Vegetarianism

[Barnaby]

In reflecting on the 8 precepts, it feels clearer and clearer that vegetarianism is the natural consequence for me of the first precept against killing.

 

I’d be curious to know how fellow bums feel about this and apply it to their lives…

 

Thanks in advance!

[Indiken]

16 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

In reflecting on the 8 precepts, it feels clearer and clearer that vegetarianism is the natural consequence for me of the first precept against killing.

 

I’d be curious to know how fellow bums feel about this and apply it to their lives…

 

Thanks in advance!

 

It may get kinda creepy if we will find that plants are also living beings. 

[refugeindharma]

With the current agricultural industry this really comes into question because the idea is that if you eat meat bought from a supermarket, you are indirectly related to or 'supporting' the death of that animal because it has been bred for that purpose. Indirect because you can say they raise and then kill it to be eaten, but moreso that it is killed to be sold to whoever buys it and then distributes it to supermarkets, which is then bought by the end consumer..

 

The Buddha proposed that monks only eat meat if it is considered pure meat, that is meat that is not seen, heard, or believed to be killed directly for them to be eaten as an offering. In this way they are not creating negative karma

 

Devadatta, the Buddha's nemesis and cousin tried to argue that monks should be vegetarian but the Buddha didn't agree on the basis that this may not allow certain people to do dana (give alms), and also as monks should be non-preferential or show bias in what they eat/have been given.

 

The above is the Pali Canon/Theravada view of things as I understand it. Bhante Sujato (Theravadan monk) has written an essay with his thoughts on pro-vegetarianism: https://sujato.wordpress.com/2012/01/28/why-buddhists-should-be-vegetarian-with-extra-cute/

 

Mahayana on the other hand is all about vegetarianism. I haven't dug deep into the sutras and why they espouse vegetarian though tbh, the only thing I know of first hand is the Shurangama Sutra stating that if you want to achieve or attain genuine Shurangama Samadhi, then there is no way you can do that without being vegetarian or at least not eating meat. This seems to align with Daoist teachings where eating meat will make the energy too dense, thus making it more difficult to attain higher states of meditation etc. 

 

I have more thoughts around this but I'll leave it here for now

Edited February 5, 2023 by refugeindharma

[C T]

Some years ago I'd attended a talk given by a teacher with a H.E. title, and this subject was broached. Basically he said all actions have residual consequences, including adopting a vegan/vegetarian lifestyle. Less or more karma (accrued), he added, has more to do with intent rather than the choices acted upon. That's about the gist of his reply. 

 

I suppose, based on my takeaway from his words, that one who fish sustainably to feed his family should accrue less karma than say one who takes delight in trophy or sport fishing where catches are kept as specimen proofs, and this will probably accrue less karma than say one who catches a dozen fish, takes home 2 and waywardly leaves 10 to die, in which case there arise a valid question... what about the secondary karma of letting the strewn carcasses feed the insects and birds? Is this, in some sense, also a form of dana? 

 

Imo, ultimately, intention rather than action determines one's karmic equity.

 

Lastly, the cultivation of vegetables also takes the lives of countless living beings. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by C T
Typo

[liminal_luke]

Food can be such a contentious subject!  There's lots of disagreement even among kind, thoughtful, and intelligent eaters.  Some choose vegetarianism or veganism, others paleo or even the carnivore diet.  I think the trick to minimizing food karma is to avoid becoming that most annoying of dinner table companions, the dietary moral scold.  

[Taomeow]

[Barnaby]

4 hours ago, refugeindharma said:

I have more thoughts around this but I'll leave it here for now

I’d be interested to hear more when you’re ready 😊

[Barnaby]

2 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

I think the trick to minimizing food karma is to avoid becoming that most annoying of dinner table companions, the dietary moral scold.  

Sure, that’s a given.

