers

but wonder ... do they spit ?

Like lamas?

I'm thinkin' all the monks should have some drop spindles!

(for to make wool/yarn!)

But then you may all have to learn to knit?

 

Stay well,

Shon

Sorry,

This story may not make Any sense at all

for how long it is ???

Not sure?

 

Thank you

Wolf

 

Stay well,

Shonton Ga

Hello Shon. Nothing is to long or short, always as a thing should be. In that, is what deserves faith in the tao. Your story is one of the human condition. It makes perfect sense. YES. They spit. But we spit back and laugh with the el pacas, not at them. They may get offended. lol See the life behind you as a tall rigid pole that, which without, you could not sit firmly high and here. Take care Shon Your friend Wolf

[zbob]

Hello Zbob. Anything either side of now has to be memory or assumption and both can only be thought of Now. A zillion books wont get you out of now. Out there is one tao. Itself, unmoving yet its contents cannot stop. There were once two young monks arguing over the movement of a flag on a pole. One monk argued that the flag was moving. The other argued that the wind was moving. The old master crept up behind and gave them both a good whack and said " you are both wrong. It is your minds that are moving. Wolf

Thank you for responding. I am amazed that even "materialistic" science is beginning to discover that the nature and basis of the fabric of reality is timelessness. Unfortunately, however, the materialistic super paradigm of modern science hinders its adherents from the ultimate understanding that the ground of being is consciousness. (as your monk's flag example so perfectly illustrates) But with theoretical physicists such as Amit Goswami at the leading edge of monistic idealistic thought, the super paradigm may eventually fall and be replaced by a scientific view very much in concordance with taoism.

[shontonga]

Hello Shon. Nothing is to long or short, always as a thing should be. In that, is what deserves faith in the tao. Your story is one of the human condition. It makes perfect sense. YES. They spit. But we spit back and laugh with the el pacas, not at them. They may get offended. lol See the life behind you as a tall rigid pole that, which without, you could not sit firmly high and here. Take care Shon Your friend Wolf

 

Be bad to offend lawnmowers such as those! ... Glad they're not spit at! LOL.

 

Thanks Wolf, interesting concept to take into journeying,

not sure of your words but my mind has returned to it through the day.

Puts me in mind of (again? words for it?) "center pole/life tree/spirt spear or sticks"

that are used as an anchor of sorts ?

or as a marker or a path way/door/portal during journeying at times.

 

Have worked with trees and land in such ways but this brings other images to mind?

 

Not sure I catch your meaning for sure but thanks

you gave me some to think on!

 

Stay well,

Shon

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for responding. I am amazed that even "materialistic" science is beginning to discover that the nature and basis of the fabric of reality is timelessness. Unfortunately, however, the materialistic super paradigm of modern science hinders its adherents from the ultimate understanding that the ground of being is consciousness. (as your monk's flag example so perfectly illustrates) But with theoretical physicists such as Amit Goswami at the leading edge of monistic idealistic thought, the super paradigm may eventually fall and be replaced by a scientific view very much in concordance with taoism.

 

 

Hi Zbob!

 

Just a note on the side ?

 

Any questions you have on "Time" can be answered by sitting with a bowl of water!

 

Sit and drop a little stone into it.

 

The rings you see are just a VERY small part !

 

Have fun!

 

Shon

 

 

 

Think it is Rain who has a great avatar right now to show the rings

 

Try it

 

with a Quiet mind

 

and soft eyes

 

calm heart

 

Like to know what you find if anything?

 

Peace!

 

Shon

[sifu wolf]

Thank you for responding. I am amazed that even "materialistic" science is beginning to discover that the nature and basis of the fabric of reality is timelessness. Unfortunately, however, the materialistic super paradigm of modern science hinders its adherents from the ultimate understanding that the ground of being is consciousness. (as your monk's flag example so perfectly illustrates) But with theoretical physicists such as Amit Goswami at the leading edge of monistic idealistic thought, the super paradigm may eventually fall and be replaced by a scientific view very much in concordance with taoism.

