Vegetarianism

[Shadow_self]

3 hours ago, C T said:

 

Bearing in mind countless insects' lives are lost in the process of farming non-meat produce, how certain are we that sustaining such a choice, that is, abstinence from killing and also adopting a seemingly gentler vegetarian path, is truly ethical, in a complete sense, and not a subtle game of self deception? 

 

Vegans, for whatever reason seem to gloss over this point. 

[C T]

29 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

I'm curious: are you referring to pesticides, or the physical process of cultivating the land (ploughing etc)?

 

 

The whole gamut of fruit & veg farming, from domestic to commercial enterprises. 

 

Then there is this whole irritating business of having to pay premium prices for 'organic' veg & fruit produce... questionable ethics perhaps.... but this isn't topic-related, so we don't need to go there. 

 

Back on topic. 

In India and elsewhere, most if not all Brahmins are strict vegans/vegetarians. As a group of people, I'd say they are not different from any other community in terms of values, ethics, humanity, compassion, philosophy and so on, although I'm sure some Brahmins will argue to the contrary. 

[Barnaby]

7 minutes ago, C T said:

Back on topic. 

In India and elsewhere, most if not all Brahmins are strict vegans/vegetarians. As a group of people, I'd say they are not different from any other community in terms of values, ethics, humanity, compassion, philosophy and so on

 

Interesting.

 

Although I understand that Hindu vegetarianism did emerge out of ahimsa, Brahmin vegetarianism seems to have been concerned with purity as much as anything else. And therefore not so clearly linked to ethical/compassion considerations...

 

[Barnaby]

12 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Vegans, for whatever reason seem to gloss over this point. 

 

It's an interesting point.

 

But again, I'm curious to know by what means you're saying these insect lives are being lost. Chemical, or physical, or both?

 

Because off the top of my head, I'd assume an orders-of-magnitude difference between pesticides and tilling the land...?

 

[Nahfets]

32 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Vegans, for whatever reason seem to gloss over this point. 

 

Mental gymnastics this argument. 

Do you really think that a biodiverse grown field of organic grains creates less suffering from the few insects that die while harvesting?

We're not talking big agro's way of growing shit now, we're talking proper soil managment and actual organic fields with flowers grown on the side of each field to help with biodiversity excatly for the insects. These things are being done in many places, often by vegans who have been calling for compassion and sustainability for decades even before it got so hyped. 

People like to avoid the shame of contributing to factory farming, this is nothing new, but do go ahead and watch the trailer for Dominion here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9NiOwibz14  the full movie is also free on YT.

Using arguments such as farming kills insects and thus factory farming is even stevens is just delusional when you know what is actually going on. You can't apply perfectionism to all vegans as an excuse for dismissing their objective. (You're still killing a bunch of bugs thus veganism is debunked) it's sort of not the argument we should expect from grownups really. 

 

[doc benway]

On 2/5/2023 at 5:45 AM, Barnaby said:

In reflecting on the 8 precepts, it feels clearer and clearer that vegetarianism is the natural consequence for me of the first precept against killing.

 

I’d be curious to know how fellow bums feel about this and apply it to their lives…

 

Thanks in advance!

 

About 10 years ago my spouse and I made the decision to stop eating animals and birds.

Our decision was based primarily on the horrific treatment of these creatures by our food industries.

We recognize and acknowledge the fact that the seafood industry is also quite problematic and that our decision does not solve many problems. Some might call us hypocrites and of course industrial agriculture, even personal agriculture is not without a price.

The important piece is that we both felt this to be an important change to make in our lives at the time and continue to honor it.

I will occasionally eat animals or birds, a few times per year perhaps, and make an effort to be sure the meat is ethically sourced.

 

 

[Camellia]

5 hours ago, Barnaby said:

I’m curious about the nutritional aspects of this. How did you manage for protein and B12?

 

For protein I had tofu, tempeh, seitan, and combinations such as beans and rice, or lentils etc. I supplemented b12 just through vitamins. I also got bloodwork done every year to make sure I was good with everything, and to be aware of any changes I needed to make nutritionally.

[Camellia]

15 minutes ago, steve said:

 

About 10 years ago my spouse and I made the decision to stop eating animals and birds.

Our decision was based primarily on the horrific treatment of these creatures by our food industries.

We recognize and acknowledge the fact that the seafood industry is also quite problematic and that our decision does not solve many problems. Some might call us hypocrites and of course industrial agriculture, even personal agriculture is not without a price.

The important piece is that we both felt this to be an important change to make in our lives at the time and continue to honor it.