 

But I wasn’t thinking about moralizing as much as being at peace with one’s own conscience. And specifically in the context of the 1st Precept and it’s injunction on killing. And, as Refuge pointed out in his/her (?) post, one’s involuntary participation in the killing process as a meat consumer…

 

Thanks for the replies, very thought provoking 👍

 

EDIT: I said involuntary, but on 2nd thoughts don’t think that’s right, because it is a voluntary choice to consume meat

Edited February 5, 2023 by Barnaby

[Barnaby]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

Someone tried to get me to eat some spiced ones with drinks last summer, but I couldn’t handle it at all 🤢

[liminal_luke]

...

Edited February 5, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Barnaby said:

Someone tried to get me to eat some spiced ones with drinks last summer, but I couldn’t handle it at all 🤢

 

 

 

Our beloved overlords aren't kidding.  https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/07/why-we-need-to-give-insects-the-role-they-deserve-in-our-food-systems/  

 

 

[liminal_luke]

I've eaten crickets before in Oaxaca.  Prepared with sufficient lime and chile, they're a fun bar snack.  I suspect that this preparation is a far cry from the processed insect "foods" Taomeow alludes to above.  If I'm gonna eat insects, I wanna see the wriggly little legs.

[Invisible Acropolis]

7 hours ago, Barnaby said:

In reflecting on the 8 precepts, it feels clearer and clearer that vegetarianism is the natural consequence for me of the first precept against killing.

 

I’d be curious to know how fellow bums feel about this and apply it to their lives…

 

Vamachara is particularly associated with the panchamakara or "Five Ms", also known as the panchatattva. In literal terms they are: madya ('wine'), mamsa ('meat'), matsya ('fish'), mudra ('grain'), and maithuna ('sexual intercourse'). Mudra usually means ritual gestures, but as part of the five Ms it is parched grain.

 

Taboo-breaking elements are only practiced literally by "left-hand path" tantrics (vāmācārins), whereas "right-hand path" tantrics (dakṣiṇācārins) oppose these.

 

Quote

One of the earliest references to a Kāpālika is found in Hāla's Prakrit poem, the Gāthāsaptaśati (third to fifth century A.D.) in a verse in which the poet describes a young female Kāpālikā who besmears herself with ashes from the funeral pyre of her lover. Varāhamihira (c500-575) refer more than once to the Kāpālikas thus clearly establishing their existence in the sixth century. Indeed, from this time onwards references to Kāpālika ascetics become fairly commonplace in Sanskrit ...

 

The word is derived from the Sanskrit term kapāla, meaning "skull", and kāpālika means the "skull-men".

 

[Barnaby]

56 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

Prepared with sufficient lime and chile, they're a fun bar snack

They were a bridge too far for me, man… 

[Taomeow]

58 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

I've eaten crickets before in Oaxaca.  Prepared with sufficient lime and chile, they're a fun bar snack.  I suspect that this preparation is a far cry from the processed insect "foods" Taomeow alludes to above.  If I'm gonna eat insects, I wanna see the wriggly little legs.

 

Not sure wriggly little legs would inspire you.  I've seen scorpion kabobs being sold in Huguosi Hutong Snack Street in Beijing, and yes, the way to eat them is while the legs are still wriggling -- I guess it guarantees freshness.  Now I must admit I've been an adventurous eater for most of my adulthood, and anywhere I ever traveled, I tried eating anything and everything the locals eat, dried jellyfish and sea urchins and cow brains and swallow's nest and plants most people would see as goat feed and moonshine made of, in all likelihood, spare kitchen stools.  But those scorpions...  thanks but no thanks.                   

[liminal_luke]

I'm an adventurous eater too but live scorpions?  Sounds like a great place to draw the line.

 

Traveling around a bit, I've learned that people aren't all the same, particularly when it comes to food habits. I try to be flexible but one thing is for sure: no matter how long I live south of the border, I'll never eat like a Mexican.  The last thing I want to feel when reaching into a tub of popcorn in a dark movie theatre is sticky Valentina salsa.  