Hey Zbob. Please , THANK YOU. A sharp, deep mind free of paragraphs. The nutrition is in the contents and not in the wrapping. The Tao contains matter and therefor physics. It also contains spirit and therefor mysticism. It contains change and therefor alchemy. If something "IS" it is in the tao. Even illusion, therefor belief and religion. If a thing "isnt" that is in the tao also. Unless there is a brick wall out there deep in space containing the cosmos, it dosnt end. One science will not cover all. On a microcosmic parallel, we need dermatologists for part of our being but also brain surgeons, dentists, etc. None of them are wrong in comparison to the other. A hand is functional because its fingers remain apart to function as one. So too, the tao and its sciences. What thinketh thou Zbob? Regards. Wolf

[sifu wolf]

Be bad to offend lawnmowers such as those! ... Glad they're not spit at! LOL.

 

Thanks Wolf, interesting concept to take into journeying,

not sure of your words but my mind has returned to it through the day.

Puts me in mind of (again? words for it?) "center pole/life tree/spirt spear or sticks"

that are used as an anchor of sorts ?

or as a marker or a path way/door/portal during journeying at times.

 

Have worked with trees and land in such ways but this brings other images to mind?

 

Not sure I catch your meaning for sure but thanks

you gave me some to think on!

 

Stay well,

Shon

Hi Zbob!

 

Just a note on the side ?

 

Any questions you have on "Time" can be answered by sitting with a bowl of water!

 

Sit and drop a little stone into it.

 

The rings you see are just a VERY small part !

 

Have fun!

 

Shon

Think it is Rain who has a great avatar right now to show the rings

 

Try it

 

with a Quiet mind

 

and soft eyes

 

calm heart

 

Like to know what you find if anything?

 

Peace!

 

Shon

Hello shon. Sorry for the lack of clarity with the pole thing. It was just a long winded way of saying that everything that has happened in ones life, ( seemingly good or bad), is purely, without exception, what got one here today. If one jot of that life were changed, etc, etc. You know. lol ! Take care. Wolf

[zbob]

Hey Zbob. Please , THANK YOU. A sharp, deep mind free of paragraphs. The nutrition is in the contents and not in the wrapping. The Tao contains matter and therefor physics. It also contains spirit and therefor mysticism. It contains change and therefor alchemy. If something "IS" it is in the tao. Even illusion, therefor belief and religion. If a thing "isnt" that is in the tao also. Unless there is a brick wall out there deep in space containing the cosmos, it dosnt end. One science will not cover all. On a microcosmic parallel, we need dermatologists for part of our being but also brain surgeons, dentists, etc. None of them are wrong in comparison to the other. A hand is functional because its fingers remain apart to function as one. So too, the tao and its sciences. What thinketh thou Zbob? Regards. Wolf

Hello Sifu Wolf. Thank you very much for your response to my post. I also believe that the sciences function apart subjectively to function as parts of the One objectively. For there to be a part there must be a whole. Is it also true that for there to be god there must also be no god? And vice versa.

Clearly, modern theoretical physicists have reached the conclusion that mystics have known for millenia: for there to be time (subjective, relative), there also must be timelessness (objective, absolute). (they are contained within each other, although each is a separate part of the whole)

Peace in every moment, zbob

Edited June 28, 2008 by zbob

[zbob]

Be bad to offend lawnmowers such as those! ... Glad they're not spit at! LOL.

 

Thanks Wolf, interesting concept to take into journeying,

not sure of your words but my mind has returned to it through the day.

Puts me in mind of (again? words for it?) "center pole/life tree/spirt spear or sticks"

that are used as an anchor of sorts ?

or as a marker or a path way/door/portal during journeying at times.

 

Have worked with trees and land in such ways but this brings other images to mind?

 

Not sure I catch your meaning for sure but thanks

you gave me some to think on!

 

Stay well,

Shon

Hi Zbob!

 

Just a note on the side ?

 

Any questions you have on "Time" can be answered by sitting with a bowl of water!

 

Sit and drop a little stone into it.

 

The rings you see are just a VERY small part !

 

Have fun!

 

Shon

Think it is Rain who has a great avatar right now to show the rings

 

Try it

 

with a Quiet mind

 

and soft eyes

 

calm heart

 

Like to know what you find if anything?