I will occasionally eat animals or birds, a few times per year perhaps, and make an effort to be sure the meat is ethically sourced.

 

 

A good example of what I meant earlier when I mentioned mindfulness vs perfection. 

[Shadow_self]

18 minutes ago, Nahfets said:

 

Mental gymnastics this argument. 

Do you really think that a biodiverse grown field of organic grains creates less suffering from the few insects that die while harvesting?

We're not talking big agro's way of growing shit now, we're talking proper soil managment and actual organic fields with flowers grown on the side of each field to help with biodiversity excatly for the insects. These things are being done in many places, often by vegans who have been calling for compassion and sustainability for decades even before it got so hyped. 

People like to avoid the shame of contributing to factory farming, this is nothing new, but do go ahead and watch the trailer for Dominion here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9NiOwibz14  the full movie is also free on YT.

Using arguments such as farming kills insects and thus factory farming is even stevens is just delusional when you know what is actually going on. You can't apply perfectionism to all vegans as an excuse for dismissing their objective. (You're still killing a bunch of bugs thus veganism is debunked) it's sort of not the argument we should expect from grownups really. 

 

 

Actually what I am saying is a life is a life

 

Whether a cow dies so you can eat meat, or an insect dies so you can eat a bowl of oatmeal, something still dies so you can live

 

Whether something is raised to be murdered, or you just outright murder it, murder is still murder. 

 

The endpoint is the same,

 

Focusing on the in-between often ends up being little more than a diversionary tactic to support ones own biases if one is going to ignore that glaring fact.

 

Acknowledgment of this fact means that if we understand the above endpoint and recognize it, then we can talk about the in-between and working there to change the endpoint

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, Barnaby said:

 

It's an interesting point.

 

But again, I'm curious to know by what means you're saying these insect lives are being lost. Chemical, or physical, or both?

 

Because off the top of my head, I'd assume an orders-of-magnitude difference between pesticides and tilling the land...?

 

 

I meant both

 

They dont just kill insects either. Plenty of other animals die as a result of both

[C T]

1 hour ago, Barnaby said:

 

It's an interesting point.

 

But again, I'm curious to know by what means you're saying these insect lives are being lost. Chemical, or physical, or both?

 

Because off the top of my head, I'd assume an orders-of-magnitude difference between pesticides and tilling the land...?

 

 

In some Buddhist monastic communities where farming is practiced, the soil is meticulously tilled using small hand utensils just so they will avoid killing any earthworms and other soil-bound critters. But the thing is, they still purchase flour, rice, some seeds and maybe buckwheat from commercial suppliers who in turn source their products from big agri. 

 

I suppose the closest one can hope to practice the pure precept of not killing is to wholly rely on foraging wild non-meat foods for sustenance. Dont think many vegans will find this amenable or realistic. 

[Shadow_self]

8 minutes ago, C T said:

Dont think many vegans will find this amenable or realistic. 

 

About as realistic as the "primal" or "paleo" community chasing after their prey topless, having not eaten for three days with a poorly fashioned spear  

[C T]

25 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

 

Actually what I am saying is a life is a life

 

Whether a cow dies so you can eat meat, or an insect dies so you can eat a bowl of oatmeal, something still dies so you can live

 

Whether something is raised to be murdered, or you just outright murder it, murder is still murder. 

 

The endpoint is the same,

 

Focusing on the in-between often ends up being little more than a diversionary tactic to support ones own biases if one is going to ignore that glaring fact.

 

Acknowledgment of this fact means that if we understand the above endpoint and recognize it, then we can talk about the in-between and working there to change the endpoint

 

This

[Barnaby]

22 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Whether a cow dies so you can eat meat, or an insect dies so you can eat a bowl of oatmeal, something still dies so you can live

But does an insect necessarily have to die so I can eat my bowl of (organic, sorry CT 😉) oatmeal?

 

Maybe so, as per CT’s post above…

 

But I’d certainly never thought of it like that, hence the utility of this discussion 👍

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, steve said:

 ethically sourced.

 

 

Yes!  Some animals are raised in vastly better conditions than others.  Apart from the vegetarian route, those who want to practice compassion might choose to eat animals that lived in good conditions -- outside in the sunshine, eating species appropriate feed, etc. 

[Camellia]

32 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

But does an insect necessarily have to die so I can eat my bowl of (organic, sorry CT 😉) oatmeal?

 

Maybe so, as per CT’s post above…

 

But I’d certainly never thought of it like that, hence the utility of this discussion 👍

A personal experience of mine: a few years ago, I wanted a sweet potato for dinner, so I went out to the garden to dig one up. The first place my shovel landed was a well-hidden mouse nest. So, I got one sweet potato in exchange for the lives of six baby mice. Just illustrating how easy it is to inadvertently kill something when it comes to your food..