Edited February 5, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Shadow_self]

8 hours ago, Indiken said:

 

It may get kinda creepy if we will find that plants are also living beings. 

 

Rather curious western esoteric belief

 

Quote

Man is an inverted plant, 

 

 

The mandrake drawings we see everywhere arent without their background  

 

 

After all, Paracelus's ens vegetalis, is just another name for the etheric body  

 

Just thought id drop that in for fun  

[Giles]

9 hours ago, Barnaby said:

In reflecting on the 8 precepts, it feels clearer and clearer that vegetarianism is the natural consequence for me of the first precept against killing.

 

I’d be curious to know how fellow bums feel about this and apply it to their lives…

 

Thanks in advance!

 

 

FWIW (IMO/IME) you're on the right track Barnaby.

[Camellia]

14 hours ago, C T said:

 

Imo, ultimately, intention rather than action determines one's karmic equity.

 

Lastly, the cultivation of vegetables also takes the lives of countless living beings. 

Agree with both of these points. 

 

17 hours ago, Barnaby said:

In reflecting on the 8 precepts, it feels clearer and clearer that vegetarianism is the natural consequence for me of the first precept against killing.

 

I’d be curious to know how fellow bums feel about this and apply it to their lives…

 

Thanks in advance!

As part of my ahimsa practice I was a vegan for over a decade. Ultimately, it didn't work for me. So I decided I wanted to be closer to my food and got a small farm. Interestingly, growing food has become a part of my spiritual practice. It's been a cool evolution.

 

I think mindfulness is one of the best practices we can do when it comes to our food. Being mindful of where our food comes from, how it gets to us, how what we eat affects our body, etc. Just mindfulness, not perfection. We do the best we can with the tools that have been provided to us.

 

That being said, I do think vegetarianism is a good practice and I still enjoy plenty of vegetarian meals each week. If taking that next step is something that aligns with you, then that's all that matters.

 

[Barnaby]

3 hours ago, Camellia said:

Being mindful of where our food comes from, how it gets to us, how what we eat affects our body, etc

I couldn’t agree more.

 

3 hours ago, Camellia said:

20 hours ago, Barnaby said:

 

As part of my ahimsa practice I was a vegan for over a decade.

I’m curious about the nutritional aspects of this. How did you manage for protein and B12?

 

[Barnaby]

20 hours ago, refugeindharma said:

Bhante Sujato (Theravadan monk) has written an essay with his thoughts on pro-vegetarianism: 

Really interesting piece, thanks for the link.

 

[Barnaby]

18 hours ago, C T said:

 

Imo, ultimately, intention rather than action determines one's karmic equity.

Having now read the essay posted by Refuge, I’d respond that I’m not sure this is simply about karma.

 

Karma clearly is related to intention.

 

But this issue seems to have as much to do with ethics and unmeasurable compassion. Slightly different, no?

 

[C T]

51 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

Having now read the essay posted by Refuge, I’d respond that I’m not sure this is simply about karma.

 

Karma clearly is related to intention.

 

But this issue seems to have as much to do with ethics and unmeasurable compassion. Slightly different, no?

 

 

Bearing in mind countless insects' lives are lost in the process of farming non-meat produce, how certain are we that sustaining such a choice, that is, abstinence from killing and also adopting a seemingly gentler vegetarian path, is truly ethical, in a complete sense, and not a subtle game of self deception? 

[Barnaby]

2 hours ago, C T said:

Bearing in mind countless insects' lives are lost in the process of farming non-meat produce

 

I'm curious: are you referring to pesticides, or the physical process of cultivating the land (ploughing etc)?

 

[Vajra Fist]

Unrelated, but the fifth precept is also contentious. For instance, in Japanese Buddhism its interpreted as a rule against intoxication, rather than against substances that intoxify. For instance, a small amount of wine is okay, as long as you don't get drunk. 

 

Also, the precepts are not so much rules and regulations. But warnings against things that could introduce additional impediments to your practice.