Vegetarianism

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Nahfets said:

 

You call it a hypothesis, we have the actual meteor on display in my hometown and our scientist has used lidar alongside NASA to uncover the crater beneath the ice. 

It is not a hypothesis it is scientific quackery and denial that is rampant in big academia today my friend.. 

Not only this they have shunned and ignored the people doing actual science and DNA screening on the longskulls because it doesn't suit their paradigm and most of them are afraid of their own precious careers to have a shread of decency. 

And no all of the planet wasn't covered in climates like the tundras why would you think that.

Iceacges don't mean all continents and places are cold it just means expansion of the polar sheets

 

 

No , world wide average temps went down .   Now you are going to claim 'science quakery' on that , arn't you ?

 

Isnt it 'curious' that on the one hand you cite science  ( actually  " our scientist  " .... ?  one assumes your 'home town' has its own scientist   )  lidar and NASA when it backs up your prejudices ... yet if it doesnt it automatically becomes  invalid and  "  doesn't suit their paradigm and most of them are afraid of their own precious careers to have a shread of decency  "  .... except for 'your scientist ' .

 

I dont suppose you realize how ridiculous that sounds to everyone else except you ?

 

 

 

.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Nungali

[Nungali]

7 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

As a small gesture of respect towards Nahfets, Luke grabbed a vegan quinua bowl and settled back to watch the thread.  In his opinion, a person would have to eat a lot of bitter greens to out-erudite the local feline scholar.  Not to mention that irrepressible Nungali.  (Luke had often hoped Nungali could be repressed but no...wasnt gonna happen.)  With luck, perhaps the thread would turn to the topic of present day climate change.  No, no...surely that would provoke more drama than his carnitas-loving heart could take.    

 

 

Well  well well  ... who would have thought our nice little liminal luke was secretly out to repress people !

 

Okay out comes my list ;

 

The Catholic School and religion.

My big brother .

The State .

The Attorney- General.

That neo-Nazi gang.

Undercover white supremacy Australians.

Marga Polenka

 

(note; all unsuccessful )

 

and now  ( writes in )   ....    'Liminal Luke ' .

 

[Nahfets]

14 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

No , world wide average temps went down .   Now you are going to claim 'science quakery' on that , arn't you ?

 

Isnt it 'curious' that on the one hand you cite science  ( actually  " our scientist  " .... ?  one assumes your 'home town' has its own scientist   )  lidar and NASA when it backs up your prejudices ... yet if it doesnt it automatically becomes  invalid and  "  doesn't suit their paradigm and most of them are afraid of their own precious careers to have a shread of decency  "  .... except for 'your scientist ' .

 

I dont suppose you realize how ridiculous that sounds to everyone else except you ?

 

 

 

.

 

 

You still refute the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs then alongside your fellow creationist as this is the kind of arguments they used to shun the new science back then too?

Because temperatures went down 12.800 Years ago it doesn't mean all of Earth was made into a tundra, listen to what you actually wrote. 

 

This amount of ignorance this subject has brought up, is just too much for me to spend my energy dealing with. The evidence is there, time will tell. 

 

https://astronomy.com/news/2019/02/theres-a-second-impact-crater-under-greenland

The asteroid is called Agpalilik in Greenlandic

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Nahfets

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Nahfets said:

 

 

You still refute the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs then alongside your fellow creationist as this is the kind of arguments they used to shun the new science back then too?

 

No, I am refuting your claims of  ancient unknown vegetarian religion . Not asteroid impacts . You seem to be having trouble focusing on  your own subject matter here .

 

 

8 hours ago, Nahfets said:

Because temperatures went down 12.800 Years ago it doesn't mean all of Earth was made into a tundra, listen to what you actually wrote. 

 

I would if written words made sound .  What I wrote was that average Earth temperatures went down ....  it was YOU refuting that all of the Earth was not frozen over . Now you have somehow morphed that into refuting a claim I never made about all of the Earth turning into Tundra .