 

I imagine how much this kind of thing is magnified on a larger scale.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Camellia

[Taomeow]

It's not just insects that die from monoculture farming -- or rather die out, by thousands of species, not just individual bugs (the only insect folks seem to sort of theoretically care about is the bee because, well, bees are directly exploitable, they are the ones "serving" us and in more ways than most people understand -- ecobiologists assert that if bees disappeared, humans would follow suit in a few years, the food chain disruption bereft of bee pollination would be this catastrophic).  It's the whole ecosystems that die, with all their wild plants and fungi and animals dependent on biodiversity that sustains the balance --  birds, frogs, toads, lizards, snakes -- and fish and wild mammals great and small, displaced and poisoned and starved and "eradicated" out of existence.  Most importantly, the soil itself, with billions of soil-based organisms, dies, which is the root of catastrophic environmental developments (including climate deterioration).  Modern agricultural practices are diabolical regardless of whether the end result is a sourdough loaf or a lettuce or a steak.  The real cost of each lettuce leaf is millions of lives.   

 

Please get over the vegetarian myth of it being ethically superior.  And if you want to truly live an ethical life, try being reborn into a time before sedentary agriculture.    

 

Seriously though.  A must read IMO -- for anyone contemplating (or misconstruing) the issue.  The author, incidentally, was a vegetarian for 20 years.  And then researched in depth.  

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Taomeow

[awaken]

On 2023/2/5 at 7:04 PM, Indiken said:

 

It may get kinda creepy if we will find that plants are also living beings. 

 

The aura of plants is very close to that of animals.
Plants also have meridians, which are very close to animals.
A person who open the heart Chiao can feel that the qi emitted by a big tree is no less than that emitted by a qigong master.

 

植物的氣場和動物非常接近。
植物也有經脈，也和動物非常接近。
開了心竅的人可以感受到一顆大樹所散發出來的氣不會亞於氣功大師所散發出來的氣。

 

I once felt the aura from two thousand-year-old camphor trees in China. They are very powerful, far stronger than human beings.

 

我曾經在中國感受過兩顆千年樟樹所散發出的氣，非常強悍，遠遠強於人類太多了。

 

 

 

[Barnaby]

12 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

And if you want to truly live an ethical life, try being reborn into a time before sedentary agriculture.

 

Gotta work with what we have 

[Barnaby]

Just to gently bring this back on track...

 

This was posted in the Buddhist section, and concerned personal interpretation of the first precept.

 

Not trying to be a hard-arse, just saying... 

[Taomeow]

5 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

Gotta work with what we have 

 

Definitely.  But, ideally, without basing personal choices on lies, brainwashing, propaganda, misconceptions, ulterior motives and the like.  I don't just mean dietary choices.  

[Nahfets]

And I respectfully disagree.  This is about the lessor of two evils and a slow progression towards sustainability. Not about waving a magic wand and pretending to be perfectly ethically superior. Or on the contrary going for arguments against the reasonable standpoint that we should create as little suffering as possible. 

Acknowledging the suffering from farm animals and big agricultural devastation here many feel guilt and shame and the thought of being the one to break a family cycle of depending on meat, is for many too much. Thus this argument that planting a field kills more which is the same as saying just give up there's no ethical way of doing it, appeals as a shelter for the guilt of not being in compassion and fighting for the rights of other sentient beings. 

There's tons of projects trying to spread bio-dynamic and organic way of planting in coorperation with nature alongside the insects etc. This is being made by the same people who tried to reason with the establishment in the 60's-80's about environmental issues. Again people are diverting blame and going for the lower hanging fruit of critique the perfection instead of actually being productive about it and trying to come up with solutions and helping out the billions of beings caught in slavery and daily hell. 

This is not coming from a position of moral highground this is just pointing out that this is not a cycle that is helping out humanity in any ways it only sees to further our own destruction. 

 

Edit: Also the farmland used intensively to produce fodder to the farmed animals is way out of proportion compared to the land that would be used to produce the same amount of plantbased food. Ergo this approach kills substantially more animals and also creates way more suffering for the enclosed animals too. 

Stuff like vitamin b6 and b12 can be easily produced from yeast and aminoacids is super easy and cheap to produce largescale also. 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Nahfets

[liminal_luke]

44 minutes ago, Nahfets said:

 

Acknowledging the suffering from farm animals and big agricultural devastation here many feel guilt and shame and the thought of being the one to break a family cycle of depending on meat, is for many too much. 