 

Peace!

 

Shon

Thank you Shon for your thoughtful response. I also do a mindful "meditation" whereby I allow my perceptions of the leaves of trees blown by the wind to flow through my consciousness without actively perceiving any "time" as my mind is altered by the changes of form. Peace, joy and happiness are the products of this "meditation".

Peace to you, zbob

[shontonga]

Thank you Shon for your thoughtful response. I also do a mindful "meditation" whereby I allow my perceptions of the leaves of trees blown by the wind to flow through my consciousness without actively perceiving any "time" as my mind is altered by the changes of form. Peace, joy and happiness are the products of this "meditation".

Peace to you, zbob

 

OhI Like that!

 

Thank you Zbob

 

Love the leaves

and the trees!

they were whispering of rain

when i was just outside!

Sounding soft and happy

and almost expectant.

 

 

that sounds like a great meditation

 

Thanks!

[shontonga]

Hello shon. Sorry for the lack of clarity with the pole thing. It was just a long winded way of saying that everything that has happened in ones life, ( seemingly good or bad), is purely, without exception, what got one here today. If one jot of that life were changed, etc, etc. You know. lol ! Take care. Wolf

 

Clarity is overrated!

Confusion can be at times more creative

reminded this kid of some stuff

once learned but long time forgotten!

now inspired to try some old techniques, cool enough!

 

Thanks!

 

If one jot were changed ...

 

: )

 

Tao.

 

Peace!

Edited June 28, 2008 by shontonga

[sifu wolf]

Hello Sifu Wolf. Thank you very much for your response to my post. I also believe that the sciences function apart subjectively to function as parts of the One objectively. For there to be a part there must be a whole. Is it also true that for there to be god there must also be no god? And vice versa.

Clearly, modern theoretical physicists have reached the conclusion that mystics have known for millenia: for there to be time (subjective, relative), there also must be timelessness (objective, absolute). (they are contained within each other, although each is a separate part of the whole)

Peace in every moment, zbob

Hey Zbob. That was a nice absolute yin yang in a nutshell. Do you like coffee? Regards wolf

[JackSquat]

[shontonga]

LOL, LOVE IT!

inexorable? (inexorable='s impossible to stop or prevent!)

Your avatar is whip~tastic!

fantastically frozen in time !

 

Imagined time,HaHah! Yup.

Grew up calling it "indian time"(no offense to any!) for the work done in it.

could also be called artists time, meditators time,

it's like being in the "zone" and the way

time can slow or speed as needed.

Time is a concept we imagined to try to measure

but as of yet our ways of measuring still don't work so reliably, I'm thinking!

 

Nice to meet you Jacksquat!

 

Stay well!

Shon

[adam mizner]

even the present moment cannot be found, but its something to work with...

 

metta

adam

 

A brief note on how quickly such illusions develop. If one were to, hypothetically have the audacity, to fragment the tao into labels and individuals, then one creates a situation of this and that. Eg. When one calls this a tree and that a whale, now it takes TIME to get from the so called tree to the so called whale. Without name and label everything is here at once, universally. No time. Just now. This is why the masters call it the void. you are very big. Now of course, if one can truly see this reality then one must ask, why do we age if indeed there is no time? The only certainty in life is change, and the options as to how many directions one can change in layman society is the program of age. BUT there are many more options outside of the square box. A persons comfort zone is also that persons solitary confinement. The other options are outside of the square box and ones comfort zone ,( solitary confinement). Anyway , digression has crept in. Regards Wolf.

[Z3N]

even the present moment cannot be found, but its something to work with...

 

metta

adam

 

One will try its best to share the experience

 

The present moment can be found in time and timelessness. In the transition of the awareness detaching from the functions of the organism therefore memory stops and timelessness begins the present moment can still be found. When reattaching of the awareness begins the organisms memory cells reactivate creating the illusion of what feels like a small amount of time of two minutes to the skin bag is actually three hours out of the skin bags physical time, even then the present moment of timelessness has no time and the awareness can still be present. In the void, all is void.

 

In time and in timelessness awareness is still awareness, guest or host there still is awareness.

 

Life or death.