 

( I know these types ; build a straw man attack it, make a pathetic unconnected argument and when shown to be wrong - off they go in a huff 'refusing to talk to you ' anymore   

 

 

8 hours ago, Nahfets said:

 

This amount of ignorance this subject has brought up, is just too much for me to spend my energy dealing with.

 

 

Yep, there he goes .

 

Bye -bye .

 

 

8 hours ago, Nahfets said:

 

The evidence is there, time will tell. 

 

https://astronomy.com/news/2019/02/theres-a-second-impact-crater-under-greenland

The asteroid is called Agpalilik in Greenlandic

 

 

I know there is a crater there . They are all over the place .  The one you linked to is old ;  "  age estimates for the new crater might be more like a hundred thousand to a hundred million years old. "   

 

No doubt they had a 100,000,000 year old vegetarian religion too !

[Nahfets]

On 10.2.2023 at 8:52 PM, Nungali said:

 

No, I am refuting your claims of  ancient unknown vegetarian religion . Not asteroid impacts . You seem to be having trouble focusing on  your own subject matter here .

 

 

 

I would if written words made sound .  What I wrote was that average Earth temperatures went down ....  it was YOU refuting that all of the Earth was not frozen over . Now you have somehow morphed that into refuting a claim I never made about all of the Earth turning into Tundra .

 

( I know these types ; build a straw man attack it, make a pathetic unconnected argument and when shown to be wrong - off they go in a huff 'refusing to talk to you ' anymore   

 

 

 

 

Yep, there he goes .

 

Bye -bye .

 

 

 

I know there is a crater there . They are all over the place .  The one you linked to is old ;  "  age estimates for the new crater might be more like a hundred thousand to a hundred million years old. "   

 

No doubt they had a 100,000,000 year old vegetarian religion too !

 

 

I said all of Earth wasn't covered in tundra. You replied NO temperatures went down. I said this doesn't mean this happened then you blame me for making a strawman because you again tried to backtrack on your arguments. 

I said civilization is much older and were much more compassionate than now many of which I presume like you see the spiritual liniages in India and China today, were most like also vegan or vegetarian. One can only guess though, but refuting the evidence from all over the world from long skulls to meteor impact just makes you sound foolish really.

No the crater is not that old carbon dating in layers around shows nanodiamonds from around 12800 Years ago, the new one they found might be older hard to say but the one we're discussing is not that old.

https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agpalilik

https://www.science.org/content/article/massive-crater-under-greenland-s-ice-points-climate-altering-impact-time-humans

You're dragging this on into the embarrassing 

[Nungali]

No , I replied ;  " No.  Temperatures went down. "   not   'No temperatures went down '     

 

I am not backtracking, you just cant read properly .  I see you are pointing out that 'civilization is older than now '   .     Really ?       Seems you cant write  properly either .  Now you mention 'longskull evidence from around the world'  with no other reference to that at all, even what you mean by it and what the hell such stupid conspiracy crap relates to vegetarianism through history (like you are trying to claim) ... and now, that older socieites where more compassionate than present ....  all without a shred of evidence  or even intelligent observation - just a half understood and explained mishmash of internet and you tube snippets bought together to to support some self supported idea of yours that the world was  compassionate and vegetarian  before the 'horrible nasty carnivorous present. '

 

and you say I am the one making this embarrassing ? 

[doc benway]

Enough bickering

Time to let it go or I will close the thread

Thank you

[Indiken]

@steve

Develop forum software so that certain user would be able to be blocked by moderators from threads, instead of closing whole thread. If topic is valid, then a new thread sooner or late may be created again.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Indiken

[Nungali]

Why ?   When a simple request has the same effect .

 

Not that I want to discourage Steve from tasking up the challenge.;

 

 

Daobum's ' new forum software development'  facilities ;

 

[silent thunder]

Life is sustained by consuming other life.  There's no way round it.

The decaying life in your gut at this moment, fuels your life force.