 

When I first saw this thread I resolved to stay cool.  I resolved to remember the wonderful people in my life who have chosen vegetarianism because of their tender feelings towards animals.  Not wanting to kill -- that's got to be a good thing right?  I resolved to remind myself that many people who go from a processed foods diet to a vegetable-centric vegetarian diet or even a vegan diet (shudder) improve their health. 

 

Miraculously, I've yet to directly insult anyone or post a self-indulgent meme.  Bless my little carnivorous heart, I'm still hangin' in. 

[Shadow_self]

2 hours ago, Nahfets said:

This is about the lessor of two evils and a slow progression towards sustainability.

 

Well its really about acknowledging the truth

 

Whether you are a vegan or an carnivore, things die so you can live

 

If one doesn't like it,  I guess they could go foraging and see how long they last on that.

 

Interesting experiment. Have you ever tried it? 

 

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Not about waving a magic wand and pretending to be perfectly ethically superior.

 

Magic wands dont exist sadly (what fun they would be though right  ) , and I've yet to see a trend in the carnivorous or omnivorous community where a position self proclaimed ethical superiority was taken

 

Then again, there isnt as much propaganda surrounding it, so, that might be a factor 

 

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Or on the contrary going for arguments against the reasonable standpoint that we should create as little suffering as possible. 

 

Suffering is inherent. Its more important to ask why that it is to say it shouldn't be. The latter is common sense, but tells us nothing about how to reduce it.

 

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Acknowledging the suffering from farm animals and big agricultural devastation here many feel guilt and shame and the thought of being the one to break a family cycle of depending on meat, is for many too much.

 

Acknowledging the suffering and feeling guilt and shame are not related.

 

I acknowledge the suffering and I feel no guilt or shame. I'm very aware of it.

 

Do you acknowledge the suffering and feel guilt and shame for all the bugs that were crushed for your food? 

 

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Thus this argument that planting a field kills more which is the same as saying just give up there's no ethical way of doing it, appeals as a shelter for the guilt of not being in compassion and fighting for the rights of other sentient beings. 

 

No it addresses the elephant in the room that  a life is a life and to overlook that fact is to live in denial to support ones perception of their own moral standing

 

The bug that gets squished while digging up you vegetable has the same worth as a life that gets ended when a cow gets slaughtered.

 

Either way a life is lost so you can eat. There is no way to get away from this fact.

 

By the way, plants are sentient too

 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animal-emotions/202209/the-inner-lives-plants-cognition-sentience-and-ethics

 

I wonder if the militant vegans knew this, would they recoil at their salad in disgust, now viewing it as some kind of dismembered collection of plant carcasses?  

 

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There's tons of projects trying to spread bio-dynamic and organic way of planting in coorperation with nature alongside the insects etc. This is being made by the same people who tried to reason with the establishment in the 60's-80's about environmental issues.

 

Yep my uncle runs a biodynamic  organic garden, no animals at all are killed.

 

I've seen it, I've participated, eaten the food from there, its great. He's not a vegan either, he's just mindful

 

Heres' the problem, its not scalable to to global population with the current distribution of resources and wealth

 

Now its not an ethical problem, its something else (business, economics and politics) 

 

So before you even begin to talk about ethics, you'll need to figure that one out

 

And about this point, is where all the idealistic thinking starts to fall apart, because you soon realize while it is great in theory, it will never work in practice as long as the world is the way it is

 

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Again people are diverting blame and going for the lower hanging fruit of critique the perfection instead of actually being productive about it and trying to come up with solutions and helping out the billions of beings caught in slavery and daily hell.

 

I think people are just stating the obvious to be honest

 

Here's an honest suggestion . We can all keep it in our pants as a species.

 

Less procreation = less demand, and with less demand industries start to wither.

 

If the industry is the issue, and the industry survives by demand, then decreases the demand.

 

Simple right? 

 

Quote

 

This is not coming from a position of moral highground this is just pointing out that this is not a cycle that is helping out humanity in any ways it only sees to further our own destruction. 

 

Before you talk about helping out, you need to remove the barriers first though

 

Ive yet to see any reasonable suggestions from anyone taking this position here

Edited February 6, 2023 by Shadow_self

[Shadow_self]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

Miraculously, I've yet to directly insult anyone or post a self-indulgent meme.  Bless my little carnivorous heart, I'm still hangin' in. 

 

 

 

@liminal_luke sorry couldn't help myself  (I actually drink soya milk because dairy hates me  but this is still funny  )