Vegetarianism

[Shadow_self]

2 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

There's a lot that could be said but Barnaby has pronounced this thread dead so I guess I'll let it lie.

 

There's a lot more that could be said if I wasn't quadruple checking my posts so as not to tread on toes (too much anyway)  

 

[Mandrake]

9 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Would agree with this

 

We use mixtures of meat eating and vegetarian diet (well for me its vegan as dairy is out) according to whether the goals of the period of practice are.

 

It usually works quite well  

 

Yes. Some specific practices pretty much require a diet high in animal fat and meat.

In the end, you don't eat yourself into heaven. Eating grass and drinking water for a million years won't make you a Deva.

 

 

M

[liminal_luke]

Oops, I actually do have one more thing I'd like to say.

 

My ancestors were hunter-gatherers but it's been decades since I've hunted or gathered.  Like many modern people, I live life in the abstract.  I forage for boxed foods at Wal-mart, buy electronic books on Amazon rather than real books from gloriously independent booksellers, make virtual friends who have voices I will never hear and faces I will never see.

 

A short story.  Years ago a friend and I shared a hotel room.  Upon first entering the room, my friend turned on the TV loudly and then went to the bathroom.  I didn't get it -- why turn on the TV when he wasn't going to watch?  Turns out he hoped the sound would drown out any sounds he might make defecating.  As someone with a great deal of experience going to the bathroom myself, I'm familiar with the range of sounds occasioned by the act.  How odd that we are embarrassed by our animal natures.  

 

One little mentioned reason to eat meat is that it puts us in touch with the part of us Jung called the shadow.  Human beings kill.  Many of us, including me, are uncomfortable with this fact but it's inescapably true.  If there's an ethical imperative in all this diet business, I think it's not to turn away the facts of life in a misguided attempt to be "pure."  There is no purity.  

 

Which is not to say that violence should be glorified, quite the contrary.  If someone chooses not to eat meat out of compassion for animals, well, I think that's a valid choice.  Still, as many have pointed out, there is no sustenence without killing.  We eat, we go to the bathroom, we argue on the internet.  We are physical beings living imperfect lives in an imperfect world.  Our survival as a species depends on our willingness to acknowledge this truth.

Edited February 7, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Barnaby]

15 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

There is no purity.  

 

It obviously escaped your notice that this thread was posted in the Buddhist section... 

 

Purity (Pali: Vissudhi) is an important concept within much of Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism, although the implications of the resultant moral purification may be viewed differently in the varying traditions. The aim is to purify the personality of the Buddhist practitioner so that all moral and character defilements and defects (kleśas such as anger, ignorance and lust) are wiped away and nirvana can be obtained.

 

[liminal_luke]

38 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

It obviously escaped your notice that this thread was posted in the Buddhist section... 

 

 

 

Actually, I did notice that this thread was posted in the Buddhist section.  I meant no disrespect and simply wanted to make a point that was important to me.  It's common for threads in all the common areas of the board to go "off topic."  Sometimes such diversions are delightful, sometimes annoying, depending on one's point of view.  If you wish to ensure a particular narrow focus you might, as Steve suggests, start a thread in a personal practice journal.

[Shadow_self]

36 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

It obviously escaped your notice that this thread was posted in the Buddhist section... 

 

Purity (Pali: Vissudhi) is an important concept within much of Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism, although the implications of the resultant moral purification may be viewed differently in the varying traditions. The aim is to purify the personality of the Buddhist practitioner so that all moral and character defilements and defects (kleśas such as anger, ignorance and lust) are wiped away and nirvana can be obtained.

 

 

Did it escape your notice that he was talking about diet? I realise that could come across as rather cheeky, but its meant in a friendly way,

 

The three vehicles of Buddhism all take different approaches and stances here

 

Consuming meat does not equate to the taking of life, and that's a mistake people often make when conflating the first precept with diet

 

Hunting, now that is a different story entirely. Karma is not as straightforward as people like to think.

[EFreethought]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

A short story.  Years ago a friend and I shared a hotel room.  Upon first entering the room, my friend turned on the TV loudly and then went to the bathroom.  I didn't get it -- why turn on the TV when he wasn't going to watch?  Turns out he hoped the sound would drown out any sounds he might make defecating.  As someone with a great deal of experience going to the bathroom myself, I'm familiar with the range of sounds occasioned by the act.  How odd that we are embarrassed by our animal natures. 