 

On a lark, vegans, try checking the ingredient contents of your organic potting soil. 

Spoiler alert.  It's not vegan, or vegetarian.

 

Find your balance and live it, if you're able.

Or think nothing of it and live as well.

We manifest here, in this process that systemically requires we consume other life to maintain our own.

Live in dissonance or not as you will. 

 

 

Currently my wife of 33 years can eat no food of any kind.  It's been several weeks of next to no food being tolerated.

No matter how bland or simple, without severe crippling pain and possible hospitalization.  

 

She's lost 35+ pounds and there's no sign of any beneficial response to the most powerful medicines available to treat the most chronic of cases of what she has...  She's literally starving in our home from this disease and I'd give anything to find any type of life she could consume to support her life force at this point.

 

Life is Life.  Decay fuels Life.  Without that, one whithers and decays themself.

C'est la vie bitches!

[Nungali]

[doc benway]

23 hours ago, Indiken said:

@steve

Develop forum software so that certain user would be able to be blocked by moderators from threads, instead of closing whole thread. If topic is valid, then a new thread sooner or late may be created again.

 

 

Excellent idea but I don’t know the first thing about software engineering nor have the time or interest in learning. If you find or develop such a product, please let me know.  

 

If participants in this thread would like to continue a civil discussion about climate change and meteors and so forth, they are welcome to start another thread on the topic. This thread was intended to be about Buddhist aspects of a vegetarian diet.

[doc benway]

@silent thunder

 

So sorry to hear of your situation.

My love and support go out to both you and your wife my friend.

🙏🏼

 

And I loved your parting shot!

🤣

 

[liminal_luke]

@silent thunder

 

Oh my gosh, that sounds so hard -- my heart goes out.  I know your wife has your powerful love, not a calorically dense source of sustenance perhaps, but nourishing just the same.  Wishing your family health and healing.

Edited February 14, 2023 by liminal_luke

[Mark Foote]

There are a couple of places in the Pali sermons where Gautama spoke of how disciples should approach eating meat, if meat was tendered as the meal offering.  They were expected to eat what was offered, but they should regard it as though they were eating their own children, he said.

Donner party got nothing on him.

 

There's a story in the Mahaparinibbana sermon about a farmer who offered a meal to Gautama and some of the order.  The meal included a pig.  Gautama said he saw no one else in the room with the karma to eat the pig--he was the only one who ate it.  My understanding is that the pig had eaten mushrooms, and this was the ultimate cause of Gautama's death, about three months' later.

 

I was ova-lacto vegetarian in college, then vegan for awhile.  I went back to eating small quantities of eggs and canned fish because my health seemed to be suffering, and my dreams seemed to indicate a problem (my cat at the bottom of a well, for example).

Kobun said vegetables scream when you pull them out of the ground, you just don't hear it.  He said occasionally a fish would jump onto his plate, that's how he described the meat he ate.  

 

I think about returning to ova-lacto vegetarianism, eggs and cheese, but I know that even the sustainable, organic farmers have to kill the chickens and cows when they're no longer productive, if they want to make a living farming.  

I realized a long time ago that I'm a rat in a very large lab cage, here in the Western world (pretty much the whole world, now).  Make use of the time and try to heal, that's what it comes down to.

 

 

Edited February 18, 2023 by Mark Foote

[stirling]

There are myriad reasons people become vegetarian. I am ovo-lacto. Speaking for myself, I began to be averse to the taste, and in time wouldn't make it for myself, but also didn't like to think that anything might suffer for my sustenance, and vowed to reduce that as much as possible without compromising my health.

 

When I took my vows it seemed an obvious way to help honor them, and just happened to be how I was at the time anyway. It isn't necessary to be a vegetarian to be a serious practitioner (on the Buddhist path, at least) in my opinion. However, if there is guilt or shame about ANY aspect of the way we live our lives, it is helpful to stop any unnecessary habit that is generating karma for you. This is just common sense.