 

OT: I came across a YouTube channel where some of the videos are of the host mocking videos pushing these alpha-male warrior boot camps. I think when I do my business I will start grunting and yelling loudly to keep pushing, help me get in touch with my warrior spirit.

 

[Lairg]

13 hours ago, Nintendao said:

how could you tell?

 

I can feel emotions in humans and various other intelligent entities.    

 

 

Edited February 7, 2023 by Lairg

[Lairg]

Not all humans are well-suited to being vegetarian.    My ex tried for some years but eventually discovered that biologically she was not getting all the nutrition she needed.

 

[C T]

The topic is "Vegetarianism" 

 

It's a huge spectrum. 

 

Except for one or two posts, the rest have been pretty much on topic, no?

[kakapo]

8 hours ago, Shadow_self said:

 

There's a lot more that could be said if I wasn't quadruple checking my posts so as not to tread on toes (too much anyway)  

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by kakapo

[kakapo]

What are everyone's thoughts on cultured meat, milk, and eggs?

 

Would it feel wrong morally to consume meat, milk, and eggs if there was no animal, and no brain?

[Lairg]

Long ago I was in a group in the Netherlands and the hosts had put on a nice meal but with no vegetarian options.  From politeness I ate the meat and at the same time sent love and apology to the group soul of that species.  I quite clearly had a positive reponse from the entity.

 

Thus politeness worked in both directions

 

 

[Nahfets]

There are several angles we can approach this argument from.

1. Difference between intentional and unintentional harm:

Vegans don't demand products that inherently involve violence (i.e. there are ways to source vegan foods without violence and exploitation, while non-vegans foods absolutely must involve violence and exploitation in some way).

2. Veganism minimises crop deaths:
While vegans absolutely should acknowledge that their lifestyles do cause harm, the solution to the practical solution to the problem of animals dying in crop harvesting is not to consume a diet that requires around 10 times more crops (due to the crops used to raised livestock) and maximises land usage, and then on top of that support the largest act of systematic oppression and violence in the history of this planet (2 billion animals murdered every single week via the meat, dairy, egg, leather, wool, and fish industries). There are also a lot of myths that go around that suggest vegans are actually responsible for more animal deaths than meat eaters. The Flaming Vegan debunks this myth excellently, using credible resources, in an article you can read here.

3. The farms of the world are run by non-vegans:
Anything to do with farming, currently, will have some form of harm involved, because of this Carnist food system we live under. If vegans ran the farms of the world, which will happen if we strive towards a vegan world, such practices as pesticide use and shooting "pests" will be eliminated entirely.

4. A certain amount of harm will inevitably be caused in order to maintain civilisation:
Unfortunately, whatever we do as humans to build an even half-decent and functioning society, there will ultimately be some collateral damage as a result of that. For example, we support the construction industry, despite the fact this causes guaranteed deaths every year. Essentially, telling a vegan their actions are as bad as a non-vegan's because of crop deaths, would be like telling someone who lives in a house that their actions are as bad as someone who pays a hitman to murder people, simply because construction is extremely dangerous results in guaranteed deaths every single year.

[Mandrake]

I think it could be a good idea in maybe in this thread or in the future  to split away the philosophical side to a different thread as there are a lot of hard positions there that get people engaged. Barnaby's query is more interesting for me, and more prone to novel reflections. In the end I think Barnaby wanted input and advice from personal experience that would help in cultivation, and not any grandstanding in mouth-based moral systems.

I would have responses in both categories but prefer to stay away as it is now.

[Camellia]

Oh one thing I thought I might add @Barnaby, many years ago I bought a book called "3 Bowls: Vegetarian Recipes from an American Zen Buddhist Monastery". I still have it and the recipes are quite good! You will probably have to scale down most of the recipes though - they are cooking for an entire monastery, haha. 

 

There are also a bunch of little tidbits about Buddhist practice sprinkled throughout the pages. It's a really nice little book. 🙂

Edited February 8, 2023 by Camellia

[Barnaby]

Thanks to all who made useful suggestions.

 

On reflection, I should probably have titled the thread differently.

 

You live and learn 

[Lairg]

7 hours ago, Camellia said:

..I bought a book called "3 Bowls: Vegetarian Recipes from an American Zen Buddhist Monastery"...

 

My own practice is to open the fridge and touch various foods to see if my body wants them at that time.

 

I have noticed patterns.  For example, if I have some cheese at lunch, then my body almost always will refuse that particular cheese at dinner.  Then I will test other cheeses in the fridge.

 

Similarly with red wine.  My body rarely likes two sequential glasses of the same wine.   I use a very small wine glass - partly to allow that. 