 

I have complete respect for any other adult who makes their choices about what they eat, and will happily sit next to you while you enjoy your steak.

[Taomeow]

I think the best thing about humans as a species is not that we're "intelligent" (I have serious doubts about that) but that we're omnivorous.  Everything else is a function of that superb adaptation.  We survived, by newer estimates, three million years of climate changes of the most drastic kind and survived precisely because we're omnivores, we had nothing else going for us, to be honest.  In the meantime, nearly all species that went extinct died out of starvation when the next climate change made their specialized food choices scarce or unavailable.  99% of species failed to adapt -- that's how many that once existed are currently extinct.  If we don't stop cooperating with some very dark life-hating entities' crusade against biodiversity (which is what "civilization" has always been about if you stop focusing on the myriad frills and distractions and look at the fundamentals instead),  I'm pretty sure we'll follow suit very shortly even if nothing else we do does us in.  

 

Found this bit I wrote elsewhere about my direct encounters with what food is like in a biodiverse environment where it still exists (albeit hanging by a thread) -- where the word "vegetarian" is applied only to the context of a special diet a vegetalista curandero observes for a specific  period of time (never forever) if a particular entheogenic plant he or she works with tells them that meat will adversely react with some of its alkaloids (no, I don't think the entheogenic plant uses that particular term, but it's that particular explanation, nothing more, nothing less):  

   

Far, far away from the touristy parts and paths, you take a boat trip to a market on a little island that serves as a trading post for the inhabitants of the surrounding villages and tribes offering a mix of farmer, forager, fisherman, and hunter-gatherer fares. The variety is stunning, from the rain forest fruits and vegetables you've never seen to humongous turtles, sold live, to freshly caught fish of many delicious kinds and even creatures that officially don't exist -- e.g. freshwater octopi -- I had them in a ceviche, I don't know why they officially don't exist... but then, there's more species of animals and plants on 1 square mile of Amazonia than in all of North America and Europe combined, and less than 1% of those have been "studied" by "science" to date.

 

There's 4,000 varieties of potatoes in existence, the ones most often encountered had bright yellow or purple flesh but they come in all colors of the rainbow and are delicious. Also countless varieties of plantains. Both are used in many dishes or just sliced flatly and lightly roasted in lard. Coconuts are huge (bigger than an adult's head), the water from a freshly opened one is a soft drink of choice in those parts, and the flesh tastes good even raw. Fish -- freshwater fish has always been my favorite, and of course the Amazon has many superb kinds I haven't even heard of elsewhere. Wrote down a few names -- paiche (which is humongous and suitable for steaks), tambaqui, jaraqui, surubim, pirarucu... wouldn't recognize which is which now, but in a local ceviche, you could encounter all of them in one bowl.

 

Rainforest spices and hot peppers of unfamiliar varieties, some of them brutal. A fruit of the palm tree that only grows by the water or almost in the water and only in that location, aguaje -- they started selling that as a supplement here of late, "to enlarge breast size," the advertisements go. I got addicted to aguaje while there, not for that ridiculous purpose but because it's the easiest, most satisfying breakfast food ever -- it tastes something like a mix of grilled cheese and roasted walnuts, and is indeed locally famous for regulating female hormones to perfection. (Men won't be harmed by it either, but women make a point of eating it regularly, often daily, and everybody's skin and hair positively glow from within, which they attribute to that fruit.) And for dessert, my favorite was a cake made with fresh passion fruit, which they called alfresco de maracuya. And in the city, there was a restaurant favored by the small community of expats, the Yellow Rose of Texas, where you could order either local or familiar American food, both excellent at the time (don't know about now.)

[old3bob]

Great reminisce Tao Meow!  Btw, I saw a documentary about the burning of forests in the Amazon areas that  showed the horrible levels of destruction going on there and for a long time now!  It definitely sounded like far fewer forms of life and mankind will be able to adapt to what is going on!

[Mark Foote]

7 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

I got addicted to aguaje while there, not for that ridiculous purpose but because it's the easiest, most satisfying breakfast food ever -- it tastes something like a mix of grilled cheese and roasted walnuts, and is indeed locally famous for regulating female hormones to perfection. (Men won't be harmed by it either, but women make a point of eating it regularly, often daily, and everybody's skin and hair positively glow from within, which they attribute to that fruit.) 

 

Phytoestrogens, maybe more:

 

Therefore, we purified moriche palm extract (MPE) and identified compounds exhibiting estrogenic and antiandrogenic activities.

(Estrogenic and antiandrogenic activities of methoxyflavans isolated from the fruit of Mauritia Flexuosa (Moriche Palm), https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33340139/)

 

 

In Western, Northern Hemisphere nations, a woman's production of progesterone tends toward zero after menopause, and without the balancing hormone, estrogen has a tendency to be carcinogenic.  At least, that's what Dr. John Lee found in his research and in his practice, in Marin, CA. 

 

Topical progesterone (not progestins)--available at your local Whole Foods.

 

"Antiandrogenic"--had to look that one up:
 

Antiandrogens, also known as androgen antagonists or testosterone blockers, are a class of drugs that prevent androgens like testosterone and dihydrotestosterone from mediating their biological effects in the body. They act by blocking the androgen receptor and/or inhibiting or suppressing androgen production.

(Wikipedia, "Antiandrogen")

 

 

Chemistry aside, I love your descriptions, Taomeow.  Only reason I ever traveled was because I got a job as a travel agent ("no experience necessary", my lucky day).  Never an adventurous traveler like you, but my caution served my clients at the travel agency well, they were maybe too adventurous in their planning.

[Iri]

From my understanding, vegetarianism historically appeared where it could be afforded rather than strictly tied to the religion. Compare lush tropical lands where fruit and veg were unlimited with Tibet or Mongolia - both don’t grow crops and obviously didn’t have such imports till recently. Even now, great deal of their people live quite traditionally, with no easy access to a supermarket. No surprise that even Dalai Lama is not vegetarian.

 

As for plants, just because they are more different from us structurally than animals (no nerves etc) doesn’t mean they are less alive - or less sentient. I believe there are more ways to sentience than just nerves. Otherwise it seems quite human-centric to me:

- ones without nerves can’t feel

- ones who can’t let me know they are suffering - not suffering 

- ones who don’t have human-like hands can’t evolve into intelligent creatures 

etc etc

A bit of a side note - I know a few communities who were historically plant-free until the recent globalisation. It’s the already mentioned Mongolia, and peoples of Northern Asia. But I don’t know any nation/tribe that was historically meat-free. If you do - please share!

 

 

 

[Ajay0]

Buddhism emphasizes maintaining good health as a duty, considering its impact on ensuring a strong and clear mind.

 

Vegetarianism has been validated by scientific research to be associated with lower rates of cancer and cardio-vascular diseases, the two biggest killers in the planet today.

 

https://www.heart.org/en/news/2021/08/04/eating-a-plant-based-diet-at-any-age-may-lower-cardiovascular-risk

 

https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2013-01-30-vegetarianism-can-reduce-risk-heart-disease-third

 

https://www.mdanderson.org/publications/focused-on-health/vegetarian-diet-and-cancer-risk.h31Z1591413.html

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-02-25/vegetarians-have-a-lower-risk-of-cancer-than-meat-eaters-study-suggests

 

This is important as Cancer has become the second leading cause of death, second only to cardiovascular diseases in the western world and globally.
 

Vegetarianism has also been linked with lower rates of diabetes, dementia and decreased symptoms of asthma..
 

https://www.pcrm.org/news/health-nutrition/vegetarians-have-lower-dementia-risk

 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6153574/

 

Vegetarian diet is also known to prevent osteoporosis associated with poor bone health, enables better mental health and reduced depression and anxiety levels...
 

https://www.healthline.com/health/becoming-vegetarian#risks

 

On the basis of health reasons alone , I would say vegetarianism is a better bet to ensure longevity and good health necessary for a clear and strong mind. Plus they are safer on the wallet considering the increasing costs associated with healthcare world-wide. 