 

Sometimes my body does not want even white wine and I have to drink a couple of glasses of purified water before my body is ready for wine.  The climate is quite warm so dehydration can be an issue for the body.

 

With practice I have not needed to touch.  I just put my attention to the item and my body (sacral chakra spirit) will tell me.

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Lairg

[Nungali]

On 2/8/2023 at 2:40 AM, Nahfets said:

Actually most religions back in the day supported veganism or vegetarianism tbh.

 

Back in what day and in what religion ?

 

PIE religions and  Siberian shamanism are the source of most religions today ; both where herders originally and, of course , ate what they herded .  Moving along with   what religions came out of these sources :

 

Zoroastrianism ;  herders and meat eaters , although they made legislation for animal reforms / treatment . They heavily influenced  Judasim, Christianity, Islam, Baha'i - all meat eaters the other branch developed Vedic religion, meat eaters until much later in their history and only some of them  .  The other stream ; reformed Bon , meat eaters .  Buddhists ?  some vego some meat eaters .

 

Then there is the far eastern stream ; Shinto, Confucianism , Taoism .... vego ?

 

So : Back in what day and in what religion ?

 

 

 

On 2/8/2023 at 2:40 AM, Nahfets said:

 

 

 

 

 

although most of which has been watered down. You're being rather defensive and claiming that I act cultish now, when pointing out the obvious thing that people who call themselves animal lovers and refute to stop harming animals and acts aggressive at vegans just for doing their thing, is about unconscious shame and cognitive dissonance. Because it is, and has nothing to do with the millions of compassionate vegans and vegetarians around the world that have fought for animal rights and environmental issues for a long time now. Dismissing their points just because you've met some radical vegans is again just pointing to your own need to keep up your logical fallacy. 

You are really acting very childish now and lowering the bar for engaging is this discussion by a degree which I will not partake in as my point in refuting the wishful thinking and poor arguments have been made now for further readers of the thread to make up their own minds, not based on the meat industry's propaganda you are regurgitating. 

 

 

[Nahfets]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Back in what day and in what religion ?

 

PIE religions and  Siberian shamanism are the source of most religions today ; both where herders originally and, of course , ate what they herded .  Moving along with   what religions came out of these sources :

 

Zoroastrianism ;  herders and meat eaters , although they made legislation for animal reforms / treatment . They heavily influenced  Judasim, Christianity, Islam, Baha'i - all meat eaters the other branch developed Vedic religion, meat eaters until much later in their history and only some of them  .  The other stream ; reformed Bon , meat eaters .  Buddhists ?  some vego some meat eaters .

 

Then there is the far eastern stream ; Shinto, Confucianism , Taoism .... vego ?

 

So : Back in what day and in what religion ?

 

 

 

 

Civilization is much older than we're taught. it rebooted after the meteor struck 12.800 Years ago and after that the longskulls started to become hunted and murdered in most areas where they settled although they did manage to start some of their civilization again in places like egypt but most got lost so it was a shadow of what it used to be. 

This is just a fraction of the story of course much more are coming to light still. Even some pointing to advanced civilization dating back 100.000-300.000 Years ago even. 

 

We know very little about these periods and the cataclysms that shaped how we live today, but acting like reindeer hearders and goatherders were the source of our knowledge and history is ignorant of our actual past. 

[Taomeow]

1 hour ago, Nahfets said:

Civilization is much older than we're taught. it rebooted after the meteor struck 12.800 Years ago and after that the longskulls started to become hunted and murdered in most areas where they settled although they did manage to start some of their civilization again in places like egypt but most got lost so it was a shadow of what it used to be. 

This is just a fraction of the story of course much more are coming to light still. Even some pointing to advanced civilization dating back 100.000-300.000 Years ago even. 

 

We know very little about these periods and the cataclysms that shaped how we live today, but acting like reindeer hearders and goatherders were the source of our knowledge and history is ignorant of our actual past. 

 

The Younger Dryas comet catastrophe hypothesis, for those who accept it, actually speculates that it wiped out some Ice Age societies.  "Controversial" authors like Graham Hancock do go so far as to assert it destroyed an Ice Age civilization in North America.  While that's not impossible, I would really like to know what vegetarians may have eaten during an Ice Age which, for better or for worse, lasted for most of the last 400 000 years before the recent (indeed about 12 000 years young) warming.  So most of the last 400 000 years of our species' history (minus the most recent and evolutionally insignificant % of that time) were spent under conditions similar to, or more severe than, what the remaining reindeer herders in the tundra still live under today.  I suggest you inquire into what they eat. 

(Hint: not bananas.)  

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by Taomeow

[Nahfets]

48 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

The Younger Dryas comet catastrophe hypothesis, for those who accept it, actually speculates that it wiped out some Ice Age societies.  "Controversial" authors like Graham Hancock do go so far as to assert it destroyed an Ice Age civilization in North America.  While that's not impossible, I would really like to know what vegetarians may have eaten during an Ice Age which, for better or for worse, lasted for most of the last 400 000 years before the recent (indeed about 12 000 years young) warming.  So most of the last 400 000 years of our species' history (minus the most recent and evolutionally insignificant % of that time) were spent under conditions similar to, or more severe than, what the remaining reindeer herders in the tundra still live under today.  I suggest you inquire into what they eat. 

(Hint: not bananas.)  

 

 

 

You call it a hypothesis, we have the actual meteor on display in my hometown and our scientist has used lidar alongside NASA to uncover the crater beneath the ice. 

It is not a hypothesis it is scientific quackery and denial that is rampant in big academia today my friend.. 

Not only this they have shunned and ignored the people doing actual science and DNA screening on the longskulls because it doesn't suit their paradigm and most of them are afraid of their own precious careers to have a shread of decency. 

And no all of the planet wasn't covered in climates like the tundras why would you think that.

Iceacges don't mean all continents and places are cold it just means expansion of the polar sheets

 

[Nungali]

5 hours ago, Nahfets said:

Civilization is much older than we're taught.

 

What has that got to do with it ? You where first   claiming and I was later responding about religion, not civilization .

 

You dont know what you are talking about , if you did , you could say what 'civilization' Siberian Shamanism comes from . 

 

 

5 hours ago, Nahfets said:

it rebooted after the meteor struck 12.800 Years ago and after that the longskulls started to become hunted and murdered in most areas where they settled although they did manage to start some of their civilization again in places like egypt but most got lost so it was a shadow of what it used to be. 

 

Ah ... another 'youtube professor' eh ?  A fan of Mr. Handcock ?

 

I suppose this is your answer to my request about a date for   your  'back in the day ' .   And how do you know these people had a vegetarian religion ?  Let me guess ,  some 'theosophical mystic' with 'astral vision'  told you . 

 

5 hours ago, Nahfets said:

This is just a fraction of the story of course much more are coming to light still. Even some pointing to advanced civilization dating back 100.000-300.000 Years ago even. 

 

Gosh !   really ?  .... tell me more .   And you know these 300 , 000 year old religions where vegetarian too ? 

 

 

5 hours ago, Nahfets said:

 

We know very little about these periods and the cataclysms that shaped how we live today,

 

 

Oh ? Okay, so then you DONT know what religions they had or if they where vegetarian then .

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Nahfets said:

 

 

but acting like reindeer hearders and goatherders were the source of our knowledge and history is ignorant of our actual past. 

 

It is you who are actually the ignorant one here . And to cover up how you little you know, you have adopted modern new age bullshit to cover up the lack of knowledge you have about our sources of religion and belief .

 

' Actual past '  ....     

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

The Younger Dryas comet catastrophe hypothesis, for those who accept it, actually speculates that it wiped out some Ice Age societies.  "Controversial" authors like Graham Hancock do go so far as to assert it destroyed an Ice Age civilization in North America.  While that's not impossible, I would really like to know what vegetarians may have eaten during an Ice Age which, for better or for worse, lasted for most of the last 400 000 years before the recent (indeed about 12 000 years young) warming.  So most of the last 400 000 years of our species' history (minus the most recent and evolutionally insignificant % of that time) were spent under conditions similar to, or more severe than, what the remaining reindeer herders in the tundra still live under today.  I suggest you inquire into what they eat. 

(Hint: not bananas.)  

 

 

 

 

I bet he is going to say ..... "Thats why the  religiously vegetarian longskulls died out . " 

[liminal_luke]

As a small gesture of respect towards Nahfets, Luke grabbed a vegan quinua bowl and settled back to watch the thread.  In his opinion, a person would have to eat a lot of bitter greens to out-erudite the local feline scholar.  Not to mention that irrepressible Nungali.  (Luke had often hoped Nungali could be repressed but no...wasnt gonna happen.)  With luck, perhaps the thread would turn to the topic of present day climate change.  No, no...surely that would provoke more drama than his carnitas-loving heart could take.    

Edited February 9, 2023 by liminal_luke