 

I would say it makes no sense to work your entire life till retirement, and then get your savings wiped out for expensive health care afterwards.

[Lairg]

It may depend on the individual.  For example my genetics do not deal with with high levels of iron so not eating meat is better for me.

 

My ex had low levels of iron and eventually started to eat meat again.

 

Of course eating meat from terrified animals may generate a variety of health-related issues

 

 

[Iri]

4 hours ago, Ajay0 said:

Buddhism emphasizes maintaining good health as a duty, considering its impact on ensuring a strong and clear mind.

Without arguing much on the topic, I’ll just say that vegetarianism is far from the most healthy options a human can take.

Avoiding processed food, both plant- and animal-based - yes

Avoiding unhealthy food, both plant- and animal-based (pork, lamb, sugar) - yes

Maintaining the right doses of certain foods so that they do good instead of harm (like, meat once a week instead of each day, or 100ml alcohol instead of a pint ) - yes

Avoiding plant-based food grown in a dirty environment (like cities) - yes

Exercising regularly and correctly - yes

Avoiding what kills you directly (smoking, radiation) - yes

Keeping peace of your mind - yes

Having passions to live for or being in search of them - yes

 

Good luck maintaining good health as a vegetarian if one goes for McPlant and Cola every day, doesn’t move much and doesn’t have light in their mind.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Iri

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, Iri said:

Without arguing much on the topic, I’ll just say that vegetarianism is far from the most healthy options a human can take.

Avoiding processed food, both plant- and animal-based - yes

Avoiding unhealthy food, both plant- and animal-based (pork, lamb, sugar) - yes

Maintaining the right doses of certain foods so that they do good instead of harm (like, meat once a week instead of each day, or 100ml alcohol instead of a pint ) - yes

Avoiding plant-based food grown in a dirty environment (like cities) - yes

Exercising regularly and correctly - yes

Avoiding what kills you directly (smoking, radiation) - yes

Keeping peace of your mind - yes

Having passions to live for or being in search of them - yes

 

Good luck maintaining good health as a vegetarian if one goes for McPlant and Cola every day, doesn’t move much and doesn’t have light in their mind.

 

Some very good points here.

One challenge in the 21st century is finding air, water, and food that are unpolluted. The entire planet is rapidly becoming a "dirty environment," at least the areas most of us occupy and can access and the areas and processes from which we can obtain what we need. So much of our food and water is routinely stripped of nutrients and tainted in some fashion, especially water which should be a rich source of minerals but for most of us is either filtered, distilled, or modified such that it actually leeches minerals from our system rather than providing them. 

 

There is nothing necessarily healthy about a vegetarian lifestyle, nor unhealthy about an omnivorous lifestyle IMO.

The devil is in the details, as they say. 

I mostly abstain from eating animals and birds for humanitarian reasons, not health reasons. 

It's simply a personal choice based on the horrific conditions we create for the creatures whose lives support ours.

When we look around us it is clear that all living creatures consume other living things, it is simply the way of things.

I don't disagree that there is a sentience of sorts in all living things, all things that can sustain us, and I am knowingly biased towards protecting mammals and birds from the terrors of humanity more so than sea creatures and flora. Am I a hypocrite? Probably so.

 

I recently had a wonderful meal at a small vegan restaurant and got to chatting with the chef/owner and her mother.

She had a background in chemistry and culinary arts. She went into the plant-based food industry and was so put off by the processes and products that she left it behind and decided to find her own way. Her feelings about the plant-based food industry are quite negative from a health and sustainability perspective. She nows crafts beautiful vegan food without trying to imitate meat but rather featuring and promoting fresh ingredients for what they offer as they are.